In the US, it seems to me that active listening is not encouraged, outside of music study. I find it odd that the average person can watch a movie and subsequently analyze it in a basic framework of plot, arc, protagonist and so forth—-yet when it comes to music there is ignorance and a lack of vocabulary.
I'm not sure if the average person has the patience to sit through an entire movie anymore either, and not just in the US. Smartphones and social media have shortened our attention spans by making us crave for quick dopamine hits. I used to be able to watch an entire movie uninterrupted, whereas now if the movie is not engaging, I tend to reach for my phone.
Music enjoyment has also taken a back seat, and I usually put it on in the background while I'm focusing on something else, instead of actively listening to it. I think the shift from music being released as part of thematic albums on physical media to individual tracks on online services is part of the reason for this. The average music listener just hits shuffle on a random playlist rather than focusing on a specific band, album or even genre.
I would like to see Quentin Tarantino take on current-day issues. Who else is making movies worth watching any more besides Martin Scorsese? All the good movies have been made. Forbidden Planet was based on Shakespeare and it still shines. Generative AI tools show that it comes down to plots. I watched that Star Wars as a 1950s Panavision sci-fi at least a dozen times.
Education in the US has devolved to the point where music appreciation is only taught in the most prestigious of private primary and secondary schools, and perhaps in the public schools of wealthy neighborhoods.
I’d like to find out what you think is really the problem. Do you believe inner-city schools aren’t funded enough to sit kids down and make them listen to Bach? Do you think kids in the rough parts of Milwaukee are just waiting for a bright-eyed teacher to play the right tape for the class? Every one of those kids has access to YouTube. Spotify is free. It isn’t the 1980s anymore, and “lack of access” isn’t why some groups like classical while others prefer drill music. Universal global access to high art and the tools of cultural creation have dispelled a great many blank-slate myths.
Is this anecdotal? Feels like we live in very different worlds if so. But if this is maybe just more from watching the news, I can understand why you believe it.
But just know we are all out here, outside the tubes, living in a society! Its messy, but people are still people, and most everyone is kind if you just talk to them.
You simply must not just watch the news or viral Karen videos or whatever and use it all as your only basis for such an utter fatalism. Not for any moral reason or anything else, but truly just for your own emotional well being. You will have happier days.
As one who has been around for a while, has lived in various US and European cities both big and small, and who currently lives in a pleasant mid-sized city nonetheless plagued by our uniquely American problems, this comment strikes me as the critters in Animal Farm discussing how much better life got after the Revolution. The implicit message of menace towards those who disagree is no less clear.
Im sorry that you felt menace. Good luck with all your problems! Happiness is overrated anyway, its better to be realistic about human nature right? One day I'm sure ill be as wise and worldly as you, I just need to shake off all this unfounded optimism! Don't worry, you have helped with that a little I suspect, so thank you so much for the dose of hard reality.
I went to 10 of them this year, as I was travelling from Hokkaido to Kyushu throughout a couple of months. Found one accidentally in Sapporo, then actively looked for others in every city. It’s weird how I can recall every single one of them from memory too, as they were all simple, but genuinely a good time (and slightly different in terms of vibes and clientele it would attract).
But it’s also sad how this would absolutely never work in NA due to commercial rent prices. Most of them seemed to be ran by an older man (70+, I’d guess). And from my chats with some of them, they owned the property as well. It was just a blissful experience to have a drink, listen to music that the owner deemed to find great, and just let your mind wander around.
One of them introduced me to some amazing jazz bands that I’ve never heard of, and talked a lot about the history of such places. Shout out to Hideki-san!
> But it’s also sad how this would absolutely never work in NA due to commercial rent prices
This and so many other things. Low rents in Japan enable small time entrepeneurship in so many ways that is impossible in NA. Derek Guy discusses this often in the context of menswear. https://x.com/dieworkwear/status/1861583359518089544
It's another example of the Housing Theory of Everything, that we're suffering in all sorts of other ways by making real estate scarce.
The only silver lining of massive population decline might as well be a crash in real estate prices. But that would be extremely painful if we went through, from an economical standpoint.
