> This tilt towards later-in-life divorce is happening for a mix of reasons, studies suggest. Lives are longer than they used to be, for a start, and older couples may be less willing to put up with unfulfilling marriages than before.
Makes sense too if you stay together for the kids, then the kids aren’t kids anymore
> I generally agree, but they're focused mostly on 65+ age group
Another aspect possibly driving this: In USA a lot of people get divorced immediately after a cancer (or similar) diagnosis. That way only one of you goes bankrupt and you get to keep half your lifetime savings.
The paper that you cited is the 2009 study: Glantz, M. J., Chamberlain, M. C., Liu, Q., Hsieh, C. C., Edwards, K. R., Van Horn, A., & Recht, L. (2009). Gender disparity in the rate of partner abandonment in patients with serious medical illness. Cancer, 115(22), 5237-5242. https://acsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10...
That paper has been debunked. Its conclusions were based on a coding error. When the coding error is corrected for the gender disparity disappears.
Please stop citing this paper without adding that it was debunked.
- First-time parenthood is frequently occurring later in life
- Couples are more often having (additional) children at later ages
- Children are sometimes not "launching" until later in their 20s.
So, ~35yo first-time parents and/or ~40yo youngest-child parents, plus ~25-30yo children moving out ... That can get you to 65-70 years pretty easily.
Alternately, it might be that the cohort now age 65+ was more likely to divorce than the previous generation at every age throughout their lives, and there were some kind of generational effects involved.
Anecdotally, this rings true for me. Father walked out on mother essentially, when I was in my early 40s. Rocked my world thoroughly, hadn't seen it coming. Several years of therapy to come to terms with it.
Also anecdotally, I experienced the opposite. After three decades of constant fighting, the divorce was almost cathartic. Their marriage was more traumatic for me than their divorce.
Interestingly, their relationship became much better after and they are ok as friends now.
Research suggests there is a big difference between how children experience divorce between high-functioning and low-functioning families - children from high-functioning families often experience parental divorce as traumatic, children from low-functioning families often experience it as a relief from ongoing traumatisation
Even within the same family, both divorce and dysfunction can be experienced very differently due to differences in each child’s individual psychology and also family dynamics (sometimes one child is made to bear the brunt of the dysfunction much more than the others-the “black sheep” versus the “golden child”)
I can second this - my parents were good friends after their divorce, as all of the issues of contention were related to sharing a house and relationship.
I would assume ones's parents divorce would be much easier to come to terms with for someone in their 40s compared to 20s, teens or kids (that doesn't mean it wouldn't suck).
my parents split and got divorced when i was in my 20s, and both of them had remarried within about 5 years. it didnt really bother me very much at all, i was already living very far away from home, and its good to see theyre both happier than they were before the divorce. the biggest change to me is i have to visit two houses when i go home for a holiday instead of just 1 house
Bailing out on the responsibilities of caregiving of the spouse, thus forcing the burden onto adult children whose careers are cut short or obliterated may be one common reason this occurs.
Unexpectedly becoming the sole caregiver of an aging parent seems different to me. I can imagine some resentment, especially if it’s unexpected _and_ one is already the caregiver for their own spouse, children, etc. It changes your life plans, adds additional daily stress in your life, and may also add financial stress.
Because you may have 2 different parents to care for instead of just 1. In general, this could also mean longer caregiving periods based on the ages of the divorce vs typical lifespan.
2 people to fund retirements for as separate people for many adult kids who have solid careers and irresponsible parents. Ignoring healthcare it’s about twice as expensive both in time and money.
HN folks I assume are expected to handle these sorts of obligations more than average due to tech career incomes.
Divorce doesn’t harm the family only when children are young. Marriage is a bond that forms a foundation for family networks. This nonsense about “unfulfilling marriage” is simply our hyperindividualism on shameless display. That’s not the job of your marriage, to offer you some kind of fantasy “fulfillment”. Your dissatisfaction is likely rooted in your self-centeredness. We know that selfish, self-centered, self-obsessed people are the most unhappy people. Well, here’s a thought: stop prioritizing your “happiness” and your “fulfillment” and be an adult. Recognize that your marriage is for the good of others. A large part of being an adult is to enable the common good of your family and your society. Your family depends on you. Your society depends on you. Divorce motivated by abuse is one thing, but “lack of fulfillment” is a sign of perpetual adolescence.
Want to be happy? Happiness is found in virtue. Learn to live for others and stop being a parasite who burdens his spouse with the impossible task of making you “happy”.
Different people can have different goals / purposes for the same institution.
Marriage is one example.
Another that comes to mind is going to college. Some see it as a chance to discover themselves, others see it as essentially a training program for specific careers.
From your profile, I'm guessing you approach this from a Judeo-Christian perspective? If you believe the institution of marriage is defined and ordained by God, then your normative view of it makes sense. Just be aware that not everyone in this discussion will share those assumptions.
