I think the MQ3 + the link cable is a good value, the MQ3 can play games off the Oculus store (Meta) but also Steam. My main complaint about it in standalone mode is that there is not a lot of memory for the web browser so it is a struggle to use WebXR on it, but hook it up to a PC and it is a lot better —- though I’d rather be able to reach standalone users.
There are many PCVR headsets at eye watering prices, there is an adapter for the PSVR 2 which I think adds up to something not far from the MQ3 + link cable but you don’t have the standalone.
PCVR has bigger games and applications with better graphics but when it comes to games with a lot of motion like Beat Saber and such, standalone is hard to beat.
VR is in what I think of as a "native DRM" market. Why did the iPod take off? Because everybody already had gigabytes of stolen music on their computers with no content gated by record label distribution deals. The MP3 format was universally used and all that was needed was hardware with an easy interface to take it on the go.
With VR, it's different. There's SteamVR, PSVR, HTC Vive, Oculus, all with their own DRM'd marketplaces , pricing structures and differences in content availability. It can't be taken on the go. Most people who game already have big screen TVs. So where exactly is the value?
We are still in the very early days of VR. Does anybody remember the late 1970s when personal computers were toys for enthusiasts and rich kids? They were not ergonomic and served no purpose to the general public that couldn’t be filled by the technology they already had. Eventually they reached a point where they had value to enough people that they “took off”.
I believe we’re still in that period for VR. VR has not found its “killer app” yet, the closest thing we have is Beat Saber. People aren’t willing to put up with the inconveniences and cost of VR just to play a handful of mediocre games that would work just as well in 2D.
Valve has been the company really pushing this space forward, The Lab and Half Life: Alyx are hailed as some of the best VR software there is. If anyone has the chops to make a headset and software with mass appeal, especially after the success of the Steam Deck, I think it’s them.
I also have a personal theory that deep in Apple’s R&D department, a “consumer” level headset is brewing, which is the real reason for the “Liquid Glass” push. Forcing it onto their OSes right now is a move to familiarize end-users and developers with the design language so the market will be more receptive to the VR device that’s in the works. I haven’t had the opportunity to try the Vision Pro, but it has a reputation for having the best fidelity and “pass through” capability on the market. If the “Vision Air” comes close and comes in under $1200 it might be the final push that VR needs to go mainstream.
I'd argue VR did have it's killer app, VRchat, and covid gave them a golden opportunity.
Unfortunately they chased user acquisition hard via non-vr modes and subscriptions rather than enabling creators using their platform highlighting what made such spaces unique. Updates actively made things more hostile to their most dedicated users, it was sad to see.
Eternal September got kicked into overdrive and most dedicated users either got pushed out or retreated entirely to private spaces. Lo and behold the mobile and casual VRless werent interested in spending money, so vrchats been running out of runway.
Personal computers were extremely expensive until the mid-90s when free consumer email and chat started making them a necessity. Microcomputers didn't exist until the 80s and were largely useless to people with jobs didn't require email, desktop publishing or spreadsheets.
VR is a recreational tool. People aren't waiting for the tech to be better to jump in en masse. It just isn't a need most people have.
The internet wasn't a need until the past 20 years or so, and yet it was a project that arguably began in the 1960s. Now governments worldwide are nearly mandating that everyone have an internet connection, not to mention a microcomputer with a high resolution color screen. I'd argue that microcomputers, although initially being targeted at business uses, were by and large seen by consumers as recreational tools as well until they found their niche, I would argue primarily as communication tools, inasmuch as mailing in paper forms is communication.
I think the problem is that right now, as with the internet and microcomputers, we can't see a use for VR that would necessitate its entrance into our everyday lives. That doesn't mean the use doesn't exist, it just hasn't been invented yet. There's no guarantee that will happen, but if it does I could VR could become a necessity just as high resolution displays, color graphics, and GPUs have. I think that people decrying VR's uselessness are forgetting the cycle we've been through with novel display and communication technologies time and time again.
This is me speculating: I think VRChat is a possible glimpse into what could make VR take off. Long range "presence" is very desirable. Apple seems to realize this with the 3D recordings that Vision Pro enables. If we could get anything close to "holographic" video chat, especially with multiple users, it could enable huge cost savings for businesses. Although many managers are loathe to approve remote work, if they could mandate virtual "presence" in a virtual office, that could dissuade heavy handed managers from requiring a physical presence, saving money on renting an office. Not to mention the appeal to consumers of being able to "visit" their loved ones from far away.
