The really special thing about Frameworks is that you can quickly buy and replace basically any part, not just the usual RAM and SSD -- case in point, when I managed to damage my FW13's keyboard such that it was no longer usable, I could just... go straight to Framework's website and buy a new one for $40. And, I even had the option of a slightly improved one, that shed the Windows key and lacked the god-awful copilot key.
This approach even allows the manufacturer to correct design flaws after the fact -- and let's face it, there will always be design flaws. For instance, my FW13 originally came with a very weak hinge for the screen. It was perfectly usable for most daily usage and most people probably wouldn't care, but it meant I couldn't hold it up without the screen tilting back. Well, FW corrected this for those customers who really did care by just selling a new hinge for $24, and so $24 + 10 minutes with a screwdriver later, I had a substantially more refined device! (And to clarify -- there was a defective hinge version in the early batches, and those were replaced free of charge. Mine was a slightly later version that, beyond lacking the level of stiffness I preferred, was not defective.)
Being able to replace the keyboard is especially wonderful because laptops are usually "region-locked". I know people who use relatively unpopular layouts relative to where they live, and it makes it harder to buy and much harder to sell their Macs.
This curse extends to mechanical keyboards as well. There exists all sorts of fancy, beautiful and odd keycap sets... for Americans. Some times for German and French. If I get really lucky, I'll find some with a "Nordic" layout, which is an abomination that combines dk/se/no.
And I thank god every day we don't. The ISO keyboard is awful. Left shift is too important of a key to be 1u. I don't need a massive enter key that lives on two rows. Just insane choices.
I use a Dvorak-based layout on Qwerty keyboards, so in normal usage they could as well have blank keycaps.
Despite that, the Qwerty keycaps remain useful for me, because my keyboards are not programmable, so the key mapping is done by the operating system. When I have to unlock the computer with a password, after booting, the keyboard still works as Qwerty and the keycaps help me in entering the password, because nowadays I touch-type only on Dvorak, while on Qwerty I must return to hunt-and-peck, as there are many years since I stopped using Qwerty.
So only because of this password entering, I prefer to not have blank keycaps, even if I ignore them in normal usage.
They're really not -- Mac scissor switches are pretty delicate, and it's easy to do damage to the tiny plastic nubs on the keycaps or the switches... and if you damage the metal retaining frame in any way, you're toast (Mac laptop keyboards are virtually unreplaceable, being buried in the "bottom" of the unibody chassis).
I think they mean different regions have physically different layouts. I supported users in different countries and know that French layouts are different than Hebrew layouts which are different from English layouts and so on. Trying to buy different key caps doesn’t give the user a native layout because the shapes of the layouts are somewhat different.
I was hoping that this is how it would work for System76 -- when I bought the laptop they sold replacement batteries. Five years later I find myself needing a battery and they are unavailable -- not on System76's website, not online, nowhere. My only option is to either replace the laptop or buy a used one and take the battery from that, hoping that it's good.
For the last six months I've just been using a laptop as a mini pc with no battery.
Yeah, but is it OEM? Even big names like Dell don't support their parts for that long, and you have to resort to getting sketchy third-party parts from China, or rolling the dice on a used OEM part.
> The hardware supplier that we use no longer has the battery. Therefore, we cannot sell you the battery. What we can do is provide you with the part numbers so you can source it elsewhere. If you're considering sourcing the battery for the Darter Pro 5 from another supplier, please note that the model number for the battery is N150BAT-4, and the original part number is 6-87-N15ZS-51E01. Third-party battery sellers may display one or both of these numbers and might also list other compatible part numbers that are suitable for the same model.
It's actually a Darter Pro 6, but the battery part number is correct in that text.
You can not purchase this battery, it no longer exists. There are a few sketchy websites which say that they sell it, but they will cancel your order a few days after placing it and tell you that there is "lack of material".
I use laptops since the 90‘. I only ever wanted to get a new battery. Everthing else never had anybsignificant problem, or started to have problems when the machine was already obsolete (5 to 10 years). While I like the Frameworks, I personally don’t see lots of advantages in terms of reparability, ovly eventually in making one with exactly what I need and no more. But then they are a little pricey.
Had to replace the NVME SSD in my Thinkpad a few years after it went out of warranty (that Thinkpad has a motherboard replacement on warranty as well). Needed to replace the fan in an older Thinkpad after 9 years.
Unfortunately the quality of Thinkpads went downhill after Lenovo took over, they used to be really good. But there is nothing else with trackpoints these days, which I vastly prefer over touchpads. (And even on some old Dells that had trackpoints, they never felt as good as on Thinkpads.) Also, Linux support was always very good, though that is less of an issue these days.
Never had to replace a battery though, but I always used that "don't charge more than 80%" mode. My old Thinkpad with a Core 2 Duo from 2009 still gets over a hour of battery (though the laptop is largely unusable for any practical use these days).
I don't mind repairing electronics in general, even on a component level if need be (as long as the components are large enough that I can see them, which really isn't the case any longer with tiny SMD components). And I tend to use things for a very long time rather than replace them. I'm still rocking a Dell monitor from 2013 for example.
I've also had laptops since the 90s, but my experience is the opposite. I've upgraded something in most of them. Almost all of them got RAM and storage upgrades. One got a mostly-compatible motherboard upgrade that required grinding down a couple bits on the frame to make it fit, and I got to have a 4:3 IPS display for a bit longer.
I love the idea of the Framework. I don't love the lack of a trackpoint, or the pricing. I'm willing to forgive the latter since it's a small company with a mission I appreciate. There's likely a Framework 16 in my future eventually.
If you keep them at about 50% and avoid temperature extremes, it doesn't take a PhD in electrochemistry. The thing is, fancy battery packs usually do contain active electronics that drain the cells slowly in storage, so it's necessary to charge them a little a couple times a year.
Yes, good idea. I do have a large freezer. Vacuum seal it, charge to 60% one time per year. Adjust charge interval to whatever remains after 12 months. It has to stay above 30%.
That'll probably be the last time that happens since a lot of places are starting to require parts be made available for some years after the last sale of the device.
I noticed that the battery properties (voltage, etc) were uncommon, as I considered other batteries that would physically fit within the available space.
At the end of the day it's probably worth replacing it with something that probably won't burn my house down.
I almost pulled the trigger on a mini PC over the summer, but said "the laptop still works, you don't really need this" and now it would be 30 or 40% more because of ddr5 and NVMe cost spikes.
A lot of System76 laptops are essentially rebadged versions of Chinese or Taiwanese ODMs. You might have some luck trying to research what model the ODM produces the laptop as and find replacement batteries for that instead of focusing on finding System76 branded batteries.
I had no idea about this. I don't see how anybody who is buying one of these because of the repair-ability would complete the purchase if they knew this. I also don't see how they can make all of their user-friendly claims if this is the case.
I'm running my lemur pro with no battery (on a UPS) now too. My first battery ballooned and then I got a second aftermarket one and it balooned too -- Yikes!
Depending on the model you might be able to find it online. My system 76 had a “Clevo” ID on the bottom sticker ( the company that manufactures the computers) I used to buy a replacement fan.
It’s too bad there isn’t standard cells anymore. I did notice my Bluetooth speaker (which had replacement batteries available) also had instruction videos floating around on buying replacement cells and rebuilding the battery pack.
Laptop packs I don’t think are typically made of replacable cells.
One of the white Macbooks used 50 screws to fasten the keyboard. Once I spilled some juice on it and had to replace it.
Took forever, but at least back then it was not too expensive or difficult.
Could have been worse: I replaced a keyboard for a friends daughter and her Dell had ~50 plastic studs holding the keyboard in place, each one was melted rivet-style. I had to remove enough that I could get the keyboard out, but not so much that there wasn't still plastic to melt to hold the new keyboard in place.
It depends on vendor really - I have Lenovo T480 and I replaced keyboard earlier this year (there are various options like w/ or w/o backlit + layout (I'm Czech), I have 2 batteries - one for "normal" use and extended one (in size and capacity) for traveling, changing multiple SSDs and RAM is possible (not soldered)... it's not framework, but easily fixable and Linux friendly HW.
T480 is indeed superb (except for being on the heavy side). I accidentally hurled my phone into the screen (both were on the bed and I shook the sheets trying to find the beeping phone). The replacement screen was like $75 and a 5 minute job. On MacBooks that’s typically closer to $600.
I’ll probably replace it eventually with a t14 which is pretty light these days.
the T series thinkpads tend to have a high repairability rating (9/10 on ifixit ) and easy affordable access to parts, it's the X series that's a PITA imo
Is there any generally agreed upon and reliable source for replacement batteries? Given the fire risk, I'm much less willing to take the risk of substandard aftermarket parts when it comes to batteries.
Lenovo stopped selling the batteries for the T480, so the only sources are various 3rd party manufacturers I've never heard of.
++on older Lenovo. Something that Framework might have after many years is a viable secondary and third party market for repair components. Lenovo has also done a great job with keeping their detailed service manuals online and available.
