The idea of a technology device just sitting there waiting for your command, without bombarding you with notifications and dinging and buzzing, and without trying to beg and convince you to do something, is so anachronistic! I'm thinking back to my Commodore 64 or my DOS PC where you just turn it on, and it just prompts you, the user who is in charge to decide what to do this time.
When I first started using computers, they were a tool like a hammer. You buy the hammer, and it sits in your toolbox until you need to use it, then you use it and put it away. You are always in total control of the hammer and it does not try to influence you in any way.
Modern software tries to invert this control loop and make you the tool. Pop up a message to remind you to use their software. Automatically pick the next item in your social feed to convince your hind brain to spend more time in their app. Convince you to turn on location services to see the weather in your current location, and then use it to track all of your movements. AI is bound to do even more of this, where it tells you in various ways how to live your life.
I don’t quite know the solution, because software that influences the user has better survival characteristics than tool software, but it feels like things are starting to come to a head where people are feeling overwhelmed by their phones’ constant demands.
Maytag service repair, Toyota service repair, etc.
While the margins and revenue are lower on durable + repair vs. planned obsolescence, the owner can sleep better at night knowing they've morally served their fellow human and not unduly destroyed the economy and the environment.
Money is a store of value. Even under communism, in POW camps, and in primate groups, trade occurs behind the scenes with unofficial currency. It's simply too strong of an idea and too engrained to wave our hands that money shouldn't exist. Whether we do it by cumbersome IOU notes or have a generalized and widely accepted interface doesn't make a difference.
But if you want to argue that regressive taxation is bad, I'm on board.
He used 'money' for 'profits' apparently. Profitmaking is the problem. Money is just a vehicle. And you can abolish profit-making through an open-source world: Projects can get started to create infinitely repairable, durable, and modular products based on standards instead of profit-making through planned obsolescence or farcical 'new features'. These products can get used and maintained by their users for decades.
But again, we are required to make money/profits/bazingas/whatchamacallit to survive. Our production tools are computers and computing. How do you survive? Just have rich parents? There needs to be an evil demonic profit maker somewhere.
Open-source / noncommercial isn't exactly a cure for the steady drip of "like and subscribe" type of harassment these days. Probably just because commercial interests have pushed user-harassment so hard for so long that the window has shifted and now users expect harassment, and because at least some makers actually feel their work is less professional if they don't engage in harassment.
Open your laptop, dismiss ubuntu wanting to update stuff; open firefox and have your adblock extension popup to tell you how many ads it blocked and to give you a helpful advertisement for updating your adblock; open a web page, any webpage, dismiss at least 3 popups for cookies, decline to signin in google/facebook, decline the newsletter. Get another browser extension to solve these problems, it will probably have pop-ups to tell you about "what's new". Open github to look at some code, get asked to star the project above the fold in the documentation. Forget what you even wanted to do with a laptop, close it, dive into much more productive work by figuring out the best way to feed your laptop into the kitchen garbage disposal in small pieces. Just another Tuesday
I think they are trying to say that other OSes have many more annoying UX patterns e.g. Windows update, macOS permission popups etc, auto-starting apps. Not to say these can't be turned off, but the default experience is not great.
All my windows and mac computers periodically spring some bullshit like ‘log in to onedrive and back up your photos!’ or ‘Try the new Safari!’ they’re never truly quiet, and still. They’re noisy.
They want me to do something that serves their purpose and not mine.
Windows does this nonsense all the time. Recently I used my mothers windows notebook to show her some photos. Five Minutes in with Firefox in full-screen it pops up a Teams window for no reason. She didn't install Teams nor does she need it, but Microsoft in their infinite wisdom decided not only to install it but also that taking focus while another application is in full-screen mode is the perfect moment to prompt the user to login into an application they never used.
The irony is so palpable. Reminds me of that Season 1 Black Mirror episode starring Daniel Kaluuya where he goes on a rant holding a shard of glass to his neck and at the very end it's revealed that he sold out to the very system that he's ranting about.
I feel this so, so much. The internet was so much better before it got commercialized and polluted with non-stop politics, hype, influencer crap, etc. I just want to be left alone, I know what I want, I don't want you to try and force it on me, trick me into it, etc. I want to have a functioning email account my friends can use where the messages won't get drowned in a sea of spam. I want a phone that only rings when someone I know calls.
We've created such a shithole, a perfect mirror of society I guess.
Yes, we can. A couple of years ago I drove through Maine and Vermont, and it was absolutely beautiful. Not only because of the natural beauty of those places, but because of the lack of billboards anywhere. It was nice to just enjoy the scenery without being constantly bombarded by ads. The city of São Paulo also banned ads a while back and it made the city a nicer environment to live in and revealed the beauty of some of the architecture that was previously hidden by masses of billboards.
I'm not quite that old - but back that far, there was far less pavement. Far more dust and mud. And far more excrement from horses and other livestock.
However obnoxious it might look, today's streetscape pollution lacks the odor, flies, and infectious disease hazards of yesteryear.
Even as recently as a few decades ago. I grew up just as leaded gasoline was being phased out, catalytic converters were becoming normal, and fuel injection was taking over from carburetors. The air generally smells much better these days.
I swear to god, every single day I have at least one app with a pop up tooltip asking if I'd like a guided tour of all their new features and latest UI shuffle musical chairs. Bonus points if I'm presenting my screen at the time.
Honestly software is almost infuriating to me on a daily basis to me nowadays, I don't know if I'm just curmudgeonly or if software just sucks now but I want everything to just get out of my way when I'm trying to do something.
We were just lucky to be early adopters, it was inevitable that what we loved, and told others to have a look at too, was going to be loved to death by people looking to make a buck
Yes, I agree, in retrospect it was inevitable. I was lucky to be coming of age (and especially naive) at the right time, and so I didn't even see that inevitability. It just looked like an unqualified good to young me.
My car keeps telling me to bring it in for Inspection B. No matter how many times I cancel, next time it comes back. I guess eventually people do it just so the message goes away.
Remember when cars started beeping until you put on your seat belt?
> Remember when cars started beeping until you put on your seat belt?
Yes, that was ... this morning? I guess now that I think about it, maybe it does stop after a moment. Though if I start moving, it definitely starts beeping again.
No maintenance for 200K miles though, so I'm hoping to avoid any messages about bringing it in. I'll find the magic keys to turn that off if I must.
