> I told some friends about it, and they said, yes, and we have "Pennsyltucky" too. But when I looked that up, it wasn't nearly so demeaning as "Counciltucky". It basically just means Pennsylvania minus the Pittsburgh and Philadelphia metropolitan areas
The size of the area has nothing to do with how demeaning the term is. The term is centered on calling the region, to oversimplify, an underdeveloped poor rural backwater.
Just because Pennsylvania has a larger chunk of land that some would describe that way than Council Bluffs does doesn't inherently change that both terms are demeaning.
I haven't been to Council Bluffs, but I have spent time in parts of Pennsylvania outside the Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and State College metros, and while I'm not going to proclaim wisdom without having lived there I certainly saw where the term and stereotype came from.
As someone who grew up an hour outside of Pittsburgh, and has cousins from Kentucky, I can confirm that there’s rather good reason to associate the two areas. Very similar cultures, so to speak.
I live in Lincoln, so about 50 miles south of Omaha. I think a crucial point left out by the author here may be the massive (at least perceived) demographic disparities between Omaha and Council Bluffs.
Council Bluffs is a vastly less financially successful city than Omaha with far more visible opioid problems.
That is to say, as a local, I don’t know if I would associate the term as much with demeaning “hillbillies or hicks” but more for the socioeconomic and drug disparities between the two cities.
I don’t know if the drug disparity is so large between them, but it certainly feels more visible in Council Bluffs. Maybe why we don’t see the -tucky suffix used as much with other twin cities is that St Paul and Fort Worth are still quite successful metropolitan areas in their own right.
Cincinatti has the real Kentucky across the river. I wonder what that's like. (The reverse could be said as well, and I haven't been to Cincinatti but I'd like to go some day, partly because I saw the Kaufman movie Anomalisa which is set there, and I made a point to check out Schenectady from another Kaufman movie and I was glad I did.)
I was lucky enough to be the only person who showed up for my tour slot, so the guide and I had a lot of time to talk about the art deco, the history, etc.
Oddly enough, the Kentucky side of Cincinnati is nicer than the OH side, at least near the river.
It's worth checking out, but I found downtown Cinci weird. It was completely lifeless at night. Haven't been in 15 years or so, so it's entirely possible that's changed now. Other than that, it's a neat area. Make sure to checkout Jungle Jim's, it's a unique enough store worth a visit.
It's crazy how the etymology of "Kentucky" cannot be traced with certainty. Goes to show how much of the native American culture and language is now untraceable and how fragile our record-keeping is, even in "modern times".
The etymology I’ve heard isn’t even listed in the article.
One theory traces “Kentucky” to early forms like Cantucky or Cane-tucky, referring to the region’s vast river-cane brakes, Kentucky River cane, North America’s only native bamboo, which early inhabitants associated with fertile, game-rich land.
But Dallas, as people in my circles talk about Dallas is everything from Denton / Lewisville maybe even Little Elm / Prosper / Celina to Waxahachie. Dallas Fort Worth is not a twin city at all in my opinion.
The author (Victor Mair) of the piece makes two errors:
(1) Omaha and Council Bluffs are not twin cities. The former doesn't think about the latter, and the latter sees the former as workplace, shopping mall and zoo.
(2) The residents of Omaha didn't coin the term 'Counciltucky.' That privilege belongs to the residents of Council Bluffs themselves.
Reference: a former resident of Council Bluffs who is a current resident of Omaha.
They make a third error, which is claiming that Pennsyltucky is not primarily used derogatorily. It's absolutely a pejorative for the region, not "just a name".
"Pennsyltucky" doesn't necessarily mean "the rural parts of PA." It can mean "the swath of country roughly from Pennsylvania to Kentucky" or "places like that" or it can be even broader than that. Or it can simply mean "Pennsylvania." It's really not so easy to pigeonhole this stuff. Not accurately anyway.
It's helpful to write these things down. What's not helpful is using them as if they were precise and definitive.
EDIT: If you've badgered me in an attempt to get a different answer, try Google or Wikipedia.
Are you saying those are additional possible meanings of Pennsyltucky, or that you've heard people use it to mean all of those?
I have only ever heard it used to mean the rural areas between the two cities, in keeping with the saying "Pittsburgh on one side, Philly on the other, and Kentucky in between", which has of course confused people not familiar with the stereotypes or geography.
The other famous use of Pennsyltucky is the character in Orange is the New Black, which I've always taken to mean "she acts like she's from Pennsyltucky".
I guess we need to wait for the term to be used enough to get into a dictionary to get it well defined
Where have you ever seen it to refer to the entire state, or as anything other than a derogatory term for the people who don't live in the Philly or Pittsburgh metro areas?