I don't know about you, but every laptop I've had suffered some sort of malfunction sooner or later and I never bothered to have them serviced because it was too much of a hassle - especially seeing how a friend of mine outright battled Lenovo support over mundane things like a failing keyboard despite everything being still in warranty.
Specific issues by laptop:
1. Pressure marks on screen, failing USB ports, cracked hinge after three years.
2. Pressure marks on screen, failed battery, failing power supply socket after seven years.
3. Warped reflective layer in screen, rattling fans, overheating despite fan replacement (which I did at home and it took three hours) after five years.
I also broke the butterfly keyboard on a 2019 MBP I was using at work.
With the Framework I can address each and every one of the mentioned problems myself - just need to order parts and spend half an hour or so per item.
Guess my normal usage is more destructive than your trips. The main driver of wear in my case was always commuting with the device and thus also plugging/unplugging things several times a day.
Also if you hold a 2kg closed laptop with one hand - you're going to have pressure marks and I learned that the hard way.
Anyway, all around me people have always had hardware issues - also with Apple products. I recall replacing the battery in a late 2011 MBP because it was swollen as it failed from age alone.
Bottom line is that I believe you, I just think you're an outlier.
Similar here. When I trade in my old MacBooks after 4-6 years of use they function like new and look almost new, and I do plenty of moderate-heavy dev work and traveling.
I have a nearly 5 year old ThinkPad that's in great condition too. Never needed a repair, though it's had a couple of spells where it acted funky that resolved themselves.
In Australia, all of these things would be returned for a full refund under Australia Consumer Law as a major fault, there is no time limit, just expectations of a reasonable consumer.
Would really have to come down what a reasonable consumer would expect; that is part subjective and part objective. If you could show an experience of having laptops for various lifetimes, some extending beyond 7 years some below, none having a failing power socket, that might be sufficient to convince that it is a major fault. If it is a cheap laptop maybe you don't have a chance, but a premium product you could argue that it failed to be durable.
(I read this as the power socket in the laptop, not so much the power supply, obviously you'll have less luck there.)
The idea is that repairability and reliability are sometimes at odds.
I owned a number of 90s trucks and though it was easier to get into the engine, I had to do it well before 100k miles sometimes. Meanwhile I have a 2010s Japanese vehicle that is at 200k with only an alternator replaced.
Similarly there's now a few models of EV known to make it well past the 100k mark while needing little to no maintenance aside from replacing consumables. Most people aren't knowledgeable or well-equipped enough to work on those, though.
True technically, but there's many people that almost enjoy working on their cars IF they are pleasant to work on. And some are. At that point the car is just an avenue for your hobby of working on cars.
My parents have a Lexus RX400H (hybrid), that even for me as a car guy is a nightmare to work on. It's technically never had a fault since 2007 with 215k miles. But changing the spark plugs was probably the third hardest thing I've done with cars, only behind dropping a transmission and doing a head gasket job on other cars.
I had a Framework mainboard die and I was able to replace it myself with a free replacement they sent me without need to throw away the laptop. The economics make sense when you consider they don't get the priority for chips or the volume discounts that a company like Dell would get from AMD or Intel. They are getting scraps and doing what they can to make it work.
Is that a viable business model though? That they’ll always be a niche supplier with low-vokume issues, seems like a tough market.
In fact, I think Dell or HP or Other could demolish Framework in a 1/2 second by offering a line that was even 50% the offering. By focusing on replaceable screens, keyboard, and standing the chassis for multiple boards and selling some parts they dry up FW’s moat with little effort.
That would be an AWESOME market development. Not great for framework but if they end up folding because larger manufacturers adopt most sustainable/interchangeable practices thats a win and I'm happy my framework purchase help prove/promote that market change.
The same companies that can’t make a proper website to sell their products? Please. Framework’s got it in the bag.
I don’t remember the number of times I typed dell.com or Lenovo.com, looked for a replacement for my 10-year old XPS, and came out extremely frustrated with the experience. Not to mention the recent copy-paste nonsense from Dell with their Pro/Pro Max laptop offerings.
Good display, decent CPU, a battery that lasts a day, and Linux support - that’s all that I ask for. Outside of Apple(bar Linux support) are there any manufacturers that offer that?
That last sentence is just not true. Have an end user easily order and replace a MacBook Air keyboard, or easily upgrade their MacBook screen direct from the website.
Yep, did the same thing too. It's nice that you just need one tool to unscrew, screw things and everything is labelled well that you don't need to go dig to multiple websites on how to do repair/replace parts.
But of all things, replacing keyboard was the most tedious one in framework with so many screws, haha.
Just broke my control key. They're sending me a new keyboard (well the whole cover as chznging the keyboard is hard) as part of the EU garantee.
Awesome. My last laptop had the same problem but the repair employee broke the whole computer when he came to replace the keyboard. Dell then did not want to accept their fault.
I replaced the keyboard in my 5 year old Dell laptop without difficulty. The battery as well (at the same time). It was an instant way to make it run and feel like new
You can swap out the motherboard, so yeah. Not sure how long they support specific Laptop bodies (or frames) for but I would imagine some of their frames are good for a long minute.
Probably because they include the CPU if I am not mistaken, but probably makes sense and is worth the hassle if your concern is your CPU / main hardware is falling behind.
You're excited about the prospect of repairing a manufacturer's faulty engineering at your own cost?
An analogy would be buying a new car then bragging to your friends that despite it being a lemon, you're thrilled because you can repair it yourself (at cost).
You’re missing the common alternative in the modern age which is the manufacturer not selling the part at all and being left with a pile of unrepairable junk despite an otherwise functioning device.
Laptop hinges were notorious for killing laptops for like a decade.
"Lemon" was never mentioned. That's extreme. I don't care what make and model of car you choose, I'll show you a list of TSBs associated with that model. There's never been a car produced that was perfectly engineered and had no after-sale issues common to that model and year. There's always something.
Yes, I would be thrilled to find a car that gave cheap and available replacement parts so I could remedy those issues later. That used to be the standard! The trend now is for automakers to keep juicing the proprietary software tools and one-off components, making repairability harder for the owner.
So, to rephrase your analogy: "[That's like] buying a new car then bragging to your friends ... that you're thrilled because you can repair it yourself (at cost)."
I replaced my last laptop after 10+ years because the battery gave out, the end-of-life hardware was so old it no longer got OS upgrades, and eventually apps stopped working. I like the idea of getting to easily throw new hardware at my machine to keep it going.
(I also tired of Apple shoving bad experiences down my throat (TouchBar, Butterfly keyboards, thin glass screens that crack, USB-C and no USB-A...) so I spec'ed out my Framework with USB-C and USB-A.)
But aside from repairability when stuff breaks, a laptop's hardware slowly becomes obsolete because software is usually written for the new stuff. If you're like me and you keep your laptop for 10 years, that means: in year 1 you have 1 year old hardware, in year 6 you have 6 year old hardware, etc. So your laptop gets worse and worse performance because you can't incrementally upgrade your hardware... you only upgrade in a big bang every 10 years when you buy a new one. Towards the end of its life, you're really struggling to keep the thing above water.
With a Framework, in theory I can upgrade the hardware incrementally over time rather than needing a big bang every 10 years. So instead of having 6 year old hardware at year 6, I'll probably have 2 year old hardware again. So I'll more closely match the industry improvements curve.
Will this work in reality? Will it be expensive to replace all the parts, and will the case be able to cool new CPUs, and will I have to get a new mainboard, etc? Who knows. But I thought it was interesting enough to take a gamble on the laptop. And worst case, it's not a fatal decision... I can just go back to MacBooks...
Replacing a CPU means replacing a motherboard - this is mostly true for desktops too. And by the time you’re ready for a new CPU there is almost certainly a new type of RAM to get.
Understood - a new mainboard on the Framework website is around $700, which I still prefer to a new laptop.
I'd be willing to pay more over time to have better hardware over my laptop's life. Meaning, I'd rather pay ~$3200 over 10 years for a Framework + 2 mainboard upgrades + a RAM upgrade vs ~$2000 for a laptop that slowly gets worse over the same time period.
At least with desktop you sometimes get a CPU upgrade path.
For example, with Socket 939, I started with an Athlon 64 3000+, and upgraded later to an X2 4200+.
With Socket AM4, I skipped the first generation, got a Ryzen 2700X, then skipped the next generation, and then got a Ryzen 5900X! (But a solid 4 generations on the same socket!)
The problem is that the Framework starts so far behind in performance and battery efficiency of a cheaper Macbook that you aren’t saving money on perf upgrades.
You really do have to buy it for the idea rather than the reality.
I don't love this comparison, because I have to use Linux, not Mac. It's not really optional for me, and Asahi simply isn't far enough along to fill the gap.
As a result, the question is more Framework vs. Dell or Lenovo, and that creates a much smaller gap in capability in the 13" form factor.
Side complaint: I'm irked that the smaller surface laptop didn't continue with custom AMD chips since they were getting quite powerful in the last one.