If you did your scheduled maintenance on your own by the book, you would have done the right button combo to actually clear the maintenance notification. Or if you took it to a competent shop they would have done it for you.
I'd highly recommend doing the scheduled maintenance on your car. Whether at a dealer, at your trusted shop, or on your own. For your own safety and those around you.
You're acting like this is related to necessary maintenance / safety, why give corporate the benefit of the doubt without knowing about the vehicle involved?
Even things like washing machines and coffee makers will soft-brick themselves these days asking you to "start self clean-cycle with Foo(tm) substance" and then won't perform their function without some kind of forced reset. That part of the airplane ride where the PA is blasting some kind of "join our miles club" literally at a captive audience with no choice but to listen? It's not safety related either. My headphones that I would like to use to drown out the PA advertisement literally stop working if they detect speech, and the only way to disable this "feature" is to download their app.
This is just growth-hacking "zero-cost advertisements to a targeted audience" stuff that's extremely disrespectful at best, and kinda looks like it's edging closer to threats and extortion.
> You're acting like this is related to necessary maintenance / safety,
It's the maintenance reminder notification on a couple ton metal machine with lots of critical moving parts meant to operate next to pedestrians, cyclists, and other vehicles in public spaces. The maintenance schedule usually is related to safety and good operating of the car over time. Things wear out and should be inspected, serviced, and replaced over time. Should I just be OK with people ignoring the maintenance schedule? Should I be OK with the airline ignoring routine maintenance as well? The transit operator ignoring the maintenance on their trains?
I don't think it's unreasonable to require people to keep to maintenance schedules if they want to operate such machines in public spaces. It's a mistake for these states to relax inspection requirements. I don't mind a notification bugging an owner refusing to do the maintenance on their car. It probably pushed a lot of people to do it who would have otherwise forgotten.
What? I'm not arguing that people have the right to ignore important safety-related notices, especially if it's related to public safety.
I'm arguing that we should have the right to reliably separated channels for safety/operational notifications vs commercial content / outright scams. We don't have that though, which effectively erodes the safety you are saying you want to protect. If you're serious about safety, you should agree that using airplane PAs for emergencies instead of ads is a good idea. You should also be onboard with the idea that "service required" should actually mean "service required", not just that it's time to pay what amounts to a subscription fee to the vendor. Once a signal has degraded into pure noise, people get used to ignoring it.
The situation is mostly the same with software updates.. no way for end-users to reliably separate updates that help them vs ones that are only going to hurt them. Serious about security? Don't get too comfortable blasting your users with immaterial "news and updates" trash, or of course they want to ignore you
Once again, the person I was replying to was talking about the maintenance notification on their car. Not some ad for satellite radio or some other thing, a maintenance notification. It's scheduled to go off at the scheduled maintenance interval. It's not an ad. Any knowledgeable individual can clear it if they did their maintenance by the book. It's a reminder to go look at the book and do the scheduled maintenance or pay someone else to do it for you, whether that be the dealer or any other knowledgeable shop. Having it continue to go off indicates one didn't bother doing the scheduled maintenance on it. They're continuing to operate their car probably in public spaces while ignoring the maintenance.
Don't forget when you choose to opt-out but then start getting random spam from other businesses because they sold your email address. Also fun is when they send email anyways.
McDonald’s app is the sleaziest and clumsiest example of spammy user hostile anti patterns . It takes at least 12 screens to order. The app actually locks you out when a coupon is used , and warns you.
They took the cheerful and effortless order experience and turned it into filing taxes .
From where I'm from, there's a saying (badly paraphrased): "only the shopkeeper who talks well can get his stuff sold". Most of which the OP talks about is marketing, and marketing is a given, else the business will have a hard time existing.
If businesses need to make an effort towards marketing, it follows that counterparties will need to make an effort to block out that marketing if they do not want it. And the more aggressive marketing I get, the more aggressive I become about blocking it:
- giving more or all my business to companies who do leave me alone
- throwaway / hide-my emails
- unsubscribing, or even better, marking as spam
- not downloading unnecessary apps, and turning notifications off for most of them
- complaints to telecom operator for spam calls and messages (government has actually started taking strict action against these recently)
- complaints for bad behavior, in very public platforms
- actively making sure to delete accounts when no longer needed
Companies spend real money to reach me. So I return the favor and spend some time to ensure that I throw them off my lawn.
Since moving the GrapheneOS and basically re-setting up the phone from scratch, I've been choosing No to the inevitable "allow Notifications" permission request upon successful install (or first run).
There are just so many fewer distraction events coming from the damn device. It's almost peaceful. I can forget that it's there and get on with the things I want to, or should be, doing. I've also had mini-rants before about the unimportance of email communication; having notifications about the receipt of an email is as useful as a reminder to breathe (with some edge cases that if you set things up correctly, can be managed). Email, SMS, chat apps aren't real-time communications. If it's important I'll get a phone call - and only my chosen contacts cause the device to make a sound.
(This isn't about GrapheneOS, it's about choosing sanity at the time the initial choice is requested after having the experience to know what I want and what I don't. But GrapheneOS is great, for separate reasons).
A certain sense of "being invaded" in modern digital life—we are constantly surrounded by advertisements, promotions, notifications, and requests for data collection, with our personal space being continuously eroded. People long for peace, freedom, and the right to decide for themselves what information enters their lives.
I want to go back to buying devices where I don't have to maintain some kind of stupid relationship with the manufacturer for the product's lifetime, like requiring an account or an app with constant updates. Manufacturers, leave me alone! No, I don't want to have to create and maintain a fucking Sonos account, I just want a speaker that plays music.
Thank you for reading! If you would like to comment on this post you can start a conversation on the Fediverse. Message me on Mastodon at @cinimodev@masto.ctms.me. Or, you may email me at blog.discourse904@8alias.com. This is an intentionally masked email address that will be forwarded to the correct inbox.
Companies do have an ego-centric view of relationships. Of course our customers want to know what's happening. Of course they want to sign into our website and see their account.
And all of the measures that the article is complaining about do help with usability metrics - especially when measured in a fake corporate study.
It's much harder to consider the role we want technology to play holistically as a part of an entire life.
Frankly, I feel just the opposite in terms of what 90% of the government does on a day to day basis.
I do want the government to continue maintaining my road and the network it connects to.