Yeah there's no real upside to that demographic decline. Travelling in some more remote places outside the major cities this most recent trip and I did see examples of abandoned and derelict homes. It is very bad and worse for society than high home prices.
The Canadian government has recently been savaged by the media and opposition for their immigration policy, being blamed for high home prices, but I suspect the policy people in the government are looking at Japan and Italy small towns emptying out and are terrified and hoping to avoid that.
It should be noted that while the population of some rural and remote towns in Japan may be declining severely, the population of Tokyo is increasing. That Tokyo is still so much remarkably more affordable than the other great major cities around the world amidst this shows that they are doing something right policy wise beside the demographic issues.
Yes, I don’t suppose there are cities in America that are both walkable and cheap enough that a jazz fan could own a small commercial property for this purpose (if they didn’t get rich from something else before).
Seems like a possibility in smaller European cities though.
Hm, maybe! I guess depends on the European city as well? It's like a perfect balance for Japan where the average age is very old, so a lot of retirees who just sip a cup of coffee for a couple of hours. But also, a cultural acceptance of flying solo, sitting by yourself at a table, basically doing nothing and listening until it's your time to go home.
To be fair though, all the places I went to were much less busier than actual local bars or designated cafes. A couple of places were just full of regulars (I went to a couple of them multiple times, and it was exactly the same people) with clienteles with average age of 60+. Obviously I have extremely limited amount of data points, so might be very wrong.
> Most of them seemed to be ran by an older man (70+, I’d guess)
Yep. Stopped by two on a trip to Japan earlier this year and one run by an old man and one by a woman apparently 80+ years old (!).
I had a great time but yeah feeling anxious in that for natural causes, many of these places will be closing very soon as their owners surely retire at some point. I do not think many have succession plans in place. Neither place I visited had any staff. The gentleman said he'd run the place by himself for decades.
It makes one want to immediately make more travel plans to Japan as a sort of depressing "last chance to see"[1] type trip to go visit more of them. I'm upset I was only able to visit two.
Much like how the amazing game centre culture of Japan has pretty much completely vanished from its 1990s era peak, I expect soon Jazz Kissas will be almost entirely impossible to find.
If it makes you feel better, in one of them (I think it was in Okayama), there were three people at the venue - owner (70s), and two girls who lived in a different city but were younger than me (mid-20s). We chatted for a while, and apparently all three in a trio, where the owner plays ob piano and the girls do tap dancing. It was the coolest thing ever for me! He even played some on piano for us. But, if I recall my conversations correctly, there was some interest from younger Japanese population to open up a similar place after they retire. Maybe there is some hope!
>would absolutely never work in NA due to commercial rent prices
Iw was my understanding that NA rent prices are much lower than in places with high population density such as Europe or Japan? Every time I am in the USA I am shocked by the amount of commercial activities that would never work in Europe because of the sheer amount of space required to host them.
Technically you're right. But, you would need to create a space that becomes a magnet so people would drive/Uber there. Personally, these places charmed me from being "small, quaint, and relaxed spot in the middle of a city" (with a couple of exceptions). And then, you only have a very small subset of people who might actually enjoy it, so an average potential client would have to drive/Uber significant amount to get there.
Another thing is, in most of the Canada (i'm more familiar with laws here, but assuming it's similar in the states), zoning laws actually would prevent such place to exist in the middle of housing compounds. I live in a city right now, but if there was such place, and it would take me about 15 minutes to drive there, I would absolutely never go other than for novelty factor. It's great, but it's not "i'll drive there by myself after work, have a drink and drive back" kinda great. If I could subway there for 20 minutes, I would probably do it once every other month. If it's 20 minute walking distance, then probably once a month.
So yeah, distance from your local neighbourhood would matter when it comes to niche businesses. But again, I might be extremely off my base, since I've never owned a cafe/bar.
It's about the last thing I'd expect to see in Venice so I think it's a pretty good idea.
Venice seemed to me a place that looks more like a massive historical theme park, while still authentic and very much in the right place, it did not strike me as normal that tourists would just find someone going about their day as an Instagram opportunity ("look that Venician is buying bread, how authentic! Let's crowd his house and take pictures!"). It didn't seem to me like a place where one is supposed to live, just supposed to go and see. A historical zoo would be a more outrageous way to put it. What can I say, I was probably part of the problem.