Other complaint is that because of comments here I went looking at framework but it doesn't show what GPU comes with AMD processors so I'm going to have to not look at this on mobile.
I have a Thinkpad, Asus and surface 13" amd and none have fully scratched the itch for my go to machine. Asus is powerful enough but the build quality and durability are pure garbage.
Where is Asahi not far enough if I may ask? I've been daily driving it for 2 years by this point.
While it was not really useable for mainstream usecases in the beginning (no speakers, no webcam, other random issues), it did get better month by month and problems got resolved, I find useability equal to my x86 laptops now.
Find me a new MacBook Air that’s $1000 for 2TB of storage + 32GB of RAM, because that’s what I paid for my Framework 13 brand new (before RAM insanity, but this would still only cost about $1200 today).
A $50 battery pack solved the battery efficiency problem.
So for a little extra weight (external battery + FW13 weighs the same as a MB Pro 14”) I get a lot more actual capability in places that matters than a base MacBook Air.
I’ve got two more USB-C/Thunderbolt ports than the Air on both sides of the system with the option to swap them for any I/O I want.
And I’m not stuck with macOS arbitrarily dropping support for my non-upgradable all-soldered hardware every 10 years.
(I also couldn’t really find a similar Lenovo at anything close to that price/spec with the kind of requirements I have - good keyboard with low flex, nice to haves like the 3:2 aspect ratio, generally a programmer-oriented laptop with good. My second choice might be a Lenovo ThinkPad X9 15 Aura Edition. The T14 series has unacceptable deck flex. Even value systems like the IdeaPad 5i 16 cost more. I could see myself enjoying a Zenbook like the Zenbook Duo but again it costs more).
There is a gulf between the two and that’s what is sacrificed on the FW13. I m not saying someone can’t decide to prioritize modularity, storage, and repairability over performance, but there is a ‘price’ to making that choice.
The MBA has about a 20% better score on the single thread perf benchmark. It's better, but is it that significant ?
Especially as it has no active cooling. By the time thermal throttling kicks in the FW13 will keep chugging along. The MBP solves that issue, albeit at significantly higher price range.
Then again, the amount of RAM the FW13 can take will also help in many cases.
Right, I was going to bring up real world over geekbench.
For example, in the real world, you’ve gotta run most PC games using CrossOver on Mac with significant performance implications or have them not work at all, where modern Linux/x86 is nearly fully PC game compatible, and the AMD integrated graphics are much more game-optimized than Apple’s.
The arbitrary spec limits on Apple systems also get in your way. Want 4TB of storage? Want more than 32GB of RAM? You have to upgrade to a MacBook Pro even if you don’t want all the other features and expense of the Pro model.
Is all you want a USB-C port on the right side or an SD card reader? Pony up the extra $600 for the 14” MacBook Pro.
A Dodge Neon SRT4 is faster than a lot of BMWs but it doesn’t make it a better car to live with.
This is Apple’s price anchor in action. The base price is essentially not the real price. Anyone who can use the capability of their chips to their fullest will need more RAM and storage. Even casual users will find 256GB tight sometimes. Goodbye, “Optimize storage.”
In practical use, there really isn’t anything my system can’t do that a MacBook Air can besides battery stamina. Since moving to Linux/x86 gaming has become way easier (goodbye CrossOver). Programming and containerization is way better on Linux, and I finally have the RAM for it.
I acknowledge Apple’s lead in their chips but that’s only one component of the experience, and it’s not so far ahead that it’s a major detriment to choose something else.
There are all sorts of other things that don't show up on a spec sheet so easily that Framework isn't competitive on.
It has a diving board trackpad, significantly worse speakers, no zonal dimming on the display (comparing to MacBook Pro, which higher end specs of the Framework cost as much as), general poor body rigidity, an aggressive fan curve that ramps up audibly on short loads (the Air doesn't even have a fan and the Pro can handle a couple mins of all-core 100% load without becoming audible), etc etc.
As much as I dislike Apple's business practices it's undeniable that other vendors are generally selling significantly cheaper feeling devices at the same price point. These are not niche things, you feel the cheapness on the Framework with every touchpad click, short bursty CPU task, HDR video, audio playback, heck even picking it up off the desk.
Trackpad isn’t as good, true. But it’s not a bad trackpad, either, and I would counter that other operating systems that aren’t macOS support external normal mice a lot better. On macOS I needed to install a separate paid program (Smooze Pro) to make the scroll wheel of an external mouse normal for gaming or other purposes. I would be very interested to try the haptic trackpad on the Lenovo ThinkPad X9 15 Aura Edition.
macOS assumes you’re using a trackpad to a fault, to the point where I prefer a trackpad on macOS desktop systems. That’s an operating system choice that a conspiracy theorist might tell you is Apple’s way of artificially differentiating their patent-protected trackpad hardware products. If Apple just used a normal mouse and designed the OS around it like everyone else they couldn’t sell you the advantage of their fancy trackpad, since we all know a dedicated mouse is more precise and quick, so that situation is yet another crazy expensive vendor lock-in accessory along with the Touch ID keyboard. Over $300 if you buy both for your desk setup!
Also remember that this is a laptop for programming…how often am I using my mouse?
Worse speakers, this is true, though it’s improved by installing Easy Effects and running a Framework profile. I use my AirPods Pro 3 on the Framework and they work great with it. MacBook speakers sound really good but they are still laptop speakers.
I don’t agree that the Framework body rigidity is poor. Do you own one or are you just assuming it’s poor? It’s very comparable to a MacBook, the screen has slightly more flex but the keyboard deck and core system is almost identically rigid.
Zonal dimming is only available on the MacBook Pro models that cost $600 more than my Framework, which doesn’t include the cost of upgrading them to equivalent 2TB/32GB configuration. So realistically, for my needs I would have had to spend double to get zonal dimming, which doesn’t benefit my programming work at all, though it would presumably benefit gaming. But gaming is my secondary use case.
Also, if Framework ever makes a micro-LED screen in the future, I’ll be able to replace it for a very reasonable cost. They have already released a display upgrade and surely will upgrade it again in the future as more panels become available.
You can customize the fan curve of a Framework! But the fan noise was never a consideration of mine. I’m not an audio producer.
You’re saying I’m constantly burdened by this computer but you’re not really considering how I’m using the laptop. I don’t care much for HDR content and barely watch television, fan noise hasn’t been an issue, this laptop is almost a full pound less heavy than my previous 14” MacBook Pro and almost identical in weight to a MacBook Air, so I don’t understand how picking it up is a worse experience.
You didn’t even mention the weak webcam on the Framework! It sucks! But I don’t use it, just like I didn’t use my MacBook webcam. I’m a programmer remember? I don’t go on camera. That’s for sales bros. FaceTime on iPhone is better than the MacBook anyway.
> Also remember that this is a laptop for programming…how often am I using my mouse?
All the time?
Some of us have embraced IDE and graphical tooling in desktop systems since the 1990, after computers with desktop environments became affordable and we weren't stuck with text only interfaces.
I use a graphical IDE. That still means my hands are on the keyboard 90% of the time. Graphical IDEs still use a lot of keyboard shortcuts.
And like I said, the trackpad isn’t bad, it’s just not the world’s best trackpad.
To reiterate further, macOS demands you use the trackpad for gestures that aren’t demanded in other operating systems. They want you to buy their $150 trackpad even though you’re sitting at a desk and could easily use a $20-50 third party mouse.
I also am a programmer, and I care about all of these things on my laptop. I used my trackpad to click reply on this webpage, that's not a rare thing!
If you ever have a meeting where multiple people huddle around a laptop, that uses speakers, webcam, and microphone, and the MacBook does so much better in that scenario. We have interrupted meetings to swap from a Framework 16 (old CTO's laptop) to my MacBook Pro because participants simply couldn't hear those of us slightly further away from the laptop!
Zonal dimming is an advantage whenever you have black areas on the screen, and good fan tuning is an advantage if you want to compile some changes during a meeting without thinking "this task will turn my laptop into a jet engine and distract everyone else".
If you don't care about these things, then you can find way cheaper devices than the Framework that are cost competitive on core specs. Let's get some Framework pricing as a datum, Framework will sell me the AI 350 and 2.8K display for $1939CAD, it has no RAM, no SSD, no charger, no ports... if I add 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD, charger, and 2xUSB-C, 1xHDMI, 1xUSB-A, we're looking at $2403CAD.
If I don't care about the less measurable components, why would I not buy something like this $400USD (~$550CAD) laptop [1] another poster in this thread found which also has an AI 350, 16GB RAM, and a 512GB SSD? I can buy four of these laptops for the price of the Framework and still have some cash left over! If I need more RAM I'm sure I can find a similarly cheapo laptop with a SODIMM by actually googling myself.
I think the reality is both you and I do care about these other parts, just maybe with a different minimum acceptable quality. But even inside PC land Framework is not competitive. Higher-end X1 Carbons have haptic trackpads at the same price point as Framework is offering diving boards. Across the market there are OLEDs for less money than Framework is charging for LCDs.