I do want the government to respond quickly when a water main breaks on Sunday morning.
I do want the government to maintain their fleet of emergency service vehicles.
I've lived in countries where these things don't happen, and no one there was happy about being left alone. I normally only see this sentiment from people who have never lived in places with truly dysfunctional government.
If you want to truly be left alone by the government there are places you can go to be where the government will not concern itself with you in any practical way (in the US if that's where you are, or internationally if that's more your flavor). What you will discover is that it turns out that it is very difficult to live in a place where you have to manage all of your own infrastructure and services.
amazing there are still people like (I mean this sincerely!) who think this way. fellow citizens trying to do their best is about as far removed of realities of my government (usa) that it is almost surreal reading your words
There are many levels of government that provide many levels of service.
When I encounter this sentiment it is almost always from someone that has never lived in a country with a dysfunctional government.
Despite all of the well publicized and fair criticisms of governance in the US, you still live in a place where you can - for one of many examples - count on the water being safe to drink in 99% of circumstances (I grew up in Lima, where not only was the water unsafe to drink, it frequently just wasn't on. Every house had a backup water tank. That's the level of service in a good neighborhood in the Capitol).
Go spend some time outside the US in a non tourist area, in a developing country. The level of functionality when you come back to the US will be a palpable relief.
There were a lot of people trying to do the best they can and doing great things until Trump started fucking that up by firing them. Now there are 10s of thousands of people getting paid not to do what used to be their jobs. and many more not getting paid at all. Trump's attacks on competency are going to be felt for the rest of our lives.
I know. Someone people are so distrustful of the government that when they take it over they MAKE it untrustworthy to retrospectively prove that they were "right."
Everything this guy complains about is to some degree how the entity they are interacting with pays their bills. If he hates it so much, maybe he should leave.
Given that I retain all these memories, I think I'd probably just walk away from marriage quietly. Kinda feel not my type of life style and needs too much twist to adjust into.
I get your point but my Apple devices (Macs, iPhone, even my Vision Pro thing) aren't exactly "calm" either. The app stores are constantly trying to rope me into gacha games or promote some subscription wellness platform. Apple News subscription is floating click-bait Hollywood articles no matter how much I tap the thumbs down. Maps clutters my commute with suggested places and guides. Don't get me started on Podcasts and Music showing me topics and genres it's bizarrely certain I want to listen to.
You have misunderstood the "this" aspect in a zeal to advertise a brand. It's not about notifications, it's the letting you do things on your terms and getting out of your way. Which apple certainly doesn't do, you do it on their terms.
Modern OS X is crap in that matter.
Installing open source software not recognized by Apple you must go into the security settings, toggle authorizations etc.
When you first boot your mac your dock is cluttered by Apple Apps I never use.
Got regular prompts to use Apple Intelligence.
Everytime I do a major update I get notifications for the new features, and if I don't do their onboarding they keep coming back.
Popups "do you want to update now or this night"
It's crazy because 10 years ago it was windows and android doing thoses things, now even iOS is a mess of user experience. Now it's cluttered by features added years over years that haven't been thought as whole, neither ergonomic or intuitive whereas the Google pixel experience is pretty minimalist in comparison (and from the maker of google ads and YouTube I still have a hard time believing it).
Windows 11 I opted out of their cortana/copilot/edge at launch they never bothered since. I never get any prompts to try new features. Even the updates are well managed, you don't get any notification it's a choice on the power down menu.
Though Windows 11 on a cheap computer can be loaded with tons of crap theses days.
I waste so much time deleting spam mail (which I have to scan through to make sure nothing actually important got caught in the filter), deleting ultra-personalized spam marketing that isn’t caught by a filer and which I have to scan to determine that it’s not from a valid business contact, answering/not answering robo calls (again requires determining whether to answer or not), clicking away subscriber popups, turning off all notifications for some service (all on be default of course, and these are paid services), sorting through and throwing away 90% of the postal mail to my house. It’s exhausting and I hate it all.
My boomeritis flares up when I’m asked to “confirm” my appointment. It was confirmed when we made it. Are you asking me to “re-confirm” the appointment ? Now I’m not sure if we had one to begin with.
No I don’t want to confirm it. I want to show up and have you ready , like you’re supposed to
They're just calling to see if you're still coming in, or if you've canceled and didn't notify them. It happens all the time, or they wouldn't waste their time calling.
I had to show up for something 10 minutes early or else the appointment would be cancelled (at least according to the form). Kind of defeats the purpose of setting the time I chose.
I legitimately wish there was an option for: "I show up for my appointments 100% of the time and I'll agree in advance to pay a giant fee if I ever don't show up, if you promise not to bother me with appointment confirmations every time".
My friend who is single says that if people don't reconfirm the date the day of then it's presumed to be cancelled. She had a guy just not show up because she didn't confirm the day of the date or the day before. She was like... we just set the date on Wednesday!
I think because flaking/bailing has become so common people this is expected now. Maybe with appointments this carries over, although I'm sure with high cancellation fees and strict policies they can mitigate a bit.
I know you have boomeritis, and I’m sympathetic. But! In the US, no-show rates for medical appointments can exceed 20%. In practices that have a waitlist, which is also common, that’s a lot of unnecessary waiting for folks further down the waiting list, and a lot of money off the table for the practice for that day. Appointment confirmation messages, while annoying, are practically a necessity.
No one reading the piece in the first place wants to be left alone. If you wanted that, you wouldn't say to yourself "I wonder what this guy has to say" and then click his thing.
I read and leave comments on Hacker News for two reasons: I want to know I'm not alone, I want to be helpful.
This misses the point completely? Wanting to know that you're not alone and wanting to be left alone are completely different, despite the word choice. Surely you realize this. Saying that "I prefer to avoid unsolicited harassment from corporate interests" is hardly the same as saying "I'm an unapologetic misanthrope".
Heard, felt, strong agree. It's like trying to explain how irrationally upset I am that Liberty Mutual is sending physical mail to my parents house. I do not reside there. I do not reside in the US. I am neither a candidate nor even able to take advantage of any of their products.
But they bought my info, and so now USPS is delivering this trash into "my" mailbox (my mom texts, opens it, scans it, etc). I will NEVER buy anything from a flyer.
So I'm going to idle, every working hour next week, on the phone with Liberty Mutual sales staff. If they can harass me and waste my time, why can't I do it right back?