Edit: you aren't being badgered, you made something up and refuse to acknowledge that for whatever reason.
It’s not easy to express negative things. No matter how many neutral terms we invent, they become pejorative in the end and we have to invent new ones by switching the words around.
It's plenty easy to express negative things. What's not easy is convincing people that negative things are actually positive, which is why words that refer to negative things are perceived as being negative words.
retard, v.
[ad. F. retarder (13th c., = Sp. and Pg. retardar, It. ritardare), or L. retardāre, f. re- re- + tardus slow.]
1.1 trans. To keep back, to delay, hinder, impede (a person or thing in respect of progress, movement, action, or accomplishment).
c 1489 Caxton Blanchardyn xxiii. 75 Here is one doubte that retardeth myne ymagynacyon.
1636 Denham Destr. Troy 423 The one retarded was By feeble age, the other by a wound.
1660 F. Brooke tr. Le Blanc's Trav. 260 The sight of this fishing retarded us above an houre.
2.2 To delay the progress or accomplishment, to impede the course, of (an action, movement, etc.).
1572 Reg. Privy Council Scot. II. 158 That sa haly a work be not retardit.
1610 B. Jonson Alch. iv. v, This'll retard The worke, a month at least.
1642 C. Vernon Consid. Exch. 91 The principal causes which have hindred and retarded the due answering of the Kings Revenues and Debts.
b.2.b To defer, postpone, put off. rare.
1735 in Pope's Lett. Suppl. 11 He retarded his Edition of Mr. Cromwell's Letters till the Twenty-Second of March.
1820 Scott Monast. xvi, If we were now either to advance or retard the hour of refection beyond the time.
3.3 intr. To be delayed; to come, appear, or happen later; to undergo retardation.
1646 Sir T. Browne Pseud. Ep. 194 Putrefaction‥shall retard or accelerate according to the subject and season of the year.
1665 Phil. Trans. I. 38 The Comet advances‥towards the East, and‥retards towards the West.
1738 Ibid. XL. 312 The next Evening it retarded two Hours.
b.3.b To delay to do something. rare—1.
a 1732 Gay Tales, Apparition, Call loud on Justice, bid her not retard To punish murder.
As a noun:
1.1 Retardation, delay. in retard, retarded, delayed; in the rear of.
1788 Jefferson Writ. 1859 II. 353 A single day's retard.
1865 Carlyle Fredk. Gt. xv. x. (1872) VI. 65 The rearward regiments‥are in painful retard.
1886 Ruskin Præterita I. iv. 132, I was far in retard of them in real knowledge.
2.2 retard of the tide or retard of high water, the interval between the moon's transit and the high water following upon this. Also ellipt.
1833 Phil. Trans. CXXIII. 19 The retard‥at Portsmouth appears to be intermediate between that at Brest and at London.
1845 Encycl. Metrop. V. 257* marg., Retard of high water upon the moon's transit.
1862 New Amer. Cycl. XV. 471 At Boston, this delay, which is called the retard, or age of the tide, is nearly 36 hours.
3.3 A device in a motor vehicle for retarding the ignition spark.
1932 Motoring Encycl. 10/3 The Bosch automatic advance and retard (Fig. 3) is a simple design for a stationary armature type of magneto.
1977 Hot Car Oct. 75/3 The old one is capped off still retaining the advance retard.
4.4 U.S. slang. A mentally retarded person.
1970 Time 23 Mar. 49 There are‥heroin addicts, Air Force and CIA mental retards and Broadway Indians doing a Broadway Snake Dance.
Noun sense 4.4 there comes from the medical use, which is a euphemistic reference to verb sense 1.1.
I don't know whether the noun retard developed within medicine from the medical use. But this much is clear:
1. The word retarded (not retard) was employed in an effort to be technical and sensitive in referring to people with mental deficiencies;
2. The same word, retarded, entered general use in reference to people with (more broadly-construed) mental deficiencies;
3. The noun retard derived straightforwardly from retarded, in the sense "person who is retarded". This might have happened before step 2 and then entered general use in parallel with retarded, or it might have happened after step 2. Doesn't really matter.
I have heard that the name of Kentucky derives from a "cane-tuck"—a copse of river cane, a kind of bamboo native to North America.
(My only source for this was someone who had learned of the existence of river cane in their Kentucky backyard, and was doing an enthusiastic deep research dive into it. It may or may not be true, but it's at least an interesting possibility!)
I remember "-tucky" being used in my part of Southeastern Michigan, in the early 1980s. It may have been related to the historical migration of people from Appalachia to the Detroit area during the heyday of the car industry.
I grew up in a twin city and it's OK. It isn't an insult, St Paul and Minneapolis are close. There's no "-tucky" understanding though. They are different cities and that's fine...