Personally, I don't care about trackpad alone so much, merely that the pointing device situation be acceptable. When programming, I type a lot and then do a few small mouse actions (e.g. expand some segment on a docs webpage, or mouse around some GUI to test the feature I have been building out). With a haptic trackpad, I can move my thumb from the spacebar to the top of the trackpad which is just below it and do my mouse actions without significant hand movement. This is not possible with a diving board design as the top of the trackpad is not clickable. A pointing stick is absolutely an acceptable solution to this problem, but Framework also does not offer those, again despite price-competitive offerings from, say, Lenovo offering it.
Let's briefly look at Lenovo's website. I can spec out a ThinkPad P14s Gen 6 here in Canada from Lenovo's website [2] with a 120Hz OLED screen, trackpoint, Ryzen AI 350, 1x16GB SODIMM and 512GB NVMe for $1529CAD, that's a fully working computer for less than the barebones Framework, with a better display and pointing device situation! I can use the empty second SODIMM port with a single 48GB stick and get 64GB, and stick the NVMe in an external enclosure to use as an external SSD, and deck it out with whatever market-rate drive and RAM I can get.
The Framework is broadly uncompetitive even if you won't consider a MacBook.
Like I said, Framework 13 trackpad isn’t bad, it’s just not the best in the world. It’s not any worse than the traditional trackpads that are on Lenovo systems (but I’d love to try the haptic one on the X9 Aura Edition).
This $2400 CAD price point is pure fantasy to me because that’s not what I paid. I paid $800 for a DIY system then about $200 or $300 for RAM and storage (USD).
The ThinkPad P14 you specced out is not significantly more competitive. I’ll use my US website prices to compare. The base model starts at $1044. It comes with a Ryzen AI 340 which is a far worse chip for integrated graphics than my 7640u, it’s like 60% of the speed of the 7640u graphics. The display in that model is the base model display, not a 120Hz OLED, similar specs to the Framework. You have to add $10 for fingerprint reader then I have to still buy a new stick of RAM and a bigger SSD.
I also tried a Lenovo T14 in store and felt like it had way too much deck flex. I had no idea if the P series is the same but Lenovo felt plasticky. Framework is an aluminum chassis and the keyboard deck flex is about as good as it gets before you sign your life away to Apple.
The $500 cheapo spec laptops aren’t as nice as the Framework! I swear FW haters just insist that the hardware quality is budget tier and it must suck since it’s modular and that it’s not a premium-class system. But that is just not true. The Lenovo T14 felt cheap in comparison. If I get a $500 cheapo laptop I’m getting even more plastic and flex.
The ThinkPad T14 keyboard was not good enough for me. The Framework 13 has better keyboard. I like it better than my previous MacBook Pro! A $500 cheapo laptop isn’t going to satisfy me there.
In terms of Linux support, Framework is premium. The company itself focuses on it more than Lenovo. Hardware firmware gets updated automatically within Linux, and there’s a dedicated community surrounding it, which you won’t get on some random $500 HP laptop.
Maybe Lenovo offers an equivalent value or sometimes even a better value when there’s a sale. For my needs Apple couldn’t even get close to the kind of price I paid for what I got.
One more sidenote, you brought up buying the power supply separate, which I didn’t have to do because I already own an Anker Prime charger that I’ve used with my previous MacBook for being a superior travel solution compared to OEM. My monitor on my desk already provides USB-C PD. So really, if I buy a laptop that includes one it’s just e-waste that I don’t need.
> Framework starts so far behind in performance ...
Honest question and not meant to flame anyone. What benchmark are you referring to regarding performance; spec sheets or your tools are not working correctly or working slowly?
Just trying to understand users needs in upgrading. I have some new MacBooks and some old linux laptops. They both equally work just fine for what I need to do, and I am starting to question the need for me to update to a new MacBook M* chipset moving forward.
It's more a matter of effiency and battery life, and that's mostly due to Linux more than inherent to the Framework or its hardware (try running Asahi Linux on an M MacBook and just notice your battery life be cut in half).
I love my M1 Pro MacBook and I wish I could have the same efficiency when running Linux but I can't.
My Framework runs faster, but a lot hotter, louder and with a lot less battery life. But I feel like I'm supporting a good company, a good cause, and I love that I can do software updates without fearing that it fucked everything up like every major macOS release does.
> I love my M1 Pro MacBook and I wish I could have the same efficiency when running Linux but I can't.
No doubt. And don't forget Apple nailed the trackpad experience too. But I seldom need to use my laptop for 20 hours away from an A/C outlet. It's nice, but not necessary for me.
With that being said, I personally am going to start abandoning the Apple ecosystem with each device that NEEDS to be replaced. I'm tired of features being forced into each software cycle, and I don't want any AI on my devices.
I'm going to lean into Framework (or keep my old T480 alive) and GrapheneOS when needed.
I have Home Assistant running on an old Raspberry Pi and it is fabulous. Way quicker than HomeKit, and easier to tinker with, along with all kinds of integrations.
That's a bit interesting, because IME linux on my framework 13 (7840u, 61wh battery) is surprisingly very solid. Fans almost never spin up (even with a windows KVM plus lot of firefox tabs), and I can get 6-8 hours easy, and 10+ hours of battery life if I push it (without even using power saving mode), on native linux (Fedora 40).
Windows 10 in comparison gives maybe 4-5 hours of battery plus lots of fan usage (but lesser ram usage often).
We bought all of ours for the idea of not being glued to the Apple ecosystem, and that reality has provided the performance our group requires. Each unit is the top of the line i7 and they last all day - any further requirements for even faster processing is handled by the server farm upstream. Supposedly Apple knows best about performance and longetivity by enforcing clamshell mode for users that want to use only an externally connected display.
> You really do have to buy it for the idea rather than the reality.
There is enormous historical irony in this comment. The Apple Distortion Field was an observable delusion for decades before Apple's ARM silicon.
That said, CPU performance is just one criterion in choosing a laptop, and Framework's modularity is a greater idea than anything Apple has ever done for re-use.
Will this work in reality? Will it be expensive to replace all the parts, and will the case be able to cool new CPUs, and will I have to get a new mainboard, etc?
When a $39 hinge kit costs $70 after shipping, it sounds unlikely I'll be buying replacement parts from Framework, and there's really no 3rd party marketplace either.
Current items in my possession that are still in use and use USB-A
* keyboard
* mouse dongle
* webcam
* microphone
* mouse charging cable
* smart watch charging cable
* SATA hard drive dock
* 32GB and 64GB USB memory sticks
Things that use USB-C
* new SD card reader
* new headphones dongle
* smart phone charging cable
Some of the above could maybe be replaced with a USB-C equivalent, but they are still working and I'm still using them. Why waste money and create waste replacing them?
It's funny. I think a lot of more software-y people just don't see the need for a lot of Framework features. I deal with a lot of hardware (as a hobbyist and a hardware engineer) and I've seen every USB standard connector in the last week.
I also own something like three different Framework products (16, 13 and Desktop) and gifted two more (13 and Desktop) to people. Really, apart from the fit issues on 16 spacers and perhaps the speakers, the only really unforgivable issue is the size of the expansion cards (too small for interesting hardware like a good LTE modem).
Software-y people also have a way of being deliberately and performatively obtuse about their technology choices. This person's proclamation about not using any USB-A peripherals hits the same as when they feign surprise that any non-luddite would still have a use for printers, scanners, and fax machines.
Perhaps because Framework users are a bit more geeky and are more likely to use older hardware that still has USB-A?
USB-A is like what DB9 was. Easy to use, easy to plug-in, used on most devices. But there comes a point in time where we move on to the next connector, which is USB-C.
Most of my hardware is younger than ten years and everything has USB-C. I had a night light with micro-USB still but that was one of the last devices with a legacy port.
I have a stash of USB keyboards and mice in my closet, gathered from various sources for free. They're all USB-A because they're like 15 years old. The SD card reader I got somewhere ages ago is USB-A. My Xbox 360 controller is USB-A. So I got a USB-A module. Shrug.
Hi it's me from the past. I daily drive a VGA screen and a USB-A hub that connects my USB-A mouse and USB-A keyboard. My µSD-card reader uses USB-A. Ethernet adapter (for when I need a second NIC) is also USB-A but it came with an adapter to C so I have a choice there. All USB sticks I've ever seen are A, as well as all external hard drives. My charging cables are predominantly USB-A to micro, and nowadays I also need C for my phone. It's a bit annoying to need that extra C charging cable everywhere after we had already standardized on micro (except for Apple), but at least there's one standard now (xkcd.com/927) after the current devices die
Edit: forgot the printer. I connect it via USB-A on demand. /edit.