It's like last year when 3 different airlines opted me into text alerts. I was already getting them in-app and in-email.
Honestly I think people are so absent minded, distracted, ADHD-Y that they don't even realize how intrusive and annoying this deluge of consumerist capitalist sludge is to your mental state. Of course people also think I'm crazy when I tell them my phone stays in DND mode.
You seem to be a minority. Consider for a moment that the default behavior of the gmail app is to make a notification for each and every incoming new email.
Look at a normal person’s email inbox sometime.
Most people use default settings and are barely even aware that it’s configurable. They just put the info in the boxes until it stopped giving red exclamation marks and smashed the big button at the bottom without reading the field labels, the checkbox labels, or even the big button label.
Users don’t read, and most people aren’t as busy as us. They spend 3 hours a day watching television, a few more playing video games, have never heard the term “inbox zero”, and don’t know any of the steps to make that red bubble that says “65,535” on the gmail
icon go away.
I think you just proved the point. These people want to be left alone more than you. You seem find dealing with notification. Other people just ignore it, because for whatever reason they leave the default settings. But they really don't care about the wall of notifications sent at them. They just want to be left alone.
This gives a little "old man yells at cloud" vibes. Like, I get that some people are more misanthropic than others, but I personally have forgotten about appointments so text reminders were nice, I'm in plenty of Discord servers, getting help can be nice sometimes, etc.
Even if you're not religious or spiritual (which I would bet the author isn't), at the very least the natural process of evolution seems to value the idea of community and togetherness, so shunning it seems a bit shortsighted.
I don't think this rant is about misanthropy. It's about consent and about the exhaustion of having to defend your own attention everywhere you go and no matter what you do. Companies need to stop trying to get us to engage with them.
It absolutely is about misanthropy. You can't convince me that these have anything to do with your attention, it's mostly just being a dick to people that work in the service industry:
> Do you need help with self-checkout? No, I want to be left alone.
> Do you want to leave a tip? No, I want to be left alone.
> Do you want to round-up? No, I want to be left alone.
> Do you want to leave a review? No, I want to be left alone.
It's extremely obvious the guy has never worked as a barista, bartender, waiter, or salesperson, because I've dealt with people like this in real life and it's as exhausting as his post.
OK so you're ignoring the rest of the page and zeroing in on one or two lines, trying to make this specifically about tipping and service workers. This is not a personal rant against baristas and bartenders. It's a general plea to companies to stop trying to grab our attention and get us to do things.
What does "turn on notifications" have to do with service workers? What does "give us your phone number to get a coupon" have to do with service workers? What does "subscribe to our newsletter" have to do with service workers? What does "sign up for our credit card" have to do with service workers? It just sounds like you have an axe to grind and picked this article to do it.
An axe to grind? I'm just commenting on the article, my guy. It seemed a bit misanthropic and gave my reasoning. Literally all of those things are occasionally useful to people and are commonly known as "customer service."
Have you seriously never used a coupon you got via text? Have you never signed up for a credit card deal? I mean, some stuff I get (time share deals or annoying notifications or whatever), but agreeing to a terms of service has got you all up in arms? Really?
I bought a 5 year old Lenovo x13 and installed Debian on it, haven’t used linux in years but wanted to play around.
Installed, logged in for the first time and got the ‘welcome to KDE’ screen, dismissed it and then… nothing.
Every time I log in… nothing.
It just sits there waiting for me to do something. It doesn’t tell me to do anything. I’ve been mostly using it to play Civ2.
The idea of a technology device just sitting there waiting for your command, without bombarding you with notifications and dinging and buzzing, and without trying to beg and convince you to do something, is so anachronistic! I'm thinking back to my Commodore 64 or my DOS PC where you just turn it on, and it just prompts you, the user who is in charge to decide what to do this time.
When I first started using computers, they were a tool like a hammer. You buy the hammer, and it sits in your toolbox until you need to use it, then you use it and put it away. You are always in total control of the hammer and it does not try to influence you in any way.
Modern software tries to invert this control loop and make you the tool. Pop up a message to remind you to use their software. Automatically pick the next item in your social feed to convince your hind brain to spend more time in their app. Convince you to turn on location services to see the weather in your current location, and then use it to track all of your movements. AI is bound to do even more of this, where it tells you in various ways how to live your life.
I don’t quite know the solution, because software that influences the user has better survival characteristics than tool software, but it feels like things are starting to come to a head where people are feeling overwhelmed by their phones’ constant demands.
But how are they going to make money?
Through selling durable goods that don't have planned obsolescence
... until everyone has one.
Don't you see that the "make money" is the actual problem?
“Make money” isn’t the problem. The problem is the expectation for infinite growth.
Maytag service repair, Toyota service repair, etc.
While the margins and revenue are lower on durable + repair vs. planned obsolescence, the owner can sleep better at night knowing they've morally served their fellow human and not unduly destroyed the economy and the environment.
Money is a store of value. Even under communism, in POW camps, and in primate groups, trade occurs behind the scenes with unofficial currency. It's simply too strong of an idea and too engrained to wave our hands that money shouldn't exist. Whether we do it by cumbersome IOU notes or have a generalized and widely accepted interface doesn't make a difference.
But if you want to argue that regressive taxation is bad, I'm on board.
And what is your solution? Abolish the medium which humanity uses to freely exchange goods and services?
He used 'money' for 'profits' apparently. Profitmaking is the problem. Money is just a vehicle. And you can abolish profit-making through an open-source world: Projects can get started to create infinitely repairable, durable, and modular products based on standards instead of profit-making through planned obsolescence or farcical 'new features'. These products can get used and maintained by their users for decades.
But again, we are required to make money/profits/bazingas/whatchamacallit to survive. Our production tools are computers and computing. How do you survive? Just have rich parents? There needs to be an evil demonic profit maker somewhere.
Survive by what you earn month-to-month and then by pension, like 90+% of the planet.
lol no I will mess with time!
Open-source / noncommercial isn't exactly a cure for the steady drip of "like and subscribe" type of harassment these days. Probably just because commercial interests have pushed user-harassment so hard for so long that the window has shifted and now users expect harassment, and because at least some makers actually feel their work is less professional if they don't engage in harassment.
