I just got done paying for my wedding. It was 3 years ago. Was the second one, first one was during Covid and we just went to a beach in pt. Reyes and did it for free. Having done the two, one for free w/ close friends, one w/ catering and a hotel and everything that I paid 60k for… don’t waste your money. Unless this is literally so disposable you think of the money like pocket change, it’s not worth it. My favorite photos are the beach wedding, my memories are the beach wedding. We had more fun, it was unscripted and spontaneous, I had more time with my favorite people, and I had more time with my wife to enjoy it.
If I could go back, I would save the 60k and just invest it in our home, our retirement, our savings. You don’t need a lavish party to show off, your friends don’t care. You won’t care. Skip it
I'm being invited to these sorts of weddings (albeit probably much lower key) for the first time as an adult (in 30s, since that's when it's happening these days), and it's actually seeming like an excessive cost just as a guest to put something formal together to wear. I've literally never had the occasion to wear any kind of proper suit or even anything close to formal wear until now, and it'll probably be a sudden non-trivial investment since there are a few of these lining up in the year. It's not helped by the fact that I'm not just an off-the-shelf build physically, and so while I'm grateful for the invites, it's money and stuff that I really could spend in other ways. The economy in Canada is shit rn, and if I wasn't lucky enough to have a job, I'd probably just consider declining on that basis. That plus a short domestic flight, accomodation, bachelor/bachelorette parties, etc.. it's crazy.
Earlier in the year, my lady and I were invited to the destination wedding of one of her close relatives, and simply told them no because it would have been a laughably expensive commitment that would have compromised our financial security. I get that people want to feel special or rationalize a big event, but I agree that if your family isn't shitting money or something to the point of making it trivial, it seems like kind of a silly idea.
> Unless this is literally so disposable you think of the money like pocket change, it’s not worth it.
Well yeah, spending tens of thousands of dollars on one party is insane unless you're royalty or just crazy rich. Everything about a wedding is overpriced and overhyped.
But it's one of those times when rationality is challenged by emotion and expectations that have been moulded throughout childhood.
Congrats on the free beach party wedding. That's a great idea. COVID or not.
My wife was a wedding coordinator for many years and we were both aghast at how anything dubbed "wedding" was magically 10x normal cost. I used to joke that wedding water would be next. Then some crafty bastard ran with the idea and started selling bottled water labeled for the events! I can't complain my joke turned into someone's side hustle but on the other hand we eloped and I don't regret it.
Part of the issue is that the wedding market it just outrageous. The average cost of a wedding or attending one is out of control. The industry has done a good job marketing it. Social media "keeping up with the joneses" or comparisons is not helping either.
It adds yet another piece of pressure so I'm not surprised that less people are jumping head first into it.
What other commenter said, plus covering bachelorette/bachelor parties (groom and bride don’t pay). Wedding gifts. Where I am from and you’re being accommodated- it’s kind of expected (and part of etiquette) to include cash with your gift to try to cover hotel and dining costs for yourself.
"The economic contract of marriage has shifted, and now young people are looking for financial stability before the wedding"
This is just an excuse. Nobody ever had financial stability before a wedding in the past. Everyone I know had parents and grandparents that were dirt poor when they got married (including my own).
I've been hearing about financial woes since 2000. I remember in 2005, people were complaining about how impossible it was for a single person to get an apartment. I got one this year on a below-average salary in a nice city.
In 2015, I remember hearing it was impossible to buy a house by anyone that isn't a boomer. I bought a house later this year (I'm not a boomer).
Even now, I keep hearing about people sending 900 resumes out (which doesn't make sense, if you are only looking for jobs in your industry) and only receiving a few call backs. I was looking for extra work earlier in the year and I sent out 20 resumes and got 10 call backs.
I have a feeling a lot of people are comparing where their parents ended to where they are starting, which isn’t a fair comparison. They should probably talk to their parents about what it was actually like. When my parents got their first apartment it didn’t even have a shower. They had to take baths and use a mug to fill it with water and wash their hair.
People also just love looking at averages for salary and home price, but they ignore that the average home has more than doubled in size. The average car today is also much faster, safer, and more luxurious than the old ones.
I bought a house from the late 1940s. What would have been “average” in the time everyone seems to want to compare themselves to. By most modern standards, it’s small, but it was also half the price of the “average” home today.