My laptop (bought this year) charges via a DC barrel jack, afaik because USB-C doesn't deliver enough power for peak usage. Buying a little HDMI-VGA converter was a lot cheaper than throwing a perfectly good screen away. My keyboard, mouse, and other peripherals also simply still work, seems silly to replace them just to get a C variant when 700-1300€ laptops have 1 or 2 C ports and always 2 A ports (I happen to be up-to-date on that, at least, because I helped someone select a new laptop ereyesterday)
I don't know what I'd need more than one C port for but I'm very happy that there is more than one A port on my laptop. Add in the standard set of 3.5mm jack, HDMI, ethernet, card reader, and charging, and you're already at more ports than even the new Framework 16 can physically fit in its frame, let alone nerd ports like serial or a second ethernet port. I considered buying a double-priced Framework earlier this year for the linux support and upgradeability (I really support their goal and would pay that premium if it were a suitable system) but this is one of the main reasons it just doesn't work for me: I'm actually a power user that regularly uses these connections and more
> My laptop (bought this year) charges via a DC barrel jack, afaik because USB-C doesn't deliver enough power for peak usage
I've got a Dell 120W USB-C charger from a 2017 Dell laptop, and I think you can go up to 240W now.
Now the highest power is a bit of a compatibility nightmare. I also have a 60W framework charger but it will only charge the Dell at 15W because that's the maximum mode that both the Dell and Framework charger support in common.
But given the barrel connectors are usually only compatible with the exact laptop they're sold with, that's probably an improvement.
I got a couple of type-A cards for my AMD FW13 and generally keep one loaded in the laptop for connecting to random junk like flash drives, charging cables for all sorts of widgets (like my bike light or head lamp), etc. I get dramatically more use out of the type-C cards. And in the quite-rare cases where I really need all of the type-C ports, I'll just eject the type-A card and plug directly into the chassis without the interposer at all rather than carry an extra type-C with me.
That said, there have been a few things that have been a bit less than deluxe on my FW13:
- The touchpad mechanical click is just not that good. It is too sensitive to exact pressure and touch location and I find holding it down and dragging to be excessively difficult compared to all other touchpads I've ever used.
- The delete key seems to oxidize and needs a bunch of hard mashing to get it to become responsive. No, it's not sticky or dirty.
- The air intake on the bottom is highly prone to getting blocked, mostly by my legs.
- There's no BIOS option to turn down the brightness or disable altogether the charging status LEDs, and I find that when I travel and can't keep the laptop in a separate room that it's bright enough to interrupt sleep. I've taped over them, but the light leakage from other crevices is still sufficient to be at least mildly annoying. The translucent Ethernet adapter card also acts like a lightbulb.
- The laptop ramps its current consumption from type-C very quickly and seems like it overshoots its target a little bit, and so it is the only device I have that trips out the OCP on some of my bricks.
- There's no BIOS option to artificially limit the charging power, and so I often trip the OCP on aircraft if my battery is not fully charged before plugging in. I don't want to carry a secondary small brick just to use on planes.
- The LCD backlight uniformity and color quality are mediocre, but for my use case I just don't really care that much. For me, this is a portable technical productivity machine and not an art studio, so it doesn't matter.
- The LCD backlight intensity curve is pretty bad. I very-frequently want to have a brightness in-between the lowest and second-lowest settings. I would love to get more control at the bottom and less at the top. It feels like it's linear when it should be logarithmic.
- The speakers suck. So does the volume control. I very rarely go above 10% volume and frequently don't have sufficient control resolution at the bottom. Anything above about 14-16% volume causes something to distort and other stuff to rattle. Luckily I mostly don't consume media, so this is rarely a real problem. But it is truly atrocious.
All that said, I'm generally a pretty happy camper. I look forward to continued improvements from the company over the years.
Could you reach out to support about the delete key? There was a small window of time where a burr on a batch of Input Cover lattices resulted in wearing down the keyboard membrane in that spot: https://support.frame.work
Thanks for the feedback on LED brightness and airplane OCP. That should be something we can improve in firmware.
Thanks, I'll do that! I figured I've had the machine for a while and it was unlikely to be covered by warranty, so I didn't consider reaching out to support. Instead I assumed I'd buy a new keyboard if it ever annoyed me too much.
At some point I actually considered poking around the firmware and seeing about fixing up the PD behavior. But it never quite rose in priority above my many other projects.
I absolutely love that the embedded controller firmware and much of the motherboard schematics are available. It makes it possible to do these little projects should I gather the gumption. That, plus easy and reasonably priced replacement parts availability and easy OS compatibility, are why I got the Framework.
The actual touch part of the FW touchpad, including tap to click, works just fine. I might be a weirdo for liking mechanical click for dragging (and I dislike the Macbook tactile fakery; it does not fool my finger).
Even limiting discussion to "routine consumer use": Mouse and keyboard dongles, USB sticks for copying things off the scanner or 3D printer or whatever. Joysticks and game controllers still live in drawers and come out every once in a while. These things are still Just Not Made in USB-C except in a handful of weird devices.
And even then, I'm not re-buying junk that works. I just swapped for a webcam that has a C cable, and ironically it's being used with an adapter because the integrated hub on the KVM switch is A-only.
Also dev tasks like flashing bootable ChromeOS and linux images pretty regularly, connecting to a Flyswatter JTAG adapter, UART adapters, etc...
USB-A was actually a really great plug and objectively works better for a lot of applications than the tiny C connector.
I assume you are talking about legacy devices? I haven't purchased a keyboard in the past ten years with USB-A. Everything is USB-C for charging/data and Bluetooth.
Wow. A device in 2025 with a non-detachable USB-A cable? That sounds like a horrible design decision from both a repairability and future-proofing standpoint. My keyboard has a USB-C port on the side so you can plug in whatever cable you want, A or C, long, short, curled, braided. It even connects to my phone without dongles.
Bluetooth is too flaky for such critical inputs. Dongles will usually bring higer polling, less interference/2.4Ghz connectivity and lower load on the host system. Sadly most are USB-A plugs.
Bluetooth being cnstantly used for audio and so many other things as well might also be at play ?
Isn't that more due to the Bluetooth hardware used and implementation on the OS side? On macOS I never had flakyness with Bluetooth keyboards but on Windows my experience was significantly worse.
It might as well be, though Bluetooth is kinda hit or miss in general IMHO.
On Macos, first party peripherals have of course pretty good connectivity (is it even straight Bluetooth?) but it's not perfect either, and third party ones have a tougher time.
I still do have a few USB-A: Yubikey, mouse receiver, Streamdeck, USB sticks, webcam, old HDD hard drives I use for backups...
I guess I could, but I would rather not upgrade all of those to USB-C and I really tired of having to carry dongles everywhere.
I even like that if I were consistently using HDMI, I could actually just put an HDMI extension card into my laptop and still not need a dongle. It's customizable to my usage at any point in the laptop's life.
I don't care about the upgradeability or repairability. I think that people espousing these points need a reality check - other laptops aren't that bad for repairability (I have always had Alienwares, and have had no trouble sourcing and installing parts in laptops even 10+ years old), and piecemeal upgrades really don't make sense in the long term. Framework also seems to have attracted a certain type of activist that I won't get into here (they're very opinionated about the company's donations).
I've ordered a Framework 16, though. Not for any of that crap, but just to be able to customise it. That's what I love. They should really lean in to this.
Once the eco and repairability nonsense has faded - and it will, because it's marketing fluff - you still have a laptop that is extremely versatile from a company that doesn't hate you. It's not bloated with spyware by default, the checkout process isn't full of dark patterns, they support and encourage you to use it how you want to use it.
Lean in. Make more modules. Make better modules. Assist the community more with new and varied modules. It's crazy that eGPU and dual USB modules are primarily driven by amateur forum volunteers rather than being major priorities for Framework's engineers. Design a low-profile mechanical keyboard, I don't care for your excuses. Give us proper touchpad options with buttons. Keyboard modules with scroll wheels and panning for CAD.
These are what makes Framework special. In 3 or 4 years it's going to be thrown on the same pile as all of my other old laptops, never to be upgraded or repaired again. I don't care for that. I just want a laptop customised for my needs over that time, rather than fighting against the antagonistic whims of Dell et al.
On repairability, other laptops are mostly fine if you don't need any guarantee or official parts. That's a big ask IMHO.
Especially for the keyboard: 2~3 years of heavy use will have a clear impact, and I'd hate to get a replacement second hand (so already with a limited life span) or from a random vendor I have no idea if it will fry the motherboard.
Otherwise I was surprised by Framework's keyboard supporting QMK. That's the kind of nice things that make them standout IMHO.
I'm also a laptop weirdo and I've had a Framework 13 with the Ryzen 7 motherboard since May of 2022. I run Ubuntu (currently 25.10) on it.
Its a good laptop, but not a great laptop. Its very light and compact (very important to me), and its been reliable, at least since the AMD GPU driver issues were resolved. The matte screen is fine, battery life is adequate, and the CPU meets my needs as a hobby developer.
Overall, I'm happy with it and I expect to use it for many years.
Its biggest issues are the touchpad (it's a diving board design, so you have to always click in the bottom 1/3 of the pad) and the quality of the case. The case flexes slightly if the computer is on an uneven surface, or if you are holding it in one hand by the corner while typing/mousing with your other hand, and this can cause the mechanics of the touchpad to jam. I've trained myself to tap instead of click, but that's me adapting to bad hardware.