So I think it's a good thing any idea that makes these touristy places look like cities where people actually live, people with different interests other than what you'd expect. Just not sure if it's a profitable idea (are Italians very into Jazz?).
As a Swede, this is a pretty interesting name.
Jazz means what you expect it to mean in Swedish, but Kissa = to pee.
Jazz cigarette is an old slang for a joint, thought it had some connection.
"Kissa" (喫茶) in Japanese means tea-sipping, and sometimes it's pronounced "kiccha". Jazz Kissas today would be places to be under influence of alcohol or caffeine and concentrate on listening to jazz, but kind of often in 60s also under influence of non-legal stuff.
It's kind of interesting that we Japanese received what was originally a dance music and allocated it to our custom/culture to sit and listen like to a preaching. I guess people might had felt some kind of awe or something from it those days.
In the US, it seems to me that active listening is not encouraged, outside of music study. I find it odd that the average person can watch a movie and subsequently analyze it in a basic framework of plot, arc, protagonist and so forth—-yet when it comes to music there is ignorance and a lack of vocabulary.
I'm not sure if the average person has the patience to sit through an entire movie anymore either, and not just in the US. Smartphones and social media have shortened our attention spans by making us crave for quick dopamine hits. I used to be able to watch an entire movie uninterrupted, whereas now if the movie is not engaging, I tend to reach for my phone.
Music enjoyment has also taken a back seat, and I usually put it on in the background while I'm focusing on something else, instead of actively listening to it. I think the shift from music being released as part of thematic albums on physical media to individual tracks on online services is part of the reason for this. The average music listener just hits shuffle on a random playlist rather than focusing on a specific band, album or even genre.
I would like to see Quentin Tarantino take on current-day issues. Who else is making movies worth watching any more besides Martin Scorsese? All the good movies have been made. Forbidden Planet was based on Shakespeare and it still shines. Generative AI tools show that it comes down to plots. I watched that Star Wars as a 1950s Panavision sci-fi at least a dozen times.
Education in the US has devolved to the point where music appreciation is only taught in the most prestigious of private primary and secondary schools, and perhaps in the public schools of wealthy neighborhoods.
I’d like to find out what you think is really the problem. Do you believe inner-city schools aren’t funded enough to sit kids down and make them listen to Bach? Do you think kids in the rough parts of Milwaukee are just waiting for a bright-eyed teacher to play the right tape for the class? Every one of those kids has access to YouTube. Spotify is free. It isn’t the 1980s anymore, and “lack of access” isn’t why some groups like classical while others prefer drill music. Universal global access to high art and the tools of cultural creation have dispelled a great many blank-slate myths.
dunno if vocabulary and theory background actually is useful for appreciation/experience
btw, i'm still waiting an EDM club/rave with non damaging volume levels where no one is allowed to talk on the dance-floor
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Is this anecdotal? Feels like we live in very different worlds if so. But if this is maybe just more from watching the news, I can understand why you believe it.
But just know we are all out here, outside the tubes, living in a society! Its messy, but people are still people, and most everyone is kind if you just talk to them.
You simply must not just watch the news or viral Karen videos or whatever and use it all as your only basis for such an utter fatalism. Not for any moral reason or anything else, but truly just for your own emotional well being. You will have happier days.
As one who has been around for a while, has lived in various US and European cities both big and small, and who currently lives in a pleasant mid-sized city nonetheless plagued by our uniquely American problems, this comment strikes me as the critters in Animal Farm discussing how much better life got after the Revolution. The implicit message of menace towards those who disagree is no less clear.
Im sorry that you felt menace. Good luck with all your problems! Happiness is overrated anyway, its better to be realistic about human nature right? One day I'm sure ill be as wise and worldly as you, I just need to shake off all this unfounded optimism! Don't worry, you have helped with that a little I suspect, so thank you so much for the dose of hard reality.