In terms of waiting for financial stability, I’d argue that it’s better not to wait. It eliminates all those prenuptial agreements, as neither person has anything. Then they can grow and a couple together. Wait too long, and they enter the relationship with too much that they’re worried about losing, and also more set in their ways.
The obsession with keeping up with the Jones’ has gotten out of control. The Jones’ aren’t just the most well-to-do on the street, now people are trying to compete on lifestyle with the most well-to-do in the country. Just a couple days ago I had someone knock on my door to sell fiber internet and he tried to tell me I need it to keep up with the Jones’. That’s where we’re at. It’s not about what you actually need, it’s what you can brag about. It’s so backward.
~40-50% of first marriages end before death in divorce (the number rises for second and third marriages). Prenuptials are important so when the marriage ends, it ends financially amicably and both parties can go on their own ways without much economic impact. Contracts are made during good times for when there is conflict to resolve.
Married almost 20 years myself, I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone, even though we are very happy together. There is just too much risk, most of your outcome is luck. I was lucky, as are others whose marriage lasts until death, but many are not. Date, love, explore, connect, enjoy lengths of a shared timeline together, but don’t get married. It’s a potentially unnecessary property and tax optimization agreement.
(the poly people I know use LLCs to manage shared property ownership and operating agreements, which seems to work without much issue, power of attorney and other legal instruments are available for medical directives, authority, and access between partners)
"Married almost 20 years myself, I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone, even though we are very happy together. There is just too much risk, most of your outcome is luck. I was lucky, as are others whose marriage lasts until death, but many are not. Date, love, explore, connect, enjoy lengths of a shared timeline together, but don’t get married. It’s a potentially unnecessary property and tax optimization agreement."
I've been married for 15 years myself. Like most things, luck comes to the prepared. When you are dating someone, you can tell within a year or two if you will be compatible in the long term.
Everyone in my friend group has been married for 10 years+ with no hints of divorce. We were all unmarried when we met. I don't think this is luck.
"(the poly people I know use LLCs to manage shared property ownership and operating agreements, which seems to work without much issue, power of attorney and other legal instruments are available for medical directives, authority, and access between partners)"
The poly people I know are always moving from one complete mess to another in terms of mental/emotional states. You aren't recommending marriage, but think a 'poly' relationship is any better?
> People also just love looking at averages for salary and home price, but they ignore that the average home has more than doubled in size. The average car today is also much faster, safer, and more luxurious than the old ones.
Capturing this dynamic is why the BLS has a hard job. If you can't buy a small shabby house in the area where you work and you can't buy a cheap car with no amenities and safety standards from 20 years ago then you're effectively poorer if you wanted that. All new housing construction in my area is giant houses and luxury apartments with no end in sight. According to the builders (because they make deals with the city who want to know why they can't make affordable housing) the economics don't work out otherwise.
I wasn’t mentioning fiber internet as a reason people couldn’t afford a house. I mentioned it as a recent example I personally ran into, where keeping up with the Joneses was explicitly given to me as a selling point, and I found it ridiculous. If people are worried about this on something as trivial as internet speed, it’s going to carry through to where they live, the car they drive, the clothes they wear, etc.
"You think the kids today can’t afford houses and families because they’re buying too much fiber internet.. and bragging about it?"
Small things add up. When you buy the latest phone, best Internet connection, booze, weed, latest video game, and online subscriptions, You certainly can't save for a house. Many of the younger generation are really in an extended state of childhood.
I'm not even close to a boomer, and sacrificed all of these things to save for a house/my future. While I was doing this, friends I knew had the latest phone, went partying every weekend, and spent money on their hobbies.
Guess who can't afford a house now?
"You just sound horribly out of touch and given your anecdotes don’t know what poverty or hardship was back in the day or is today."
I suspect there is a large class of young people that expect to continue the quality of life they had as late teens as soon as they get a place of their own in their 20s.
It’s certainly kinda hard to suddenly downshift into a quality of life they never experienced.
Newish car, nice apartment, frequently eating out, etc all isn’t going to work out on someone with an entry level job.
The difference is their parents were in their late 40s / early 50s, enjoying the benefits of being at peak earning capability with enough time to pay off cars/house, build savings, and be well past all the early expenses one has early in life.
Tbh this just seems like a classic "my anecdote disputes the reality for many" without seemingly any qualifiers or nuance.