Someone jokingly referred to Glendale, AZ as "Glentucky" once in my presence. I don't remember exactly when and where, I think I remember who, but I am pretty sure it was "Glentucky" even though "Glenducky" would have also worked. :D
> I told some friends about it, and they said, yes, and we have "Pennsyltucky" too. But when I looked that up, it wasn't nearly so demeaning as "Counciltucky". It basically just means Pennsylvania minus the Pittsburgh and Philadelphia metropolitan areas
The size of the area has nothing to do with how demeaning the term is. The term is centered on calling the region, to oversimplify, an underdeveloped poor rural backwater.
Just because Pennsylvania has a larger chunk of land that some would describe that way than Council Bluffs does doesn't inherently change that both terms are demeaning.
I haven't been to Council Bluffs, but I have spent time in parts of Pennsylvania outside the Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and State College metros, and while I'm not going to proclaim wisdom without having lived there I certainly saw where the term and stereotype came from.
Funny seeing State College referred to as a metro on HN :)
I think one difference is that rural PA and Kentucky have a lot of positive similarities, both being in greater Appalachia. Not as clearly so with CB.
"Metro" may not be merited, but "local area that doesn't feel like Kentucky" is way more characters. ;)
As someone who grew up an hour outside of Pittsburgh, and has cousins from Kentucky, I can confirm that there’s rather good reason to associate the two areas. Very similar cultures, so to speak.
I live in Lincoln, so about 50 miles south of Omaha. I think a crucial point left out by the author here may be the massive (at least perceived) demographic disparities between Omaha and Council Bluffs.
Council Bluffs is a vastly less financially successful city than Omaha with far more visible opioid problems.
That is to say, as a local, I don’t know if I would associate the term as much with demeaning “hillbillies or hicks” but more for the socioeconomic and drug disparities between the two cities.
I don’t know if the drug disparity is so large between them, but it certainly feels more visible in Council Bluffs. Maybe why we don’t see the -tucky suffix used as much with other twin cities is that St Paul and Fort Worth are still quite successful metropolitan areas in their own right.
Cincinatti has the real Kentucky across the river. I wonder what that's like. (The reverse could be said as well, and I haven't been to Cincinatti but I'd like to go some day, partly because I saw the Kaufman movie Anomalisa which is set there, and I made a point to check out Schenectady from another Kaufman movie and I was glad I did.)
When you go, be sure to check out Union Terminal, and catch one of the free tours. Amazing place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_Union_Terminal
I was lucky enough to be the only person who showed up for my tour slot, so the guide and I had a lot of time to talk about the art deco, the history, etc.
Oddly enough, the Kentucky side of Cincinnati is nicer than the OH side, at least near the river.
It's worth checking out, but I found downtown Cinci weird. It was completely lifeless at night. Haven't been in 15 years or so, so it's entirely possible that's changed now. Other than that, it's a neat area. Make sure to checkout Jungle Jim's, it's a unique enough store worth a visit.
It's crazy how the etymology of "Kentucky" cannot be traced with certainty. Goes to show how much of the native American culture and language is now untraceable and how fragile our record-keeping is, even in "modern times".
The etymology I’ve heard isn’t even listed in the article. One theory traces “Kentucky” to early forms like Cantucky or Cane-tucky, referring to the region’s vast river-cane brakes, Kentucky River cane, North America’s only native bamboo, which early inhabitants associated with fertile, game-rich land.
In that theory, where does the "tucky" come from?
> Dallas-Fort Worth
But Dallas, as people in my circles talk about Dallas is everything from Denton / Lewisville maybe even Little Elm / Prosper / Celina to Waxahachie. Dallas Fort Worth is not a twin city at all in my opinion.
I would love to hear your opinion.
Caveat: I haven't lived in Dallas for a long time.
But there was a definite cut-off past which it wasn't "Dallas" to us, anymore. Anything west of Arlington was definitely Fort Worth.
But I wonder if people from Fort Worth considered Arlington to be part of their city, and anything east of Grand Prairie was their cut-off line.
I suspect not. There's a large natural physical barrier stretching from Kennedale to Mosier Valley.
Village Creek is the cultural divide betweenvthe cities on both sides.
It shows how long it's been since I lived there, and how little I went to Fort Worth - none of those names ring any bell to me at all.
The author (Victor Mair) of the piece makes two errors:
(1) Omaha and Council Bluffs are not twin cities. The former doesn't think about the latter, and the latter sees the former as workplace, shopping mall and zoo.
(2) The residents of Omaha didn't coin the term 'Counciltucky.' That privilege belongs to the residents of Council Bluffs themselves.
Reference: a former resident of Council Bluffs who is a current resident of Omaha.