The industry is still thrashing around looking for a use for the technology, and they might stumble on it eventually, or they might not. Only time will tell.
You can make the best flying car in the world, but why should anyone care if they have no use for one?
The Metaverse idea was DOA, and not because of lack of VR headset quality, but just for the obvious reason that no-one wants to work that way. RTO or WFH with Zoom calls is enough.
The only use case for VR that seems to have taken off, to whatever extent it has, is gaming. If a new headset is a bit better, or cheaper, than another then it might be expected to do well, but it's not going to be headline news.
I want to like VR, but there is still just too much distracting internal reflection and stuff through the lenses for me.
I really want a good headset for watching movies at home in a virtual IMAX, but yeah every headset I have tried leads to distracting blooming or other glare and reflection issues with the lenses.
Yes the Apple Vision Pro is not good enough, neither is the Big Screen 2 at least to my standards.
Inconvenient, most of the times freaking expensive or vendor locked, no privacy - these are major reasons why it doesn't work out.
A good VR headset will be most probably a form of wireless screen (not a beafy computer) that is simple, lightweight (at most 200g in front of your face), cheap enough so you'll be able to wear it with you and not worry that something happens to it or be able to afford it for each member of your family without major effort and most of all - it should be replacing computer/laptop screen for daily tasks.
We could do it today, big tech is just holding us back with their vision of products
Meta is dead in the water with most gamers after they locked people out of their purchases and tried to shove a mandatory facebook login down everyone's throat.
Pimax is famous for over-promising and under-delivering - if they deliver at all, that is. Reddit is full of people complaining that they still haven't received their purchases from the launch before the last new announcement.
Apple’s Vision Pro was the price of a used car and you need to voluntarily lock yourself into Apple's ecosystem and pay 30% of all revenue to Apple for the privilege, so VR's biggest market (which is gaming) just said FY Apple and that's why it's one of the products with the highest return rate ever.
So you have Spyware vs. Vaporware vs. Masochism as your options. What a surprise that sales are down !!!! (not really)
I am in the market for a high-res VR headset for gaming. But there isn't any product for me to buy. Quest and Apple don't play well with PC. And for Pimax there's no shop actually selling them. (The article seems to agree, too. They have sales links to Meta and Apple, but no link for Pimax.)
> Meta is dead in the water with most gamers after they locked people out of their purchases and tried to shove a mandatory facebook login down everyone's throat.
They're literally going to have to wait until the next generation comes of age and has disposable money to spend on a VR headset. And even then, they'd better hope that generation didn't listen to their parents' warnings.
You can try getting an older HP Reverb G2. Microsoft discontinued Mixed Reality, but with the Oasis driver, you can still use them with Steam VR. They are usually pretty cheap too because they are discontinued. They are usually about $200 on Ebay right now.
Pretty high resolution, but they don't have foveated rendering so you need a beefy rig to run it.
Thanks for pointing out that Oasis driver, it looks really promising. I was struggling on deciding what to do with my old Mixed Reality hardware. This Lenovo Explorer kit was quite a deal back in the day. I played a lot of flight and space sims with it.
Yeah, one of my teammates in DCS just got one off a friend and I was like "Wasn't that discontinued?" Then he's like nope, some Microsoft developer wrote an open source driver! Although it has trouble with Windows 10 I guess. I'm pretty excited to fly in VR again!
There's lots of rumors/leaks that Valve has a successor to the index coming very soon that may check all the boxes for you, it may be worth keeping an eye out for that.
I would love to see that, the Valve index was pretty good. Also, in terms of companies which actually care about their customers, Valve is also one of the top.
> shove a mandatory facebook login down everyone's throat.
This hasn't been the case for many years now (they corrected, almost immediately). You need a Meta account, which is extremely minimal. After making that, you can optionally link facebook.
They're still heavy, take you out of a space so are even less social than normal gaming, there are not really the games that take advantage of them, the controls are awkward in many games and people feel motion sick after a fairly short amount of time playing with them, etc. etc. etc.
A bunch of my friends in VRChat dropped $1500 or so on Bigscreen Beyond 2e orders earlier this year, and are ecstatic to finally be receiving their kits. I'm eagerly awaiting my own ship date email in the next few weeks.
The people who are hooked are hooked, but it's in too slow of a growth curve to keep the attention of the hypergrowth omninationals. Inshallah the megacorps remain minor players.