Nobody ever said it was impossible to buy a house in general in any geography with a sufficient salary and ability to service any amount of debt. In the city I live in, the ratio between median income and cost of any home was wildly, comically more favorable for boomers, to the point where if you aren't literally rich already, you need to go become a rare doctor and shack up with an L6+ engineer at booming tech company to pull it off, then maintain that income 'till it's paid off.
If two people want to get married or find it useful, they'll do so regardless, on that point we might agree, but many people in the past just did so because they accidentally got pregnant and might have felt internal or external pressure from family to get married and not abort. My grandparents were broke as hell and got married at their rural community center, that's just what people did then, they weren't about to stretch for something glamorous.
Many people now look at the decisions of their parents during whatever time it was, including with houses, and think "well this is what mom and dad did, and they're both broke and divorced now, so maybe lets not do that this time"
"L6+ engineer at booming tech company to pull it off,"
You sound like you live in California. Many that live here voted for the strict regulations on everything and social programs that have no led to insane taxes and minimum home costs of $1,000,000.
This starts to look like socialism where you end up with two economic classes: rich and poor.
"Many people now look at the decisions of their parents during whatever time it was, including with houses, and think "well this is what mom and dad did, and they're both broke and divorced now, so maybe lets not do that this time""
I suppose when two parents make bad life decisions, this is what your model is in life.
Saw a friend's recent wedding video. It appears she hired a professional documentary film crew? Like there were multiple angles of the same events, Hollywood level production values etc.
It also seemed like she went down a checklist of "What to do in your wedding": the newlywed's funny walkout dance, throwing the bouquet, coastal scenery in the background.
The effect was to smack you over the head with "either her or his family is rich". Maybe that was the intended message?
I just got done paying for my wedding. It was 3 years ago. Was the second one, first one was during Covid and we just went to a beach in pt. Reyes and did it for free. Having done the two, one for free w/ close friends, one w/ catering and a hotel and everything that I paid 60k for… don’t waste your money. Unless this is literally so disposable you think of the money like pocket change, it’s not worth it. My favorite photos are the beach wedding, my memories are the beach wedding. We had more fun, it was unscripted and spontaneous, I had more time with my favorite people, and I had more time with my wife to enjoy it.
If I could go back, I would save the 60k and just invest it in our home, our retirement, our savings. You don’t need a lavish party to show off, your friends don’t care. You won’t care. Skip it
I'm being invited to these sorts of weddings (albeit probably much lower key) for the first time as an adult (in 30s, since that's when it's happening these days), and it's actually seeming like an excessive cost just as a guest to put something formal together to wear. I've literally never had the occasion to wear any kind of proper suit or even anything close to formal wear until now, and it'll probably be a sudden non-trivial investment since there are a few of these lining up in the year. It's not helped by the fact that I'm not just an off-the-shelf build physically, and so while I'm grateful for the invites, it's money and stuff that I really could spend in other ways. The economy in Canada is shit rn, and if I wasn't lucky enough to have a job, I'd probably just consider declining on that basis. That plus a short domestic flight, accomodation, bachelor/bachelorette parties, etc.. it's crazy.
Earlier in the year, my lady and I were invited to the destination wedding of one of her close relatives, and simply told them no because it would have been a laughably expensive commitment that would have compromised our financial security. I get that people want to feel special or rationalize a big event, but I agree that if your family isn't shitting money or something to the point of making it trivial, it seems like kind of a silly idea.
> Unless this is literally so disposable you think of the money like pocket change, it’s not worth it.
Well yeah, spending tens of thousands of dollars on one party is insane unless you're royalty or just crazy rich. Everything about a wedding is overpriced and overhyped.
But it's one of those times when rationality is challenged by emotion and expectations that have been moulded throughout childhood.
Congrats on the free beach party wedding. That's a great idea. COVID or not.
My wife was a wedding coordinator for many years and we were both aghast at how anything dubbed "wedding" was magically 10x normal cost. I used to joke that wedding water would be next. Then some crafty bastard ran with the idea and started selling bottled water labeled for the events! I can't complain my joke turned into someone's side hustle but on the other hand we eloped and I don't regret it.
Part of the issue is that the wedding market it just outrageous. The average cost of a wedding or attending one is out of control. The industry has done a good job marketing it. Social media "keeping up with the joneses" or comparisons is not helping either.
It adds yet another piece of pressure so I'm not surprised that less people are jumping head first into it.
>cost of... ...attending one is out of control
What costs are associated with attending a wedding?