They make a third error, which is claiming that Pennsyltucky is not primarily used derogatorily. It's absolutely a pejorative for the region, not "just a name".
Try the Quad (or Quint) Cities if you want a dynamic with more than two cities. Three on the Illinois side, one (or two) on the Iowa side.
(It started as a “tri cities” so the bump to five isn’t the first it’s seen)
Bonus points: an OK native pizza style if you like tavern-ish pizza varieties.
Related to TFA, a “judgmental map” of Omaha and Council Bluffs:
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/0a/db/ea/0adbea3bcdffbcb4ccfe6ec10...
Warning that these are usually offensive, or at least have the potential to offend (but often super helpful when visiting a new city…)
Council Bluffs just gets a blanket “meth and casinos” label.
"Pennsyltucky" doesn't necessarily mean "the rural parts of PA." It can mean "the swath of country roughly from Pennsylvania to Kentucky" or "places like that" or it can be even broader than that. Or it can simply mean "Pennsylvania." It's really not so easy to pigeonhole this stuff. Not accurately anyway.
It's helpful to write these things down. What's not helpful is using them as if they were precise and definitive.
EDIT: If you've badgered me in an attempt to get a different answer, try Google or Wikipedia.
Are you saying those are additional possible meanings of Pennsyltucky, or that you've heard people use it to mean all of those?
I have only ever heard it used to mean the rural areas between the two cities, in keeping with the saying "Pittsburgh on one side, Philly on the other, and Kentucky in between", which has of course confused people not familiar with the stereotypes or geography.
The other famous use of Pennsyltucky is the character in Orange is the New Black, which I've always taken to mean "she acts like she's from Pennsyltucky".
I guess we need to wait for the term to be used enough to get into a dictionary to get it well defined
Nowhere on Google or Wikipedia is there any suggestion that the word "Pennsyltucky" can ever include the urban parts of Pennsylvania.
Where have you ever seen it to refer to the entire state, or as anything other than a derogatory term for the people who don't live in the Philly or Pittsburgh metro areas?
Edit: you aren't being badgered, you made something up and refuse to acknowledge that for whatever reason.
I love the way “badgered” seems to have become the new word for “I’m wrong but don’t want to admit it.”
Just the other day someone was complaining about being “badgered” for not being willing to read the OP before commenting on it.
It’s not easy to express negative things. No matter how many neutral terms we invent, they become pejorative in the end and we have to invent new ones by switching the words around.
It's plenty easy to express negative things. What's not easy is convincing people that negative things are actually positive, which is why words that refer to negative things are perceived as being negative words.
Yep, like the word "retard" was a medical term when it was first coined.
So was “moron”. “Below average” is an insult too, yet we couldn’t ask for a more general term.
And it's still a perfectly neutral term in French, where your "Delayed" flight is "Retardé".
When was it first coined?
As a verb:
As a noun: ~ Oxford English Dictionary Second Edition (CD-ROM v. 4.0 © Oxford University Press 2009)Noun sense 4.4 there comes from the medical use, which is a euphemistic reference to verb sense 1.1.
I don't know whether the noun retard developed within medicine from the medical use. But this much is clear:
1. The word retarded (not retard) was employed in an effort to be technical and sensitive in referring to people with mental deficiencies;
2. The same word, retarded, entered general use in reference to people with (more broadly-construed) mental deficiencies;
3. The noun retard derived straightforwardly from retarded, in the sense "person who is retarded". This might have happened before step 2 and then entered general use in parallel with retarded, or it might have happened after step 2. Doesn't really matter.
I have heard that the name of Kentucky derives from a "cane-tuck"—a copse of river cane, a kind of bamboo native to North America.
(My only source for this was someone who had learned of the existence of river cane in their Kentucky backyard, and was doing an enthusiastic deep research dive into it. It may or may not be true, but it's at least an interesting possibility!)
I remember "-tucky" being used in my part of Southeastern Michigan, in the early 1980s. It may have been related to the historical migration of people from Appalachia to the Detroit area during the heyday of the car industry.
I grew up in a twin city and it's OK. It isn't an insult, St Paul and Minneapolis are close. There's no "-tucky" understanding though. They are different cities and that's fine...
Portland OR has "Vantucky" (Vancouver WA)
Another -ucky is Ventucky, CA which is a local name for Ventura as mixture of Kentucky and beach town.
Someone jokingly referred to Glendale, AZ as "Glentucky" once in my presence. I don't remember exactly when and where, I think I remember who, but I am pretty sure it was "Glentucky" even though "Glenducky" would have also worked. :D
I’ve often heard “Fontucky” for Fontana CA.
Cf. Spokompton (Spokane, WA + Compton).