My wife is from a time and place were divorce was almost unheard of. At first she was appalled at what she saw as bed-hopping here. But over time she came to realize that it really came down to stay in an unhappy situation or split and try to find someone you're happy with. Of the relationships of her cohort she is close enough to know the situation most are dead, no love, no sex. Nothing but saving face.
Marriage is about love and only love. What love means is personal and varies person to person of course. And it isn't a given two people remain in love for eternity - that's what makes marriages that stick for the right reasons so beautiful.
I’d be surprised if it made a dent… I’d probably first check the numbers on this… you are saying that because men can get their testosterone up even later in their lives, they either cheat, get sexually frustrated, or less likely to put up with their wives behavior? Interesting theory, but I would be surprised if the numbers supported this pet theory.
Men with higher testosterone has been linked to cheating in various studies--honestly I thought this was common knowledge. And treatments for "low t" (targeted at middle-aged and older males) have been more and more common over the past few decades. I guess it just seems fairly plausible.
Literally none of that supports your hypothesis, and you haven't established the first factor: are testosterone treatments statistically significant within the target demographic?
i have tried taking testosterone and it had several mind-blowing benefits and i can say with complete confidence that testosterone hrt is actually one of the most effective methods to save or hold together a heterosexual marriage. quite the opposite of what you think. such a shame that hrt is demonized by most people when its test rather than estrogen
I was on TRT for 10 years. Then I met an amazing woman, we wanted to start a family. Fertility clinic confirmed 0 sperm production. 6 months later she, she fell pregnant.
I stopped nebido cold turkey, went on HMG and HCG by subcutaneous injection 3 days a week. Had a few chills and sweats at first, but mood impact was not noticeable. No change to training routine (HiiT, boxing muay thai and calisthenics). A few months along, I switched to enclopmiphene citrate (25mg daily).
your body does stop making its own but there is no clear answer as to whether or not your body loses the ability to restart its own endogenous production. thats how new and also ignored/understudied testosterone hrt is… if you wait a fee years there might be new information or biomarkers that can help answer this question.
there are other things you can do to preserve your bodies natural T production. there are medications that induce it but its not been studied for long term use. there is also another hormone you can take called HCG that will cause your body to continue making test but its difficult to use.
Me, too, and I agree it has helped in my marriage. I don't think it'd be helpful in all marriages, though. Particularly if you are in a career that puts you in high-temptation situations.
the biggest benefit was to my sleep and this is true of pretty much everyone who takes it. i was able to have very deep, restful and unbroken sleep. the best sleep of my life. normally i can barely sleep and wake up in the night and do not feel rested. ive been like that since my 20s and nothing touches it besides testosterone. other benefits include much better mood, a tendency to be much more open and likable, tons of energy and motivation behind everything i do and of course being much stronger is also nice. cardiovascular performance, the ability to do cardio heavy tasks and not get winded, massively increased. i loved it. but it made me less calculated and thoughtful which is important for my job so i decided to stop. i will almost certainly start again in the future.
even after stopping i noticed that there seems to be a lot more pressure on my heels when im standing. i think it has a positive effect on my default sympathetic tone or something like that. drawbacks are sleep apnea, hair loss and testicle shrinkage
> This tilt towards later-in-life divorce is happening for a mix of reasons, studies suggest. Lives are longer than they used to be, for a start, and older couples may be less willing to put up with unfulfilling marriages than before.
Makes sense too if you stay together for the kids, then the kids aren’t kids anymore
I generally agree, but they're focused mostly on 65+ age group. That would make more sense around 45-55 if people are having kids in their 30s.
> I generally agree, but they're focused mostly on 65+ age group
Another aspect possibly driving this: In USA a lot of people get divorced immediately after a cancer (or similar) diagnosis. That way only one of you goes bankrupt and you get to keep half your lifetime savings.
That is not happening in any meaningful volume.
On the contrary, you may get paid out a massive life insurance claim.
You don’t have to be married to be the beneficiary of life insurance policy. I believe you only need a financial interest.
And a divorce will not cancel an existing policy even if it puts you in a position you couldn't get a new one.
[flagged]
Not sure if it was that paper, but there was a similar paper showing this phenomenon which later turned out to contain an error:
https://retractionwatch.com/2015/07/21/to-our-horror-widely-...
People who left the study were actually miscoded as getting divorced.
After the adjustment the correlation was less but was still there.
No, they're not referencing the same paper.
The paper that you cited is the 2009 study: Glantz, M. J., Chamberlain, M. C., Liu, Q., Hsieh, C. C., Edwards, K. R., Van Horn, A., & Recht, L. (2009). Gender disparity in the rate of partner abandonment in patients with serious medical illness. Cancer, 115(22), 5237-5242. https://acsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10...