The metaverse is here, for those with headsets to see. But all Meta will be remembered for in VR is sad tech "demos" that turned out faked, and, for a time at least, solid budget wireless headsets.
Mass media is still waiting for faster horses, but the real transhumanists already have one foot out of the physical world. (And sometimes four!)
To be honest, the new foveated rendering/eye tracking, makes headsets WAY better. Display resolutions and lenses have gotten way better too. But the investment has slacked off really hard. I love my H2 Reverb even more, now that I have an open source driver for it, after Windows discontinued it. However, a lot of companies just aren't that interested anymore.
Another problem is, that despite headsets getting better, the prices haven't come down. They are just extremely expensive devices that can't really compromise on quality while maintaining good results.
The backdrop is that electronic prices aren’t dropping the way they used to so you just can’t expect progression like PS2 -> PS3 -> PS4 -> PS5. The game software industry did not expect this trend when it was developing games 5 years ago and wound up with a generation of new games that require more expensive hardware than the typical gamer has.
Meta can’t announce an MQ4 when the MQ3 consumer is cost-motivated and instead of an MQ4 they came out with a cost-reduced MQ3S which is the brains of an MQ3 (software compatible) in the body of an MQ2.
The story is that Meta is looking for some escape from oldster-dominant Facebook but when I started focusing on the social features I met a lot of retirees who play Beat Saber and like to go on cruises and post pano videos on YouTube. I don’t think it helps with their demographic problems.
I have a big backlog of VR games which are similar to conventional video games, these are fun and all but they compete with so many flat games like Hollow Knight: Silksong and Arknights and such.
...made by a company that's really good at releasing cool demos and taking people's money, but really bad at actually delivering products to those people.
I don't want a device for a platform by Meta or Apple. Valve Deckard was what I was waiting for, which seems to be called Steam Frame now[0].
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveDeckard/comments/1n7sn17/gabe_...
> I don't want a device for a platform by Meta or Apple.
Meta headsets can be used for PCVR, for some time now, with link. You don't have to use the platform, but that platform definitely subsidizes it all.
I think the MQ3 + the link cable is a good value, the MQ3 can play games off the Oculus store (Meta) but also Steam. My main complaint about it in standalone mode is that there is not a lot of memory for the web browser so it is a struggle to use WebXR on it, but hook it up to a PC and it is a lot better —- though I’d rather be able to reach standalone users.
There are many PCVR headsets at eye watering prices, there is an adapter for the PSVR 2 which I think adds up to something not far from the MQ3 + link cable but you don’t have the standalone.
PCVR has bigger games and applications with better graphics but when it comes to games with a lot of motion like Beat Saber and such, standalone is hard to beat.
> PSVR 2 which I think adds up to something not far from the MQ3
Quest 3 has much better lenses. Through the lens comparison: https://youtu.be/MsudARM5AOw?feature=shared&t=172
VR is in what I think of as a "native DRM" market. Why did the iPod take off? Because everybody already had gigabytes of stolen music on their computers with no content gated by record label distribution deals. The MP3 format was universally used and all that was needed was hardware with an easy interface to take it on the go.
With VR, it's different. There's SteamVR, PSVR, HTC Vive, Oculus, all with their own DRM'd marketplaces , pricing structures and differences in content availability. It can't be taken on the go. Most people who game already have big screen TVs. So where exactly is the value?
We are still in the very early days of VR. Does anybody remember the late 1970s when personal computers were toys for enthusiasts and rich kids? They were not ergonomic and served no purpose to the general public that couldn’t be filled by the technology they already had. Eventually they reached a point where they had value to enough people that they “took off”.
I believe we’re still in that period for VR. VR has not found its “killer app” yet, the closest thing we have is Beat Saber. People aren’t willing to put up with the inconveniences and cost of VR just to play a handful of mediocre games that would work just as well in 2D.
Valve has been the company really pushing this space forward, The Lab and Half Life: Alyx are hailed as some of the best VR software there is. If anyone has the chops to make a headset and software with mass appeal, especially after the success of the Steam Deck, I think it’s them.
I also have a personal theory that deep in Apple’s R&D department, a “consumer” level headset is brewing, which is the real reason for the “Liquid Glass” push. Forcing it onto their OSes right now is a move to familiarize end-users and developers with the design language so the market will be more receptive to the VR device that’s in the works. I haven’t had the opportunity to try the Vision Pro, but it has a reputation for having the best fidelity and “pass through” capability on the market. If the “Vision Air” comes close and comes in under $1200 it might be the final push that VR needs to go mainstream.