Open your laptop, dismiss ubuntu wanting to update stuff; open firefox and have your adblock extension popup to tell you how many ads it blocked and to give you a helpful advertisement for updating your adblock; open a web page, any webpage, dismiss at least 3 popups for cookies, decline to signin in google/facebook, decline the newsletter. Get another browser extension to solve these problems, it will probably have pop-ups to tell you about "what's new". Open github to look at some code, get asked to star the project above the fold in the documentation. Forget what you even wanted to do with a laptop, close it, dive into much more productive work by figuring out the best way to feed your laptop into the kitchen garbage disposal in small pieces. Just another Tuesday
All of my Windows and Mac computers also do nothing when I log in so I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here.
I think they are trying to say that other OSes have many more annoying UX patterns e.g. Windows update, macOS permission popups etc, auto-starting apps. Not to say these can't be turned off, but the default experience is not great.
All my windows and mac computers periodically spring some bullshit like ‘log in to onedrive and back up your photos!’ or ‘Try the new Safari!’ they’re never truly quiet, and still. They’re noisy.
They want me to do something that serves their purpose and not mine.
Windows does this nonsense all the time. Recently I used my mothers windows notebook to show her some photos. Five Minutes in with Firefox in full-screen it pops up a Teams window for no reason. She didn't install Teams nor does she need it, but Microsoft in their infinite wisdom decided not only to install it but also that taking focus while another application is in full-screen mode is the perfect moment to prompt the user to login into an application they never used.
> Thank you for reading! If you would like to comment on this post you can start a conversation on the Fediverse.
No, I want to be left alone.
On the Fediverse, you are alone.
The irony is so palpable. Reminds me of that Season 1 Black Mirror episode starring Daniel Kaluuya where he goes on a rant holding a shard of glass to his neck and at the very end it's revealed that he sold out to the very system that he's ranting about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Million_Merits
I want to pet your cat, though.
I’d prefer you to not touching my cat, sorry!
My thoughts exactly
The pervasiveness of “I only want to interact with others on my terms” is one of the most alienating parts of humanity
I think it’s a common feeling which tells you something about the absurdity of the human condition
There's no better communication channel than one based on open standards and free software. I don't understand your problem.
The world used to provide social interaction without a marketing predicate. The statement is only alienating outside that context. Terrifying.
I feel this so, so much. The internet was so much better before it got commercialized and polluted with non-stop politics, hype, influencer crap, etc. I just want to be left alone, I know what I want, I don't want you to try and force it on me, trick me into it, etc. I want to have a functioning email account my friends can use where the messages won't get drowned in a sea of spam. I want a phone that only rings when someone I know calls.
We've created such a shithole, a perfect mirror of society I guess.
> The internet was so much better before it got commercialized
I wonder if we can say the same about our streets (billboards, neon signs, etc etc) compared to, say, streets 200 years ago?
Alaska, Hawaii, Maine, and Vermont seem to think so. They outlawed billboards to maintain the natural beauty of their state.
https://www.billboardsin.com/states-where-billboards-are-ban...
Yes, we can. A couple of years ago I drove through Maine and Vermont, and it was absolutely beautiful. Not only because of the natural beauty of those places, but because of the lack of billboards anywhere. It was nice to just enjoy the scenery without being constantly bombarded by ads. The city of São Paulo also banned ads a while back and it made the city a nicer environment to live in and revealed the beauty of some of the architecture that was previously hidden by masses of billboards.
I know a few towns in various US places that do things like:
1. Prohibiting large signs that can be seen from far away
2. No stores over 2 stories tall
3. No big box / chains stores
And wow, those places are magical!
2 is probably too low for a city. 6 to 12 outside a business center hit just right.
These places won't turn into cities - partially because they outlaw large chains / businesses :)
It's all locally owned business.
Hell yes we can! I wish to ban all advertisements from them, for starters.
I'm not quite that old - but back that far, there was far less pavement. Far more dust and mud. And far more excrement from horses and other livestock.
However obnoxious it might look, today's streetscape pollution lacks the odor, flies, and infectious disease hazards of yesteryear.
Even as recently as a few decades ago. I grew up just as leaded gasoline was being phased out, catalytic converters were becoming normal, and fuel injection was taking over from carburetors. The air generally smells much better these days.
You do not have to bring back horseshit on the streets if you want less visual pollution on the streets ;)
I swear to god, every single day I have at least one app with a pop up tooltip asking if I'd like a guided tour of all their new features and latest UI shuffle musical chairs. Bonus points if I'm presenting my screen at the time.
Honestly software is almost infuriating to me on a daily basis to me nowadays, I don't know if I'm just curmudgeonly or if software just sucks now but I want everything to just get out of my way when I'm trying to do something.
I guess you could say I want to be left alone...
The deeper problem is being able to nag someone at any time
We were just lucky to be early adopters, it was inevitable that what we loved, and told others to have a look at too, was going to be loved to death by people looking to make a buck
Yes, I agree, in retrospect it was inevitable. I was lucky to be coming of age (and especially naive) at the right time, and so I didn't even see that inevitability. It just looked like an unqualified good to young me.
Not an option with modern UX. It's yes or maybe later.
They don't understand consent. [0]
0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43774770
If Silicon Valley was a living human being, it would be a guy in the nightclub going up to everyone and saying "Want to dance? [YES | ASK ME AGAIN]".
Because companies no longer want your consent. They just want to know if it's a convenient time to fuck you.
My car keeps telling me to bring it in for Inspection B. No matter how many times I cancel, next time it comes back. I guess eventually people do it just so the message goes away.
Remember when cars started beeping until you put on your seat belt?
> Remember when cars started beeping until you put on your seat belt?
Yes, that was ... this morning? I guess now that I think about it, maybe it does stop after a moment. Though if I start moving, it definitely starts beeping again.
No maintenance for 200K miles though, so I'm hoping to avoid any messages about bringing it in. I'll find the magic keys to turn that off if I must.
> the message goes away
that's cuz the mechanic knows what buttons to push to reset it. the instructions are probably online, and easy.
If you did your scheduled maintenance on your own by the book, you would have done the right button combo to actually clear the maintenance notification. Or if you took it to a competent shop they would have done it for you.
I'd highly recommend doing the scheduled maintenance on your car. Whether at a dealer, at your trusted shop, or on your own. For your own safety and those around you.
You're acting like this is related to necessary maintenance / safety, why give corporate the benefit of the doubt without knowing about the vehicle involved?