That paper has been debunked. Its conclusions were based on a coding error. When the coding error is corrected for the gender disparity disappears.
Please stop citing this paper without adding that it was debunked.
See for more details: https://www.benjaminkeep.com/misinformation-on-the-internet/
> If the wife gets ill, the marriage has about a 20% chance of ending because of it. If the husband becomes ill, there is only a 3% chance.
Wrong. That paper has been debunked already. See: https://www.benjaminkeep.com/misinformation-on-the-internet/
don’t fall for this type of nonsense :)
A few trends which might be relevant:
So, ~35yo first-time parents and/or ~40yo youngest-child parents, plus ~25-30yo children moving out ... That can get you to 65-70 years pretty easily.Alternately, it might be that the cohort now age 65+ was more likely to divorce than the previous generation at every age throughout their lives, and there were some kind of generational effects involved.
[dead]
Anecdotally, this rings true for me. Father walked out on mother essentially, when I was in my early 40s. Rocked my world thoroughly, hadn't seen it coming. Several years of therapy to come to terms with it.
Also anecdotally, I experienced the opposite. After three decades of constant fighting, the divorce was almost cathartic. Their marriage was more traumatic for me than their divorce.
Interestingly, their relationship became much better after and they are ok as friends now.
I wonder what percentage of our feelings on the spectrum of “ok yeah makes sense” vs “omg how could this happen” is even based on the actual marriage.
GP’s comment vs yours mirror my brother’s reaction vs my reaction when our parents divorced. Same divorce, completely different feelings about it.
Research suggests there is a big difference between how children experience divorce between high-functioning and low-functioning families - children from high-functioning families often experience parental divorce as traumatic, children from low-functioning families often experience it as a relief from ongoing traumatisation
Even within the same family, both divorce and dysfunction can be experienced very differently due to differences in each child’s individual psychology and also family dynamics (sometimes one child is made to bear the brunt of the dysfunction much more than the others-the “black sheep” versus the “golden child”)
I can second this - my parents were good friends after their divorce, as all of the issues of contention were related to sharing a house and relationship.
I would assume ones's parents divorce would be much easier to come to terms with for someone in their 40s compared to 20s, teens or kids (that doesn't mean it wouldn't suck).
my parents split and got divorced when i was in my 20s, and both of them had remarried within about 5 years. it didnt really bother me very much at all, i was already living very far away from home, and its good to see theyre both happier than they were before the divorce. the biggest change to me is i have to visit two houses when i go home for a holiday instead of just 1 house
>"Even for those relationships that were negatively strained, over time, the strained relationships mended," she says.
I was 54. my wife called it quits on me.
These days, my former wife and our three daughters are probably as happy and as communicative as we've ever been.
Mutually, putting our children as a high priority helped.
Bailing out on the responsibilities of caregiving of the spouse, thus forcing the burden onto adult children whose careers are cut short or obliterated may be one common reason this occurs.
How is this different than death ?
death is a single sad event. A specific day.
Unexpectedly becoming the sole caregiver of an aging parent seems different to me. I can imagine some resentment, especially if it’s unexpected _and_ one is already the caregiver for their own spouse, children, etc. It changes your life plans, adds additional daily stress in your life, and may also add financial stress.
everything you said also applies in the death of the other parent: unexpected, sole caregiver, aging parent, changes life plans
Even if they don’t divorce and one dies it changes your life plans
The only thing different is the bummer of divorce and the emotional fallout from it
Because you may have 2 different parents to care for instead of just 1. In general, this could also mean longer caregiving periods based on the ages of the divorce vs typical lifespan.
2 people to fund retirements for as separate people for many adult kids who have solid careers and irresponsible parents. Ignoring healthcare it’s about twice as expensive both in time and money.
HN folks I assume are expected to handle these sorts of obligations more than average due to tech career incomes.
My reaction to be thrust into this responsibility is different if my parent just up and left vs died.
It’s my responsibility into the later and me assuming their responsibility in the former.
"Crowley found that the women faced an "economic penalty" after divorce"
Something tells me this doesn't account for the court orders.
modern society has made it acceptable perhaps and some of these in their 60s feel it's their last chance to live life on their own terms.
All I can say is: duh!
Divorce doesn’t harm the family only when children are young. Marriage is a bond that forms a foundation for family networks. This nonsense about “unfulfilling marriage” is simply our hyperindividualism on shameless display. That’s not the job of your marriage, to offer you some kind of fantasy “fulfillment”. Your dissatisfaction is likely rooted in your self-centeredness. We know that selfish, self-centered, self-obsessed people are the most unhappy people. Well, here’s a thought: stop prioritizing your “happiness” and your “fulfillment” and be an adult. Recognize that your marriage is for the good of others. A large part of being an adult is to enable the common good of your family and your society. Your family depends on you. Your society depends on you. Divorce motivated by abuse is one thing, but “lack of fulfillment” is a sign of perpetual adolescence.