I'd argue VR did have it's killer app, VRchat, and covid gave them a golden opportunity.
Unfortunately they chased user acquisition hard via non-vr modes and subscriptions rather than enabling creators using their platform highlighting what made such spaces unique. Updates actively made things more hostile to their most dedicated users, it was sad to see.
Eternal September got kicked into overdrive and most dedicated users either got pushed out or retreated entirely to private spaces. Lo and behold the mobile and casual VRless werent interested in spending money, so vrchats been running out of runway.
Personal computers were extremely expensive until the mid-90s when free consumer email and chat started making them a necessity. Microcomputers didn't exist until the 80s and were largely useless to people with jobs didn't require email, desktop publishing or spreadsheets.
VR is a recreational tool. People aren't waiting for the tech to be better to jump in en masse. It just isn't a need most people have.
The internet wasn't a need until the past 20 years or so, and yet it was a project that arguably began in the 1960s. Now governments worldwide are nearly mandating that everyone have an internet connection, not to mention a microcomputer with a high resolution color screen. I'd argue that microcomputers, although initially being targeted at business uses, were by and large seen by consumers as recreational tools as well until they found their niche, I would argue primarily as communication tools, inasmuch as mailing in paper forms is communication.
I think the problem is that right now, as with the internet and microcomputers, we can't see a use for VR that would necessitate its entrance into our everyday lives. That doesn't mean the use doesn't exist, it just hasn't been invented yet. There's no guarantee that will happen, but if it does I could VR could become a necessity just as high resolution displays, color graphics, and GPUs have. I think that people decrying VR's uselessness are forgetting the cycle we've been through with novel display and communication technologies time and time again.
This is me speculating: I think VRChat is a possible glimpse into what could make VR take off. Long range "presence" is very desirable. Apple seems to realize this with the 3D recordings that Vision Pro enables. If we could get anything close to "holographic" video chat, especially with multiple users, it could enable huge cost savings for businesses. Although many managers are loathe to approve remote work, if they could mandate virtual "presence" in a virtual office, that could dissuade heavy handed managers from requiring a physical presence, saving money on renting an office. Not to mention the appeal to consumers of being able to "visit" their loved ones from far away.
The industry is still thrashing around looking for a use for the technology, and they might stumble on it eventually, or they might not. Only time will tell.
You can make the best flying car in the world, but why should anyone care if they have no use for one?
The Metaverse idea was DOA, and not because of lack of VR headset quality, but just for the obvious reason that no-one wants to work that way. RTO or WFH with Zoom calls is enough.
The only use case for VR that seems to have taken off, to whatever extent it has, is gaming. If a new headset is a bit better, or cheaper, than another then it might be expected to do well, but it's not going to be headline news.
I want to like VR, but there is still just too much distracting internal reflection and stuff through the lenses for me.
I really want a good headset for watching movies at home in a virtual IMAX, but yeah every headset I have tried leads to distracting blooming or other glare and reflection issues with the lenses.
Yes the Apple Vision Pro is not good enough, neither is the Big Screen 2 at least to my standards.
Inconvenient, most of the times freaking expensive or vendor locked, no privacy - these are major reasons why it doesn't work out.
A good VR headset will be most probably a form of wireless screen (not a beafy computer) that is simple, lightweight (at most 200g in front of your face), cheap enough so you'll be able to wear it with you and not worry that something happens to it or be able to afford it for each member of your family without major effort and most of all - it should be replacing computer/laptop screen for daily tasks.
We could do it today, big tech is just holding us back with their vision of products
Eww...
Meta is dead in the water with most gamers after they locked people out of their purchases and tried to shove a mandatory facebook login down everyone's throat.
Pimax is famous for over-promising and under-delivering - if they deliver at all, that is. Reddit is full of people complaining that they still haven't received their purchases from the launch before the last new announcement.
Apple’s Vision Pro was the price of a used car and you need to voluntarily lock yourself into Apple's ecosystem and pay 30% of all revenue to Apple for the privilege, so VR's biggest market (which is gaming) just said FY Apple and that's why it's one of the products with the highest return rate ever.
So you have Spyware vs. Vaporware vs. Masochism as your options. What a surprise that sales are down !!!! (not really)
I am in the market for a high-res VR headset for gaming. But there isn't any product for me to buy. Quest and Apple don't play well with PC. And for Pimax there's no shop actually selling them. (The article seems to agree, too. They have sales links to Meta and Apple, but no link for Pimax.)