Even things like washing machines and coffee makers will soft-brick themselves these days asking you to "start self clean-cycle with Foo(tm) substance" and then won't perform their function without some kind of forced reset. That part of the airplane ride where the PA is blasting some kind of "join our miles club" literally at a captive audience with no choice but to listen? It's not safety related either. My headphones that I would like to use to drown out the PA advertisement literally stop working if they detect speech, and the only way to disable this "feature" is to download their app.
This is just growth-hacking "zero-cost advertisements to a targeted audience" stuff that's extremely disrespectful at best, and kinda looks like it's edging closer to threats and extortion.
> You're acting like this is related to necessary maintenance / safety,
It's the maintenance reminder notification on a couple ton metal machine with lots of critical moving parts meant to operate next to pedestrians, cyclists, and other vehicles in public spaces. The maintenance schedule usually is related to safety and good operating of the car over time. Things wear out and should be inspected, serviced, and replaced over time. Should I just be OK with people ignoring the maintenance schedule? Should I be OK with the airline ignoring routine maintenance as well? The transit operator ignoring the maintenance on their trains?
I don't think it's unreasonable to require people to keep to maintenance schedules if they want to operate such machines in public spaces. It's a mistake for these states to relax inspection requirements. I don't mind a notification bugging an owner refusing to do the maintenance on their car. It probably pushed a lot of people to do it who would have otherwise forgotten.
What? I'm not arguing that people have the right to ignore important safety-related notices, especially if it's related to public safety.
I'm arguing that we should have the right to reliably separated channels for safety/operational notifications vs commercial content / outright scams. We don't have that though, which effectively erodes the safety you are saying you want to protect. If you're serious about safety, you should agree that using airplane PAs for emergencies instead of ads is a good idea. You should also be onboard with the idea that "service required" should actually mean "service required", not just that it's time to pay what amounts to a subscription fee to the vendor. Once a signal has degraded into pure noise, people get used to ignoring it.
The situation is mostly the same with software updates.. no way for end-users to reliably separate updates that help them vs ones that are only going to hurt them. Serious about security? Don't get too comfortable blasting your users with immaterial "news and updates" trash, or of course they want to ignore you
Once again, the person I was replying to was talking about the maintenance notification on their car. Not some ad for satellite radio or some other thing, a maintenance notification. It's scheduled to go off at the scheduled maintenance interval. It's not an ad. Any knowledgeable individual can clear it if they did their maintenance by the book. It's a reminder to go look at the book and do the scheduled maintenance or pay someone else to do it for you, whether that be the dealer or any other knowledgeable shop. Having it continue to go off indicates one didn't bother doing the scheduled maintenance on it. They're continuing to operate their car probably in public spaces while ignoring the maintenance.
Don't forget when you choose to opt-out but then start getting random spam from other businesses because they sold your email address. Also fun is when they send email anyways.
McDonald’s app is the sleaziest and clumsiest example of spammy user hostile anti patterns . It takes at least 12 screens to order. The app actually locks you out when a coupon is used , and warns you.
They took the cheerful and effortless order experience and turned it into filing taxes .
From where I'm from, there's a saying (badly paraphrased): "only the shopkeeper who talks well can get his stuff sold". Most of which the OP talks about is marketing, and marketing is a given, else the business will have a hard time existing.
If businesses need to make an effort towards marketing, it follows that counterparties will need to make an effort to block out that marketing if they do not want it. And the more aggressive marketing I get, the more aggressive I become about blocking it:
- giving more or all my business to companies who do leave me alone
- throwaway / hide-my emails
- unsubscribing, or even better, marking as spam
- not downloading unnecessary apps, and turning notifications off for most of them
- complaints to telecom operator for spam calls and messages (government has actually started taking strict action against these recently)
- complaints for bad behavior, in very public platforms
- actively making sure to delete accounts when no longer needed
Companies spend real money to reach me. So I return the favor and spend some time to ensure that I throw them off my lawn.
Since moving the GrapheneOS and basically re-setting up the phone from scratch, I've been choosing No to the inevitable "allow Notifications" permission request upon successful install (or first run).
There are just so many fewer distraction events coming from the damn device. It's almost peaceful. I can forget that it's there and get on with the things I want to, or should be, doing. I've also had mini-rants before about the unimportance of email communication; having notifications about the receipt of an email is as useful as a reminder to breathe (with some edge cases that if you set things up correctly, can be managed). Email, SMS, chat apps aren't real-time communications. If it's important I'll get a phone call - and only my chosen contacts cause the device to make a sound.
(This isn't about GrapheneOS, it's about choosing sanity at the time the initial choice is requested after having the experience to know what I want and what I don't. But GrapheneOS is great, for separate reasons).
A certain sense of "being invaded" in modern digital life—we are constantly surrounded by advertisements, promotions, notifications, and requests for data collection, with our personal space being continuously eroded. People long for peace, freedom, and the right to decide for themselves what information enters their lives.
I want to go back to buying devices where I don't have to maintain some kind of stupid relationship with the manufacturer for the product's lifetime, like requiring an account or an app with constant updates. Manufacturers, leave me alone! No, I don't want to have to create and maintain a fucking Sonos account, I just want a speaker that plays music.
The most valuable thing you have is your attention, everyone out there is going to fight tooth and nail for it, especially if they can make a dollar.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ii4YJK_-RTk
Bartleby was right.
One of these things is not like the others!
> Do you want to go ad free? No, I want to be left alone.
The ads, by definition, won't leave you alone.
I think the implication here may be to sell you a premium version or a subscription of an app without ads.
That’s exactly the intent, but it’s also a portmanteau.
This would be a good checklist self test. Because I bet you most of us say yes to a bunch of these but not always the same ones.
Companies do have an ego-centric view of relationships. Of course our customers want to know what's happening. Of course they want to sign into our website and see their account.
And all of the measures that the article is complaining about do help with usability metrics - especially when measured in a fake corporate study.
It's much harder to consider the role we want technology to play holistically as a part of an entire life.
How people feel about the government.
"The government" is not trying to get me to do any of those things listed on the site. Corporations are doing this.
Frankly, I feel just the opposite in terms of what 90% of the government does on a day to day basis.
I do want the government to continue maintaining my road and the network it connects to.