Suits, dresses, flights, unless you plan to attend in basketball shorts and drive multiple states over (depending where people are located)
This is what I met. That and using PTO, dog sitting, a modest gift / card etc. It adds up.
If we’re talking “classic” wedding (venue, hotels, catering, bachelorette/bachelor parties, etc)…
What other commenter said, plus covering bachelorette/bachelor parties (groom and bride don’t pay). Wedding gifts. Where I am from and you’re being accommodated- it’s kind of expected (and part of etiquette) to include cash with your gift to try to cover hotel and dining costs for yourself.
Clothes, accommodation, gifts, alcohol, stag dos
"The economic contract of marriage has shifted, and now young people are looking for financial stability before the wedding"
This is just an excuse. Nobody ever had financial stability before a wedding in the past. Everyone I know had parents and grandparents that were dirt poor when they got married (including my own).
I've been hearing about financial woes since 2000. I remember in 2005, people were complaining about how impossible it was for a single person to get an apartment. I got one this year on a below-average salary in a nice city.
In 2015, I remember hearing it was impossible to buy a house by anyone that isn't a boomer. I bought a house later this year (I'm not a boomer).
Even now, I keep hearing about people sending 900 resumes out (which doesn't make sense, if you are only looking for jobs in your industry) and only receiving a few call backs. I was looking for extra work earlier in the year and I sent out 20 resumes and got 10 call backs.
I have a feeling a lot of people are comparing where their parents ended to where they are starting, which isn’t a fair comparison. They should probably talk to their parents about what it was actually like. When my parents got their first apartment it didn’t even have a shower. They had to take baths and use a mug to fill it with water and wash their hair.
People also just love looking at averages for salary and home price, but they ignore that the average home has more than doubled in size. The average car today is also much faster, safer, and more luxurious than the old ones.
I bought a house from the late 1940s. What would have been “average” in the time everyone seems to want to compare themselves to. By most modern standards, it’s small, but it was also half the price of the “average” home today.
In terms of waiting for financial stability, I’d argue that it’s better not to wait. It eliminates all those prenuptial agreements, as neither person has anything. Then they can grow and a couple together. Wait too long, and they enter the relationship with too much that they’re worried about losing, and also more set in their ways.
The obsession with keeping up with the Jones’ has gotten out of control. The Jones’ aren’t just the most well-to-do on the street, now people are trying to compete on lifestyle with the most well-to-do in the country. Just a couple days ago I had someone knock on my door to sell fiber internet and he tried to tell me I need it to keep up with the Jones’. That’s where we’re at. It’s not about what you actually need, it’s what you can brag about. It’s so backward.
they built their own house for €25k. And only my dad worked.
I bought a much smaller place for over €200k. Both me and my girl (need to) have full time jobs.
There is a big difference between where they started vs where I did. I will never get to where they started from
~40-50% of first marriages end before death in divorce (the number rises for second and third marriages). Prenuptials are important so when the marriage ends, it ends financially amicably and both parties can go on their own ways without much economic impact. Contracts are made during good times for when there is conflict to resolve.
Married almost 20 years myself, I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone, even though we are very happy together. There is just too much risk, most of your outcome is luck. I was lucky, as are others whose marriage lasts until death, but many are not. Date, love, explore, connect, enjoy lengths of a shared timeline together, but don’t get married. It’s a potentially unnecessary property and tax optimization agreement.
(the poly people I know use LLCs to manage shared property ownership and operating agreements, which seems to work without much issue, power of attorney and other legal instruments are available for medical directives, authority, and access between partners)
"Married almost 20 years myself, I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone, even though we are very happy together. There is just too much risk, most of your outcome is luck. I was lucky, as are others whose marriage lasts until death, but many are not. Date, love, explore, connect, enjoy lengths of a shared timeline together, but don’t get married. It’s a potentially unnecessary property and tax optimization agreement."
I've been married for 15 years myself. Like most things, luck comes to the prepared. When you are dating someone, you can tell within a year or two if you will be compatible in the long term.
Everyone in my friend group has been married for 10 years+ with no hints of divorce. We were all unmarried when we met. I don't think this is luck.
"(the poly people I know use LLCs to manage shared property ownership and operating agreements, which seems to work without much issue, power of attorney and other legal instruments are available for medical directives, authority, and access between partners)"
The poly people I know are always moving from one complete mess to another in terms of mental/emotional states. You aren't recommending marriage, but think a 'poly' relationship is any better?