I went to 10 of them this year, as I was travelling from Hokkaido to Kyushu throughout a couple of months. Found one accidentally in Sapporo, then actively looked for others in every city. It’s weird how I can recall every single one of them from memory too, as they were all simple, but genuinely a good time (and slightly different in terms of vibes and clientele it would attract).
But it’s also sad how this would absolutely never work in NA due to commercial rent prices. Most of them seemed to be ran by an older man (70+, I’d guess). And from my chats with some of them, they owned the property as well. It was just a blissful experience to have a drink, listen to music that the owner deemed to find great, and just let your mind wander around.
One of them introduced me to some amazing jazz bands that I’ve never heard of, and talked a lot about the history of such places. Shout out to Hideki-san!
> But it’s also sad how this would absolutely never work in NA due to commercial rent prices
This and so many other things. Low rents in Japan enable small time entrepeneurship in so many ways that is impossible in NA. Derek Guy discusses this often in the context of menswear. https://x.com/dieworkwear/status/1861583359518089544
It's another example of the Housing Theory of Everything, that we're suffering in all sorts of other ways by making real estate scarce.
The only silver lining of massive population decline might as well be a crash in real estate prices. But that would be extremely painful if we went through, from an economical standpoint.
Yeah there's no real upside to that demographic decline. Travelling in some more remote places outside the major cities this most recent trip and I did see examples of abandoned and derelict homes. It is very bad and worse for society than high home prices.
The Canadian government has recently been savaged by the media and opposition for their immigration policy, being blamed for high home prices, but I suspect the policy people in the government are looking at Japan and Italy small towns emptying out and are terrified and hoping to avoid that.
It should be noted that while the population of some rural and remote towns in Japan may be declining severely, the population of Tokyo is increasing. That Tokyo is still so much remarkably more affordable than the other great major cities around the world amidst this shows that they are doing something right policy wise beside the demographic issues.
Yes, I don’t suppose there are cities in America that are both walkable and cheap enough that a jazz fan could own a small commercial property for this purpose (if they didn’t get rich from something else before).
Seems like a possibility in smaller European cities though.
Hm, maybe! I guess depends on the European city as well? It's like a perfect balance for Japan where the average age is very old, so a lot of retirees who just sip a cup of coffee for a couple of hours. But also, a cultural acceptance of flying solo, sitting by yourself at a table, basically doing nothing and listening until it's your time to go home.
To be fair though, all the places I went to were much less busier than actual local bars or designated cafes. A couple of places were just full of regulars (I went to a couple of them multiple times, and it was exactly the same people) with clienteles with average age of 60+. Obviously I have extremely limited amount of data points, so might be very wrong.
> Most of them seemed to be ran by an older man (70+, I’d guess)
Yep. Stopped by two on a trip to Japan earlier this year and one run by an old man and one by a woman apparently 80+ years old (!).
I had a great time but yeah feeling anxious in that for natural causes, many of these places will be closing very soon as their owners surely retire at some point. I do not think many have succession plans in place. Neither place I visited had any staff. The gentleman said he'd run the place by himself for decades.
It makes one want to immediately make more travel plans to Japan as a sort of depressing "last chance to see"[1] type trip to go visit more of them. I'm upset I was only able to visit two.
Much like how the amazing game centre culture of Japan has pretty much completely vanished from its 1990s era peak, I expect soon Jazz Kissas will be almost entirely impossible to find.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Chance_to_See
Definitely agreed!
If it makes you feel better, in one of them (I think it was in Okayama), there were three people at the venue - owner (70s), and two girls who lived in a different city but were younger than me (mid-20s). We chatted for a while, and apparently all three in a trio, where the owner plays ob piano and the girls do tap dancing. It was the coolest thing ever for me! He even played some on piano for us. But, if I recall my conversations correctly, there was some interest from younger Japanese population to open up a similar place after they retire. Maybe there is some hope!
>would absolutely never work in NA due to commercial rent prices
Iw was my understanding that NA rent prices are much lower than in places with high population density such as Europe or Japan? Every time I am in the USA I am shocked by the amount of commercial activities that would never work in Europe because of the sheer amount of space required to host them.