I do want the government to respond quickly when a water main breaks on Sunday morning.
I do want the government to maintain their fleet of emergency service vehicles.
I've lived in countries where these things don't happen, and no one there was happy about being left alone. I normally only see this sentiment from people who have never lived in places with truly dysfunctional government.
If you want to truly be left alone by the government there are places you can go to be where the government will not concern itself with you in any practical way (in the US if that's where you are, or internationally if that's more your flavor). What you will discover is that it turns out that it is very difficult to live in a place where you have to manage all of your own infrastructure and services.
Do you want roads and transit infrastructure to be kept in good condition? No, I want to be left alone.
Do you want grants for research or the arts? No, I want to be left alone.
Do you want a landlord-tenant board who will protect your apartment from being turned into a pig sty? No, I want to be left alone.
Do you want universal health insurance that scales with your income bracket? No, I want to be left alone.
Do you want people to come put out your house if it catches fire? No, I want to be left alone?
Libertarianism in a nutshell.
Not how I feel. I like government. I want to be left alone WITH my government-- who I think of as my fellow citizens trying to do their best.
amazing there are still people like (I mean this sincerely!) who think this way. fellow citizens trying to do their best is about as far removed of realities of my government (usa) that it is almost surreal reading your words
There are many levels of government that provide many levels of service.
When I encounter this sentiment it is almost always from someone that has never lived in a country with a dysfunctional government.
Despite all of the well publicized and fair criticisms of governance in the US, you still live in a place where you can - for one of many examples - count on the water being safe to drink in 99% of circumstances (I grew up in Lima, where not only was the water unsafe to drink, it frequently just wasn't on. Every house had a backup water tank. That's the level of service in a good neighborhood in the Capitol).
Go spend some time outside the US in a non tourist area, in a developing country. The level of functionality when you come back to the US will be a palpable relief.
There are many, many US government employees this accurately describes. Well, to be clear, many of them just got fired.
There were a lot of people trying to do the best they can and doing great things until Trump started fucking that up by firing them. Now there are 10s of thousands of people getting paid not to do what used to be their jobs. and many more not getting paid at all. Trump's attacks on competency are going to be felt for the rest of our lives.
I know. Someone people are so distrustful of the government that when they take it over they MAKE it untrustworthy to retrospectively prove that they were "right."
I keep running into people working for the government who are not monsters. Who are YOU running into?
(I'm not talking about ICE or Republicans.)
[dead]
And then the natural disaster hits and we're all: "What about those fat piles of cash I paid in taxes? How about some relief?"
And the government is all: "You wanted to be left alone."
This reads like something Bo Burnham would write/perform.
Sorry you can't freeload in peace?
Everything this guy complains about is to some degree how the entity they are interacting with pays their bills. If he hates it so much, maybe he should leave.
TBH I have a full family and I want to be left alone for at least half of the time.
Damn I was so stupid and weak to NOT stay alone.
If you'd go back in time would you just choose to stay single?
Given that I retain all these memories, I think I'd probably just walk away from marriage quietly. Kinda feel not my type of life style and needs too much twist to adjust into.
> Do you want to sign up for our credit card? No, I want to be left alone.
Wrong answer!
"I already have one!"
Instant pitch snuffer-outer.
Apple gets this better than any other company IMO.
You literally pay a premium to be bothered less than the alternatives.
I get your point but my Apple devices (Macs, iPhone, even my Vision Pro thing) aren't exactly "calm" either. The app stores are constantly trying to rope me into gacha games or promote some subscription wellness platform. Apple News subscription is floating click-bait Hollywood articles no matter how much I tap the thumbs down. Maps clutters my commute with suggested places and guides. Don't get me started on Podcasts and Music showing me topics and genres it's bizarrely certain I want to listen to.
I don't really trust apple all that much. Especially when there is better OS and devices. Though I know a few devs who prefer it.
You have misunderstood the "this" aspect in a zeal to advertise a brand. It's not about notifications, it's the letting you do things on your terms and getting out of your way. Which apple certainly doesn't do, you do it on their terms.
In what way does Apple not do that? Pretty sure the article is about getting bombarded by notifications and updates, which Apple doesn’t really do.
Modern OS X is crap in that matter. Installing open source software not recognized by Apple you must go into the security settings, toggle authorizations etc.
When you first boot your mac your dock is cluttered by Apple Apps I never use.
Got regular prompts to use Apple Intelligence.
Everytime I do a major update I get notifications for the new features, and if I don't do their onboarding they keep coming back.
Popups "do you want to update now or this night"
It's crazy because 10 years ago it was windows and android doing thoses things, now even iOS is a mess of user experience. Now it's cluttered by features added years over years that haven't been thought as whole, neither ergonomic or intuitive whereas the Google pixel experience is pretty minimalist in comparison (and from the maker of google ads and YouTube I still have a hard time believing it).
Windows 11 I opted out of their cortana/copilot/edge at launch they never bothered since. I never get any prompts to try new features. Even the updates are well managed, you don't get any notification it's a choice on the power down menu.
Though Windows 11 on a cheap computer can be loaded with tons of crap theses days.
Can you give an example of the alternatives?
Windows on the desktop. Android phone.
I actually love text reminders of doctor appointments so I don’t forget them. The rest I can pretty much agree with.
I’m perfectly capable of adding an appointment in my phone’s calendar and set up an alert to remind me, thank you very much.
(And actually when the doctor sends an email confirmation that the appointment was booked, the phone offers to put it in the calendar automagically)
Yeah I don’t have to do any of that if I get a text.
Ah the joys of getting through life with a simple dumb phone.
I waste so much time deleting spam mail (which I have to scan through to make sure nothing actually important got caught in the filter), deleting ultra-personalized spam marketing that isn’t caught by a filer and which I have to scan to determine that it’s not from a valid business contact, answering/not answering robo calls (again requires determining whether to answer or not), clicking away subscriber popups, turning off all notifications for some service (all on be default of course, and these are paid services), sorting through and throwing away 90% of the postal mail to my house. It’s exhausting and I hate it all.
My boomeritis flares up when I’m asked to “confirm” my appointment. It was confirmed when we made it. Are you asking me to “re-confirm” the appointment ? Now I’m not sure if we had one to begin with.
No I don’t want to confirm it. I want to show up and have you ready , like you’re supposed to
They're just calling to see if you're still coming in, or if you've canceled and didn't notify them. It happens all the time, or they wouldn't waste their time calling.