Want to be happy? Happiness is found in virtue. Learn to live for others and stop being a parasite who burdens his spouse with the impossible task of making you “happy”.
Different people can have different goals / purposes for the same institution.
Marriage is one example.
Another that comes to mind is going to college. Some see it as a chance to discover themselves, others see it as essentially a training program for specific careers.
From your profile, I'm guessing you approach this from a Judeo-Christian perspective? If you believe the institution of marriage is defined and ordained by God, then your normative view of it makes sense. Just be aware that not everyone in this discussion will share those assumptions.
> From your profile, I'm guessing you approach this from a Judeo-Christian perspective?
Perhaps they are someone stuck in a bad marriage but trying to justify it... Who knows?
My wife is from a time and place were divorce was almost unheard of. At first she was appalled at what she saw as bed-hopping here. But over time she came to realize that it really came down to stay in an unhappy situation or split and try to find someone you're happy with. Of the relationships of her cohort she is close enough to know the situation most are dead, no love, no sex. Nothing but saving face.
Marriage is about love and only love. What love means is personal and varies person to person of course. And it isn't a given two people remain in love for eternity - that's what makes marriages that stick for the right reasons so beautiful.
> Marriage is about love and only love.
If this were true, why would there be vows?
because if you say it out loud in front of people it makes it true-er!
> This tilt towards later-in-life divorce is happening for a mix of reasons, studies suggest.
My pet theory is an increase in treatments for "low testosterone" is a non-trivial contributor.
I’d be surprised if it made a dent… I’d probably first check the numbers on this… you are saying that because men can get their testosterone up even later in their lives, they either cheat, get sexually frustrated, or less likely to put up with their wives behavior? Interesting theory, but I would be surprised if the numbers supported this pet theory.
Men with higher testosterone has been linked to cheating in various studies--honestly I thought this was common knowledge. And treatments for "low t" (targeted at middle-aged and older males) have been more and more common over the past few decades. I guess it just seems fairly plausible.
[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31326436/
[2] https://www.apa.org/monitor/dec06/testosterone
[3] https://uk.style.yahoo.com/men-high-testosterone-more-likely...
Literally none of that supports your hypothesis, and you haven't established the first factor: are testosterone treatments statistically significant within the target demographic?
i have tried taking testosterone and it had several mind-blowing benefits and i can say with complete confidence that testosterone hrt is actually one of the most effective methods to save or hold together a heterosexual marriage. quite the opposite of what you think. such a shame that hrt is demonized by most people when its test rather than estrogen
Isn't the downside that once you're on TRT, your own body won't keep making testosterone, so you end up never being able to stop the injections?
I was on TRT for 10 years. Then I met an amazing woman, we wanted to start a family. Fertility clinic confirmed 0 sperm production. 6 months later she, she fell pregnant.
Obvious question: was she also sleeping with someone else at the time she got pregnant? Did you do a paternity test?
did you taper off? how did it feel?
I stopped nebido cold turkey, went on HMG and HCG by subcutaneous injection 3 days a week. Had a few chills and sweats at first, but mood impact was not noticeable. No change to training routine (HiiT, boxing muay thai and calisthenics). A few months along, I switched to enclopmiphene citrate (25mg daily).
your body does stop making its own but there is no clear answer as to whether or not your body loses the ability to restart its own endogenous production. thats how new and also ignored/understudied testosterone hrt is… if you wait a fee years there might be new information or biomarkers that can help answer this question.
there are other things you can do to preserve your bodies natural T production. there are medications that induce it but its not been studied for long term use. there is also another hormone you can take called HCG that will cause your body to continue making test but its difficult to use.
There is a clear answer - that is, it depends. Some people are able to (mostly) recover their own production and some aren’t. Bodies are complicated.
Me, too, and I agree it has helped in my marriage. I don't think it'd be helpful in all marriages, though. Particularly if you are in a career that puts you in high-temptation situations.
What were the benefits?
the biggest benefit was to my sleep and this is true of pretty much everyone who takes it. i was able to have very deep, restful and unbroken sleep. the best sleep of my life. normally i can barely sleep and wake up in the night and do not feel rested. ive been like that since my 20s and nothing touches it besides testosterone. other benefits include much better mood, a tendency to be much more open and likable, tons of energy and motivation behind everything i do and of course being much stronger is also nice. cardiovascular performance, the ability to do cardio heavy tasks and not get winded, massively increased. i loved it. but it made me less calculated and thoughtful which is important for my job so i decided to stop. i will almost certainly start again in the future.
even after stopping i noticed that there seems to be a lot more pressure on my heels when im standing. i think it has a positive effect on my default sympathetic tone or something like that. drawbacks are sleep apnea, hair loss and testicle shrinkage
[dead]