> Meta is dead in the water with most gamers after they locked people out of their purchases and tried to shove a mandatory facebook login down everyone's throat.
They're literally going to have to wait until the next generation comes of age and has disposable money to spend on a VR headset. And even then, they'd better hope that generation didn't listen to their parents' warnings.
You can try getting an older HP Reverb G2. Microsoft discontinued Mixed Reality, but with the Oasis driver, you can still use them with Steam VR. They are usually pretty cheap too because they are discontinued. They are usually about $200 on Ebay right now.
Pretty high resolution, but they don't have foveated rendering so you need a beefy rig to run it.
Thanks for pointing out that Oasis driver, it looks really promising. I was struggling on deciding what to do with my old Mixed Reality hardware. This Lenovo Explorer kit was quite a deal back in the day. I played a lot of flight and space sims with it.
Yeah, one of my teammates in DCS just got one off a friend and I was like "Wasn't that discontinued?" Then he's like nope, some Microsoft developer wrote an open source driver! Although it has trouble with Windows 10 I guess. I'm pretty excited to fly in VR again!
There's lots of rumors/leaks that Valve has a successor to the index coming very soon that may check all the boxes for you, it may be worth keeping an eye out for that.
I would love to see that, the Valve index was pretty good. Also, in terms of companies which actually care about their customers, Valve is also one of the top.
> shove a mandatory facebook login down everyone's throat.
This hasn't been the case for many years now (they corrected, almost immediately). You need a Meta account, which is extremely minimal. After making that, you can optionally link facebook.
I will not buy or use Apple or Meta and that's most of the market.
And I'm far more interested in AR anyway.
This is my first time seeing the term XR (Extended Reality) and I like it because it implies the inevitability of ER (Extinguished Reality)
They're still heavy, take you out of a space so are even less social than normal gaming, there are not really the games that take advantage of them, the controls are awkward in many games and people feel motion sick after a fairly short amount of time playing with them, etc. etc. etc.
Everyone pivotted to Ai.
A bunch of my friends in VRChat dropped $1500 or so on Bigscreen Beyond 2e orders earlier this year, and are ecstatic to finally be receiving their kits. I'm eagerly awaiting my own ship date email in the next few weeks.
The people who are hooked are hooked, but it's in too slow of a growth curve to keep the attention of the hypergrowth omninationals. Inshallah the megacorps remain minor players.
The metaverse is here, for those with headsets to see. But all Meta will be remembered for in VR is sad tech "demos" that turned out faked, and, for a time at least, solid budget wireless headsets.
Mass media is still waiting for faster horses, but the real transhumanists already have one foot out of the physical world. (And sometimes four!)
Meta can't be trusted. The data collection, the user hostility. I don't care how good it gets.
Odd choice to have the headline in present-tense ("are better") but then list a bunch of products that sound promising but aren't yet available...
To be honest, the new foveated rendering/eye tracking, makes headsets WAY better. Display resolutions and lenses have gotten way better too. But the investment has slacked off really hard. I love my H2 Reverb even more, now that I have an open source driver for it, after Windows discontinued it. However, a lot of companies just aren't that interested anymore.
Another problem is, that despite headsets getting better, the prices haven't come down. They are just extremely expensive devices that can't really compromise on quality while maintaining good results.
The backdrop is that electronic prices aren’t dropping the way they used to so you just can’t expect progression like PS2 -> PS3 -> PS4 -> PS5. The game software industry did not expect this trend when it was developing games 5 years ago and wound up with a generation of new games that require more expensive hardware than the typical gamer has.
Meta can’t announce an MQ4 when the MQ3 consumer is cost-motivated and instead of an MQ4 they came out with a cost-reduced MQ3S which is the brains of an MQ3 (software compatible) in the body of an MQ2.
The story is that Meta is looking for some escape from oldster-dominant Facebook but when I started focusing on the social features I met a lot of retirees who play Beat Saber and like to go on cruises and post pano videos on YouTube. I don’t think it helps with their demographic problems.
I have a big backlog of VR games which are similar to conventional video games, these are fun and all but they compete with so many flat games like Hollow Knight: Silksong and Arknights and such.
Sounds like the VR headset problem in a nutshell to me.
...made by a company that's really good at releasing cool demos and taking people's money, but really bad at actually delivering products to those people.