Suffocated by the bottom decile
And don't tell me I have an appointment for 2pm so I should show up at 1:45pm. That means the appointment is at 1:45pm. Just say so.
I had to show up for something 10 minutes early or else the appointment would be cancelled (at least according to the form). Kind of defeats the purpose of setting the time I chose.
You better get there early for them, but they are never on time for you. It’s arrogant as hell and I resent it
And they are always late , besides. Tons of staff playing on the computer doing nothing , yet somehow never on time
I legitimately wish there was an option for: "I show up for my appointments 100% of the time and I'll agree in advance to pay a giant fee if I ever don't show up, if you promise not to bother me with appointment confirmations every time".
There used to be
My friend who is single says that if people don't reconfirm the date the day of then it's presumed to be cancelled. She had a guy just not show up because she didn't confirm the day of the date or the day before. She was like... we just set the date on Wednesday!
I think because flaking/bailing has become so common people this is expected now. Maybe with appointments this carries over, although I'm sure with high cancellation fees and strict policies they can mitigate a bit.
I know you have boomeritis, and I’m sympathetic. But! In the US, no-show rates for medical appointments can exceed 20%. In practices that have a waitlist, which is also common, that’s a lot of unnecessary waiting for folks further down the waiting list, and a lot of money off the table for the practice for that day. Appointment confirmation messages, while annoying, are practically a necessity.
Suffocated by the bottom decile. Stop pandering to the LCD
boomeritis! I have never read this before and I love it.
I’m flattered. But be careful once it flares up there’s no remedy .
Mumble: "We have 3 pm on Tuesday available, would you like that to be booked for you"
Me: Yes please
Mumble: "I'm sorry, that time is not available, can we find you another time that would suit"
Me: Why you little....
This happened just yesterday for a critical (I mean life or death) appt
No one commenting here wants to be left alone.
No one reading the piece in the first place wants to be left alone. If you wanted that, you wouldn't say to yourself "I wonder what this guy has to say" and then click his thing.
I read and leave comments on Hacker News for two reasons: I want to know I'm not alone, I want to be helpful.
This misses the point completely? Wanting to know that you're not alone and wanting to be left alone are completely different, despite the word choice. Surely you realize this. Saying that "I prefer to avoid unsolicited harassment from corporate interests" is hardly the same as saying "I'm an unapologetic misanthrope".
I do see your point. It's just that when someone says "I want to be left alone" a hundred times, I start to think they want to be left alone.
"Leave me alone" is different from "I want to be left alone." The second implies you want to be left alone by everyone.
Heard, felt, strong agree. It's like trying to explain how irrationally upset I am that Liberty Mutual is sending physical mail to my parents house. I do not reside there. I do not reside in the US. I am neither a candidate nor even able to take advantage of any of their products.
But they bought my info, and so now USPS is delivering this trash into "my" mailbox (my mom texts, opens it, scans it, etc). I will NEVER buy anything from a flyer.
So I'm going to idle, every working hour next week, on the phone with Liberty Mutual sales staff. If they can harass me and waste my time, why can't I do it right back?
It's like last year when 3 different airlines opted me into text alerts. I was already getting them in-app and in-email.
Honestly I think people are so absent minded, distracted, ADHD-Y that they don't even realize how intrusive and annoying this deluge of consumerist capitalist sludge is to your mental state. Of course people also think I'm crazy when I tell them my phone stays in DND mode.
[dead]
> Do you want to pet my cat? Yes. Yes I do.
:)
You seem to be a minority. Consider for a moment that the default behavior of the gmail app is to make a notification for each and every incoming new email.
Look at a normal person’s email inbox sometime.
Most people use default settings and are barely even aware that it’s configurable. They just put the info in the boxes until it stopped giving red exclamation marks and smashed the big button at the bottom without reading the field labels, the checkbox labels, or even the big button label.
Users don’t read, and most people aren’t as busy as us. They spend 3 hours a day watching television, a few more playing video games, have never heard the term “inbox zero”, and don’t know any of the steps to make that red bubble that says “65,535” on the gmail icon go away.
I think you just proved the point. These people want to be left alone more than you. You seem find dealing with notification. Other people just ignore it, because for whatever reason they leave the default settings. But they really don't care about the wall of notifications sent at them. They just want to be left alone.
This gives a little "old man yells at cloud" vibes. Like, I get that some people are more misanthropic than others, but I personally have forgotten about appointments so text reminders were nice, I'm in plenty of Discord servers, getting help can be nice sometimes, etc.
Even if you're not religious or spiritual (which I would bet the author isn't), at the very least the natural process of evolution seems to value the idea of community and togetherness, so shunning it seems a bit shortsighted.
I don't think this rant is about misanthropy. It's about consent and about the exhaustion of having to defend your own attention everywhere you go and no matter what you do. Companies need to stop trying to get us to engage with them.
It absolutely is about misanthropy. You can't convince me that these have anything to do with your attention, it's mostly just being a dick to people that work in the service industry:
> Do you need help with self-checkout? No, I want to be left alone.
> Do you want to leave a tip? No, I want to be left alone.
> Do you want to round-up? No, I want to be left alone.
> Do you want to leave a review? No, I want to be left alone.
It's extremely obvious the guy has never worked as a barista, bartender, waiter, or salesperson, because I've dealt with people like this in real life and it's as exhausting as his post.
OK so you're ignoring the rest of the page and zeroing in on one or two lines, trying to make this specifically about tipping and service workers. This is not a personal rant against baristas and bartenders. It's a general plea to companies to stop trying to grab our attention and get us to do things.
What does "turn on notifications" have to do with service workers? What does "give us your phone number to get a coupon" have to do with service workers? What does "subscribe to our newsletter" have to do with service workers? What does "sign up for our credit card" have to do with service workers? It just sounds like you have an axe to grind and picked this article to do it.
> just sounds like you have an axe to grind
An axe to grind? I'm just commenting on the article, my guy. It seemed a bit misanthropic and gave my reasoning. Literally all of those things are occasionally useful to people and are commonly known as "customer service."
Have you seriously never used a coupon you got via text? Have you never signed up for a credit card deal? I mean, some stuff I get (time share deals or annoying notifications or whatever), but agreeing to a terms of service has got you all up in arms? Really?