I wish the case were more solid, even though I know this would add to the expense, size and weight. I expect to eventually replace every part of this laptop except the case, so I would appreciate more durability.
Is it a 13 or 16? I have a Intel gen 12 framework 13 and it feels solid except the display is a little wobbly. The original display tended to swing in a heavy wind a bit much, but they improved the hinge at some point.
I looked up my purchase using my Framework account to confirm my purchase date, and it lists my mother board as System: Intel® Core™ i7-1260P. Sloppy record keeping like this doesn't inspire confidence.
It is definitely not, and /proc/cpuinfo confirms it:
model name : AMD Ryzen 7 7840U w/ Radeon 780M Graphics
Done! Thanks for coming here to read the tough hacker new comments. I really like what you're doing with Framework, and I hope you are able to keep iterating and improving.
----
Update: Sorry, there is no mistake! The i7 order was my original pre-order, which I canceled. My order is correctly recorded.
was close to getting one, more for worry free linux compat than for repair, but ended up with a mba instead for now mostly because of the touchpad. someday i will have my perfect linux laptop. i saw the framework youtube video where they failed trying to make a new giant haptic touchpad. don't do this just copy the mac. after you copy the mac you can try to improve it maybe.
I work international (somewhat of a digital nomad) so perhaps I’m an outlier in my usage. I have an M1 MacBook Pro that I bought new at release. I can’t replace the memory or storage. But so far I didn’t need to do that.
In case it breaks, I walk to my nearby electronics store and purchase a new MacBook Pro. With Time Machine restore I am up an running within an hour. The M1 goes onto the pile of stuff to repair later. And this is where the international part plays a role, in nearly any city in the western world I can grab a new MacBook Pro within an hour.
My day rate is significant enough that downtime is expensive. Not working for a week waiting for Framework to send parts is not an option for me. I can get next day delivery for memory and an SSD through Amazon in most of Europe but that is still a day rate wasted.
> In case it breaks, I walk to my nearby electronics store and purchase a new MacBook Pro.
> Not working for a week waiting for Framework to send parts is not an option for me.
You are comparing apples and oranges here. Apple is internationally available because it is 40 years old and very successful. There's no reason why Framework cannot be that successful in 10 years time.
Furthermore, when Framework might become that successful, no need to buy a full new laptop, you can just buy the stuff that failed and move on. And if that does happen, then experience with Framework promises to be much better than experience with Macbook.
> There's no reason why Framework cannot be that successful in 10 years time.
They don't have the resources nor is their scope large enough. Could that change in 10 years? Maybe, but probably not. I'm not even sure it's something they would want to replicate. Retail costs a lot of money and the benefits to it are quite limited. Similarly a service network that would be comparable to one of the larger PC manufacturers would also be very expensive.
> Furthermore, when Framework might become that successful, no need to buy a full new laptop, you can just buy the stuff that failed and move on. And if that does happen, then experience with Framework promises to be much better than experience with Macbook.
The experience you're describing is still involving a person opening up their laptop to replace whatever the failed part is, assuming they even know what the failed part is. I'm qualified to do those sort of diagnostics on a computer and depending on what it is, it'd still be more downtime than going to buy/getting a loaner laptop in most cases.
I'm not saying people can't learn that but I know that people won't.
Spares kept on hand with the base image is industry standard IT practice, and it even skips the Apple store. When the day rate is high enough to talk about it, they still have to result to ordering just in time.
Sorry! So many questions. That electronics store won't sell RAM and SSD sticks? Which cities have stores that can sell Macbooks but not RAM & SSD? Like why wait for Amazon next day delivery if your SSD or RAM dies? Why would you wait for Framework to ship parts, unless it's the main board. Even then, wouldn't it be much cheaper to just plug in the SSD into an M.2 slot (of any generic new/old laptop) and rsync your way to productivity in pretty much the same time a Time Machine restore would take?
Not just RAM and SSD. Displays can break. Power ports can break. USB-C ports can break. Keyboards can break. PCBs can break. And those take time to ship if you have a Dell, HP, Framework or even an Apple machine. I like being able to walk to a nearby store and grab a new MacBook Pro in case I quickly need a new machine to continue my work. My clients typically hire me for short periods and they need me to work at full capacity for that time period. Waiting a week while Framework ships me a new display is not an option.
A Time Machine restore has never failed me. You are fully operational after the backup is restored. Syncing your data onto an SSD via M2 isn't comparable.
Your initial comment made it seem like, the repairable options are just so incovenient to the point where buying a new machine was the solution. So my questions were mainly around why that would be the case. But, it seems like your requirements are pretty stringent to the point nothing other than a Time Machine backup compatible machine would make sense.
OP could make it more generic by removing the Time Machine mandate, and instead using any of a raft of cloud-based backup options. (e.g. I use pCloud, and my approach to a new system is equally quick and pain free.)
Then it just comes down to the time delta between buying a new Mac from a shop in a city (assuming you want one of the immediately-available specifications) versus waiting for Framework parts of be delivered. Framework could optimise this if it was worth their while by having a limited number of common replacement items at fast-shipping fulfilment centres.
However, in reality it sounds less like a genuine question, and more like someone justifying their decision to buy a Mac post-hoc with a range of specific requirements only a Mac could meet.
This is why I have a solid desktop and then just RDP into it.
The laptop can then be whatever and if it breaks or gets stolen it's not a big deal. I don't need an expensive laptop and all my stuff is on the desktop so nothing to lose.
Does require a somewhat decent internet connection but nothing special.
The way all of the backup/sync/restore is so dialed in on MacOS/iOS/iPadOS at this point is pretty hard to beat. You get a performant fat client that you can treat like an interchangeable thin client as the need arises.
Exactly. I have a high-speed USB-C disk connected to my machine and an off-site backup. The first is for accidentally deleted files and to be able to quickly recover. The other is more of an actual backup. My iPhone and MacBook are indeed expendable devices at this point.
How about buying (and installing) two cheap laptops, say used Thinkpads (or Framework!?), and then backing up $HOME (and maybe list of installed packages) at one's convenience? These are nowadays light enough to carry around when traveling with luggage. If deemed too heavy, at least a Thinkpad likely is on sale closeby and `dd`ing an ISO image, installing the missing packages and copying $HOME should not take too long.
A bit annoying to lug around for a nomad. I'm in a similar situation where I travel a lot with my mac laptop. For me, the ease of just going to a store and buying one if my current fails me is all that matters.
All the stores I can get to within a reasonable time period stock ISO keyboards instead of ANSI, and I've never really warmed up to those. So I'm stuck with next-day even for macs.
> Will I be able to use the same mainboard for a decade?
Maybe, but you can actually just upgrade the mainboard. Framework has already done that cycle a couple of times. And they made sure the mainboard can work without a battery (not exactly a high bar, but it's better than most), so your old mainboard can pop into a small case and get a second life as a NUC
Yeah it's certainly the single most expensive component, but it's still cheaper than a whole new laptop and, more to the point, less waste than a whole new laptop
I brought my friend an HP because their PC wasn't booting for someone reason and it's more than enough.
If we really want to compare, I bet a refurbished Thinkpad would probably be about the same price as the typical Framework mainboard of similar performance.
If you like framework, thats great, but it's not really about saving money.
> If we really want to compare, I bet a refurbished Thinkpad would probably be about the same price as the typical Framework mainboard of similar performance.
And a used laptop is cheaper still! Which is all entirely irrelevant to the original point and the goal posts aren't even in view anymore. Finding cheaper products that aren't equivalent isn't exactly hard. If the singular thing you want is CPU performance then a laptop is a bad idea in the first place.
I think laptop gamers, and developers that use gaming laptops for work machines are somewhat niche (and I'm in that niche).
Because PC gamers often buy desktops. And console gamers buy consoles while handheld gamers buy handhelds and smartphone gamers...
Then there are other kinds of laptop users... the various Macbook users from the lightweight travel Air to the beefy desktop replacement 16" Macbook Pro, and the Windows business laptop users, and the Linux laptop users.
(I think we'd all do well to remember the variety in computers and computer users...)
So yeah, I've rarely bought anything but a gaming laptop that could easily be upgraded via RAM or SSD, and when I've bought non-upgradeable laptops (a tiny Asus 2-in-1 touchscreen) I found it just wasn't for me and I ended up selling it.
My favorite gaming laptops... Lenovo Legion 5 Pro, Acer Nitro 16. My spouse uses a Legion 5 Pro. My sister uses my 5+ year old Legion 5. They've all been a combination of good or great screen, great keyboard, good hardware, pretty quiet except when cranking up for demanding games, and so far all have been reliable, upgradeable, etc. We don't tend to use them on battery, but I've found that they tend to do 4-5 hours easily for basic usage. I wouldn't expect them to do well at all when pulling 100+ W for gaming. (My sister had an older Nitro and the quality was lacking, but I've been impressed by my 2023 model.)