> People also just love looking at averages for salary and home price, but they ignore that the average home has more than doubled in size. The average car today is also much faster, safer, and more luxurious than the old ones.
Capturing this dynamic is why the BLS has a hard job. If you can't buy a small shabby house in the area where you work and you can't buy a cheap car with no amenities and safety standards from 20 years ago then you're effectively poorer if you wanted that. All new housing construction in my area is giant houses and luxury apartments with no end in sight. According to the builders (because they make deals with the city who want to know why they can't make affordable housing) the economics don't work out otherwise.
> They had to take baths and use a mug to fill it with water and wash their hair.
Gasp surely not baths, however did they live?
> fiber internet and he tried to tell me I need it to keep up with the Jones’
You think the kids today can’t afford houses and families because they’re buying too much fiber internet.. and bragging about it?
You just sound horribly out of touch and given your anecdotes don’t know what poverty or hardship was back in the day or is today.
I wasn’t mentioning fiber internet as a reason people couldn’t afford a house. I mentioned it as a recent example I personally ran into, where keeping up with the Joneses was explicitly given to me as a selling point, and I found it ridiculous. If people are worried about this on something as trivial as internet speed, it’s going to carry through to where they live, the car they drive, the clothes they wear, etc.
"You think the kids today can’t afford houses and families because they’re buying too much fiber internet.. and bragging about it?"
Small things add up. When you buy the latest phone, best Internet connection, booze, weed, latest video game, and online subscriptions, You certainly can't save for a house. Many of the younger generation are really in an extended state of childhood.
I'm not even close to a boomer, and sacrificed all of these things to save for a house/my future. While I was doing this, friends I knew had the latest phone, went partying every weekend, and spent money on their hobbies.
Guess who can't afford a house now?
"You just sound horribly out of touch and given your anecdotes don’t know what poverty or hardship was back in the day or is today."
It sounds like you don't either.
I suspect there is a large class of young people that expect to continue the quality of life they had as late teens as soon as they get a place of their own in their 20s.
It’s certainly kinda hard to suddenly downshift into a quality of life they never experienced.
Newish car, nice apartment, frequently eating out, etc all isn’t going to work out on someone with an entry level job.
The difference is their parents were in their late 40s / early 50s, enjoying the benefits of being at peak earning capability with enough time to pay off cars/house, build savings, and be well past all the early expenses one has early in life.
It’s almost like people live vastly different lives and we’re not all the same…
Financial stability wasn't so important when you could easily get a mortgage with no deposit
Tbh this just seems like a classic "my anecdote disputes the reality for many" without seemingly any qualifiers or nuance.
Nobody ever said it was impossible to buy a house in general in any geography with a sufficient salary and ability to service any amount of debt. In the city I live in, the ratio between median income and cost of any home was wildly, comically more favorable for boomers, to the point where if you aren't literally rich already, you need to go become a rare doctor and shack up with an L6+ engineer at booming tech company to pull it off, then maintain that income 'till it's paid off.
If two people want to get married or find it useful, they'll do so regardless, on that point we might agree, but many people in the past just did so because they accidentally got pregnant and might have felt internal or external pressure from family to get married and not abort. My grandparents were broke as hell and got married at their rural community center, that's just what people did then, they weren't about to stretch for something glamorous.
Many people now look at the decisions of their parents during whatever time it was, including with houses, and think "well this is what mom and dad did, and they're both broke and divorced now, so maybe lets not do that this time"
"L6+ engineer at booming tech company to pull it off,"
You sound like you live in California. Many that live here voted for the strict regulations on everything and social programs that have no led to insane taxes and minimum home costs of $1,000,000.
This starts to look like socialism where you end up with two economic classes: rich and poor.
"Many people now look at the decisions of their parents during whatever time it was, including with houses, and think "well this is what mom and dad did, and they're both broke and divorced now, so maybe lets not do that this time""
I suppose when two parents make bad life decisions, this is what your model is in life.
Saw a friend's recent wedding video. It appears she hired a professional documentary film crew? Like there were multiple angles of the same events, Hollywood level production values etc.
It also seemed like she went down a checklist of "What to do in your wedding": the newlywed's funny walkout dance, throwing the bouquet, coastal scenery in the background.
The effect was to smack you over the head with "either her or his family is rich". Maybe that was the intended message?
And possibly relevant: she shared it on LinkedIn.
"Here's how overspending on my wedding improved B2B SaaS sales"
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