Technically you're right. But, you would need to create a space that becomes a magnet so people would drive/Uber there. Personally, these places charmed me from being "small, quaint, and relaxed spot in the middle of a city" (with a couple of exceptions). And then, you only have a very small subset of people who might actually enjoy it, so an average potential client would have to drive/Uber significant amount to get there.
Another thing is, in most of the Canada (i'm more familiar with laws here, but assuming it's similar in the states), zoning laws actually would prevent such place to exist in the middle of housing compounds. I live in a city right now, but if there was such place, and it would take me about 15 minutes to drive there, I would absolutely never go other than for novelty factor. It's great, but it's not "i'll drive there by myself after work, have a drink and drive back" kinda great. If I could subway there for 20 minutes, I would probably do it once every other month. If it's 20 minute walking distance, then probably once a month.
So yeah, distance from your local neighbourhood would matter when it comes to niche businesses. But again, I might be extremely off my base, since I've never owned a cafe/bar.
I will have a space available in Venice, Italy, and I am considering giving it to someone willing to open a Jazz Kissa here.
Curious to hear if people from HN would consider this a good idea or not.
It's about the last thing I'd expect to see in Venice so I think it's a pretty good idea.
Venice seemed to me a place that looks more like a massive historical theme park, while still authentic and very much in the right place, it did not strike me as normal that tourists would just find someone going about their day as an Instagram opportunity ("look that Venician is buying bread, how authentic! Let's crowd his house and take pictures!"). It didn't seem to me like a place where one is supposed to live, just supposed to go and see. A historical zoo would be a more outrageous way to put it. What can I say, I was probably part of the problem.
So I think it's a good thing any idea that makes these touristy places look like cities where people actually live, people with different interests other than what you'd expect. Just not sure if it's a profitable idea (are Italians very into Jazz?).
Sounds like a great idea to me.
There's one in Tokyo near Jimbocho station called "Jazz BIGBOY" that I quite enjoyed. It looked like it was run entirely by one elderly gentleman.
Jimbocho also has a lot of used book stores, I highly recommend checking the area out.
Somewhat related: Manga kissa[0]
I stayed at one in Tokyo one night when I couldn't find accommodation. (Cherry blossom + uni graduation weekend = everything is booked.)
[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga_cafe
Highly suggest this book on Kissas and experiencing Japan through walking. Immersive photography as well.
https://shop.specialprojects.jp/products/kissa-by-kissa-4th-...
I saw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Giant_(manga) not long ago. So now I understand these small jazz places actually exist, thanks!
a few of these have opened in the UK but after visiting a number of them in Tokyo they just don’t work here.
people are loud and they mostly are just trendy up-market bars, rather than a place to enjoy the music.
staff in two of the places i visited in tokyo actively shushed you if you were too loud, which is actually a feature, to me
I love the idea of a Jazz Kissa, but I wonder if this would even work in the U.S. due to intellectual property/rights restrictions.
It was probably less of a problem when you owned physical copies, but I don’t see it working (legally) with digital rights restrictions.
I worked as a barista over a decade ago and our cafe paid a not insignificant amount of special CDs that were allowed for public retail use (Muzak?)
Apologies to any actual jazz fans, but whenever someone mentions a jazz club my mind goes to this... https://youtu.be/TebUMhJAKSM
As a Swede, this is a pretty interesting name. Jazz means what you expect it to mean in Swedish, but Kissa = to pee. Jazz cigarette is an old slang for a joint, thought it had some connection.
"Kissa" (喫茶) in Japanese means tea-sipping, and sometimes it's pronounced "kiccha". Jazz Kissas today would be places to be under influence of alcohol or caffeine and concentrate on listening to jazz, but kind of often in 60s also under influence of non-legal stuff. It's kind of interesting that we Japanese received what was originally a dance music and allocated it to our custom/culture to sit and listen like to a preaching. I guess people might had felt some kind of awe or something from it those days.
In English, it's close to "ass kisser" ... and I'm wondering if the pun is intentional.
My experience living in Japan tells me it's probably just a coincidence. They often seem to stumble into these!
In Finnish, kissa means cat. ”Jazz cat”, sounds pretty jazzy!
Honestly this sounds amazing.
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