Another happy Legion 5 Pro user here. It's not terrible on battery, but not great either. I usually carry one of those 26Mah battery banks in my bag just in case.
Lenovo has fantastic recent refurbs. It's a bit of a game, but you can find some for around 400$ or less.
My big beef with Macs is I need BIG ssds. If I want to get a 4TB SSD on a Macbook it starts at around 3000$. Recently I purchased a laptop with 2 SSD slots, although disappointingly only one is easy to access.
I'm tempted to go to Microcenter and tell them to replace the stock SSD with a 4TB( the stock SSD is the one behind a difficult to remove heat sink), and then I'd put another 4 tb ssd. Alternatively I could just pay 800$ for a 8TB SSD, install it in a laptop that cost around 1300-1500$ and I'm only spending 2300$.
On a Mac that's about 5000$. I make music and hate external drives with a passion.
First, I think you're correct that a used/refurb Thinkpad is a good solution for many people.
For me, what found attractive about the Framework is that I just don't like the idea of replacing my laptops wholesale. I like the little piecemeal upgrades that Framework offers. I like my tech to stay as unchanged as it can. I don't want to adjust to a new keyboard and touchpad and screen and charging situation all at the same time. I prefer the route of doing little upgrades over time, where things only change a little bit, when I'm ready for them to. Maybe next year I will upgrade the screen; maybe the next year I'll drop the USB-A module for something more useful; a couple years after that maybe I'll get a new mainboard; and all through this it's still the same laptop I've known and gotten used to. This is how I manage my desktop, and Framework lets me do the same with a laptop.
It's just a personality thing I think. Framework's piecemeal upgrade story is more attractive to me, but I agree there's other routes for people with other priorities.
Or buy an up-specced conventional laptop with a ton more storage and RAM to start with for the same price. Get your upgrades in first at no extra cost.
If you're getting a Framework with the top specs and can't get a competing laptop at higher spec cheaper, I can see the argument that you might benefit from the extra upgradability headroom. However that almost certainly means a mainboard upgrade, and I'd be concerned about the thermals of a current chassis with a hypothetical future mainboard.
In terms of hardware, there shouldn't be too many surprises. People have been doing this with desktop computers for ages, so it's known what it means to maintain and upgrade 10+ years old computers. I have one (desktop) that I'm using regularly, and did a few minor upgrades over the years.
Of course, warranty and support quality is a different question.
To me, the biggest appeal of the Framework laptop is that I can repair it myself and buy OEM parts directly.
I currently own a Lenovo Legion laptop. Still, a very powerful machine, but the screen now has a spot in the middle with multiple dead pixels, the topcoat on the trackpad is peeling off, and the main body has spots where palms rest. I'd happily buy replacement parts and install them, but I can't.
I don't understand the argument you can buy Lenovo OEM parts pretty easily? Even if something is not available through the pcparts site I ordered a replacement display via support.
Yeah! I am also surprised. I have a lenovo from 2015 that's gotten it's wifi card, power IC, RAM - all replaced at some point for very cheap across multiple cities in India. And all this is on a Ideapad. One of their budget "professional" laptops, not even a Thinkpad.
While I understand what Framework is doing and the repairability aspect, somehow this conversation always seems to make it seem Laptops are similar to Ipads or something. It's not.
I have been looking to buy a new laptop personally. Framework has a compelling argument. But with only 4 ports on the Framework, I'd likely be switching the ports often. In addition to using USB-C, I often need a USB-A for an external mouse but other times a HDMI port to connect to a display while presenting.
I don't think it's fair to compare Thinkpad X1 Carbon with Framework. The T14 range is a much better comparison. While Lenovo took a few steps back a few years ago the last couple of generations seem to be much better in regard to being repairable. The T14 Gen 5 [0] gets a 9/10 score on ifixit. Parts are easily available globally, while Framework is still somewhat limited in this regard geographically.
That said, it's great we have a choice! If it were not for Framework, I don't think Lenovo would have made an effort to make the Thinkpads repairable again.
My FW13 has two USB-C ports so I can charge from either side and have one free while it's charging, and then USB-A on one side and MicroSD on the other.
That covers all of my frequent needs. (My main monitor has usb-c input, and I have a couple of inexpensive adapters/hubs for HDMI, DP, Ethernet, etc. - all of which are used infrequently.)
I was a little concerned before buying it, and four is probably the minimum number of ports I could be happy with. But in practice I've been very satisfied with my port selection, and if you do need more ports, there's always the FW16.
Folks have done it in the community forum, and it works fine for basic data. It gets tricky when you want to support charging, because then you need multiple voltage levels and the circuitry to convert between them. Apparently video is hard to do also.
In my experience (my partner has a Framework), changing a port is not something easily done without putting the Framework bottom side up. In practice you need to stop whatever you are doing to first sleep the laptop, turn it over, change the port and then get back to what you were doing before. Repeat the process if you want to get the ports back in the original order.
I have a 16, not a 13, but I thought that the module swapping system was relatively similar, and this is not at all my experience. I just tilt up the bottom, click the port lock, and then pull out the module, and put in the new one. It takes me less than 10 seconds, all while the computer is on and open. So unless they module swap system isn't the same, I would have expected it to be even easier on the smaller, lighter 13.
Don't think I've ever done this. I reach under it, press the release button with one finger and with the adjacent finger grab the indentation under the card and slide it out. Card comes out in like two seconds.
Yeah, I agree with this. I find it simpler to just carry a couple of usb-c to whatever hub/adapters for when I need to a port my framework doesn't have built in.
The expansion cards seem pretty gimmicky to me. You're replacing a hub with... a bunch of hubs with one port on it. I know it opens up to some third party modules (this one seems particularly cool: https://github.com/LeoDJ/FW-EC-DongleHiderPlus) but for the most part you are getting less connectivity than other laptops. You don't even get an audio jack without taking up one of your expansion slots (edit: on the Framework 16. 13 includes it).
If the expansion slots were larger then they could have maybe facilitated something like getting 2 usb-a ports in exchange for the one USB-C which feels like an actual thing to consider. As it is, it just doesn't feel like you're gaining anything. If you're carrying any additional expansion cards with you you lose the only advantage it has over buying a hub, which can turn that one usb-c slot into multiple usb-a ports, ethernet, hdmi, audio, sd card reader, etc.
I bought the first AMD Framework 13 at launch. It just works and I’d buy it again.
To me their software story is compelling. To use the wording of the article, I like that I can be a weirdo running Linux on a laptop and not be a fringe use case. I had no interest in either of their supported distros but their support forums had the necessary hints needed to get a different distro up and running (plugging in newer firmware from the Linux kernel git).
I like that they’ve given some support to the FreeBSD community and I’d like to run that on a future Framework.
I purchased the first generation of FW13 laptops and got burned. The CMOS/RTC battery drains if not plugged in so the laptop never keeps proper time. I don't think I've ever used a gadget in the last few decades that needs setting the correct date & time every time I turn it on.
Granted, it was their first ever shipping product so I gave them a free pass but I thought they would atleast issue a recall or have a repair program where you send in the laptop to get it fixed. Instead they first denied it was even an issue, later on when enough people complained - they started a battery program where they send you a new ML220 coin battery that will also eventually stop working.
I was told buying a new mainboard (12th or 13th gen Intel) would fix it, but I decided to just buy a new ZenBook instead.
The permanent fix involves soldering stuff on the mainboard, which I don't have any prior experience. The RTC substitute module you mention is just the ML220 coin battery that will also eventually stop working.
I did this repair and it was not nearly as easy as you imply. The wire is extremely thin, and the pad on the motherboard is extremely small. I had to purchase special eye-wear in order to see what I was doing, in addition to a soldering iron.
It was and is totally wrong that Framework requires users to repair a component that was faulty from the factory. You should ship the laptops back to your facility and repair them, at your expense. At worst, offer a substantial discount on a motherboard replacement.
This experience is a big reason why I went from a strong Framework proponent to a strong detractor. You do not support your products, and users cannot trust you to do the right thing. You now bask in the idealistic haze of nerddom but your actions show that you're just a business for whom repairability is a sales strategy to justify premium prices.
The warranty suggests that Framework would "ship the laptops back to [their] facility and repair them, at [their] expense," as you said they should. Did that not happen while your warranty period was in effect?
The issue did not arise until after the warranty period expired. The manufacturing flaw drained the real-time clock battery which lasted about a year. Their first fix was to send a new battery; the second fix was a soldering job. I am not a lawyer, but this does not seem like it is legal. The manufacturing flaw was present from the beginning but was masked by the battery's charge.
I appreciate the response, but my suggestion would be to offer a mail-in service program so that users don't have to fiddle with potentially dangerous soldering (ideally Framework bearing the shipping costs or atleast subsidizing it).
I was on the market earlier this year snd I really wanted a framework to make sense. But it doesn’t. By my math, I could get two comparable laptops for the price of the framework, and the flexibility to get a second one with newer specs a few years down made it a bad deal for me. But if you aren’t strapped for cash and appreciate the sustainability, then it’s appealing. For me, a slightly greener laptop isn’t a good enough value proposition. Plus I prefer intel for TB support for an egpu.
What were you comparing against? When I bought my framework it didn't really have a price premium to it relatively to comparable laptops. The main compromise was the thicker chassis and fewer options in terms of things like premium displays.
> Plus I prefer intel for TB support for an egpu.
lol you and nobody else prefer Intel in a laptop these days. But FYI framework has TB support on their Intel skus and AMD has USB 4 (aka, thunderbolt 3++)
I didn't want to take any risks wrt the egpu support because with an egpu there's already a whole lot of unknowns, so wanted to play it safe with proper TB support. It's a bit of a niche requirement though, so I get that other people may not care. But aside from that I just wanted a basic cheap and light laptop. I got an Acer for £500 on sale with a 2nd gen intel chip. Despite the hate intel gets, their 2nd gen chips are actually really good in terms of battery life.
If I spec a comparable laptop right now on Framework, it's around £1400, even for 1st gen intel. Plus the Acer came with a lovely OLED screen, which the framework doesn't seem to have, as you mentioned.
Bought a thinkpad L450 10 years ago for about 900 euros. No GPU, which probably increased its lifespan. Replaced its HDD with a SSD.
Apart from thinkpads and maybe framework, I don't think there is any other reliable laptop brand with reasonable prices.
I was talking with my mother about buying jeans pants that would last for a long time, and a 200 euros jeans would have holes on its 6th year or something. Everything is built to last "just long enough".
I don't get Framework. The business offerings of HP, Dell and Lenovo have a lot of replacable parts, and you can easily upgrade the RAM and SSD on many. These laptops already exist for decades. Framework hardly brings anything new into the mix.
I think the Framework model (OTC/commodity parts + mainboard) is neat, but what Beelink and others in the MiniPC space are doing is much more useful and compelling for someone who needs a modern, extensible system.
My work doesn't require a lot of local compute (or repairs), so there's nothing really a Framework offers that I'm not already getting on a 5 year old $150 4GB Chromebook.
I really like the idea of Framework. But the use-case for their laptop just doesn’t typically exist for me.
I have a custom built PC (been building my own since 2008). In that span, I had many minor upgrades and 3 entirely new from-scratch builds. I could not imagine it any other way.
For my laptops though, I never bothered. I want something that “just works” when I’m on-the-go, it’s fine if it’s not new hardware as I won’t game on them, and my primary concern is how light they are.
And then a few years ago I got the iPad Pro which became my only device I’d take while traveling.
I think the author is the target customer for Framework. A customer looking for a ship of Theseus laptop that the seller stands by.
I’ve looked at framework as a potential next laptop but it’s expensive, some of parts are expensive, and the other parts I’m not sure I’ve ever had issues with in past laptops. I think I’m better off buying multiple used thinkpads over the course of my life, or even a used MBP (refurbished m4 MBP goes for ~$1.3K from Apple, base configuration w/ 16GB ram for framework 13 is ~1.2K), than a Framework; the thinkpads would be cheaper and more eco friendly with good build quality. I’m not looking for a ship of Theseus laptop, I’m just looking for something that works a long time, is good enough, and I want to keep my lifetime expenditure on hardware on the lower side. I look at my laptop cost as upfront cost divided by number of years I expect to use it for and I have a spreadsheet with past laptops (and phones) tracking historical usage and costs to better inform my next purchase. Framework looks attractive but the costs don’t seem to align with my goal.
I’m own a FW13 and I have bought ~4 for employees.
I doubt I will order more. We’ve had small and large issues.
My Linux machine will drain the battery completely if you don’t perform a full shutdown, and even then the quiescent drain is too high and I can expect it to be dead in a week.
The dream of repairability is great, but the reality just isn’t there.
That said, I was able to replace a damaged screen with no effort at all. A far cry from the MS Surface I had previously, but any vendor could sell a screen or keyboard without the “full modularity” that FW pushes.
Counterpoint… the battery is superglued to the chassis and to replace for my model was STEP 53, and that was to scrape the old battery off and glue the new one in, then 53 steps backwards to re-assemble.
Almost two years ago I bought an opened but never used ThinkPad T14s from eBay very cheaply. It's not too specced but it does the job and it will easily last me 2-3 more years at which point I just buy another one. I see what Framework is doing, and they probably need the support of customers to get the scale of Lenovo/Dell to lower the cost of production.
I've been wistfully watching people enjoy Framework Laptop from the sidelines for years now. One doubt that has always plagued me: realistically how long can the backwards compatibility for new improvements last? Surely there must be some point where a new processor, or chassis, or airflow improvement must necessitate the complete reconfiguration of the laptop internals or would be just plain unsupported? I don't have background in industrial design or electrical engineering so I've never been able to lay these doubts to rest.
We know how to make laptops now, and the framework is fine. A major development, like Apple-level power efficiency would require less airflow than x64. Don’t think there’s anything major to worry about. May need the 16 for pro-level local LLMs for a while.
Unfortunately the FW13 is how I realized I don't like 13(.5)" and 3:2, because I'm just too used to 14-16" and 16:10/16:9. I wish they had more variety in chassis, not just in size and aspect ratio, but also touchscreen and 2-in-1 conversion. You'd think that that might be easier to support than designing and supporting more mainboards. But when I saw that FW12 is a 2-in-1 I knew they were never going to add touch to 13/16, so I just gave up and got a different (larger) 2-in-1.
> Did I do anything productive or meaningful with it? Absolutely not.
> I could finally watch 480 YouTube videos instead of 360
What’s meaningless about this big upgrade in quality?
So with that and the misconceptions like "You can't change the RAM /SSD" (you can, but for a smaller set of laptops than before), the thesis is rather muddy (unless you literally plan a custom printed snacks tray, but even then other laptops have pluggable side bays, so could also plug in there?)
I'm guessing that the author is comparing it to their their M1 MacBook Pro, which has soldered in RAM and an Apple proprietary SSD, that is much more difficult to replace than a standard one.
Many laptops do still have replaceable RAM and SSDs, but it's not a sure thing these days.
I've had a Framework 13 for 20 months now. AMD Ryzen™ 5 7640U w/ 32GB DDR4. Running Ubuntu. I love it. My only complaint/request: USB-C for power should be build into the chassis and not require a modular port. You get 4 ports to mix things like usb/hdmi/sd-card, etc... 1 of the 4 is always using the usb-c for power.
As someone not swimming in piles of cash, I can't bring myself to get a framework laptop. Ironically enough, new ThinkPads, which are on sale pretty regularly, end up being much nicer, solidly built, more performant, and with an awesome warranty, even in my shithole region.
I’d like to read from someone who has at least 5 years of experience with Framework. New stuffs are always interesting. But I prefer something that can last for 5 plus years. Framework afaik does not have long term guarantees which is a concern.
Framework as a company is only 5 years old, but they've already done several generations of upgrade parts (including webcam, keyboard, display, mainboards, etc...) and have large availability of repair/replacement parts. So unless their parts are uniquely bad in that they randomly fail after 5 years, it seems pretty clear that they are delivering on the long term ownership goals?
I think that's a reasonable point - is there anyone doing "State of My Framework" reports? It's hard to know how true their claim of timelessness through upgrades and repairs is without that.
I very much want a Framework 13 with a decent AI chip, but the abysmal battery life is a hard stop for me, sadly. I know this isn't entirely on Framework (get your shit together AMD).
I have the Intel Core Ultra and on the first mainboard I had (which Framework replaced because there were other issues) the fan ran quite a lot and was annoying. On the second board the fan never runs unless I'm compiling something.
Oh, I did magnificent things to my old Toughbook CF-17 / CF-m34. (It ended up as a franken-puter with parts of both.)
First: Remove the internal CDPD wireless modem, remove the internal 56k POTS modem/10/100 Ethernet combo card. Wire the TTL-level UART from the CDPD port over to the RJ11 jack so I could now hack on embedded devices using a simple RJ11-to-bare-wires cable.
Second: The modem/ethernet card removal freed up the MiniPCI slot. Obtain a MiniPCI-to-USB2.0 card (4 downstream ports), and desolder the tall headers (it was meant for embedded machines with more internal space). Then verrrry carefully desolder the machine's external USB1.1 port pins from the mobo, and wire them over to one of the USB2.0 host ports. (Ground stayed, but D+/D-/Vbus moved.) Ta-daa, faster external devices.
Third: Carve out some stiffening ribs from under the palm-rest, shuck a USB-Bluetooth adapter, and mount it in there. The palm-rest being plastic means this puts the radio outside the magnesium shell, but still "internal" from an ergonomic perspective. Sneak some wires past the touchpad opening and solder them to the now-freed-up USB1.1 host port on the mobo, since bluetooth doesn't need 480Mbps.
Fourth: Shuck a 2GB USB flash drive and wire it to another internal USB2.0 port, and run EBoostr, a third-party implementation of Readyboost for WinXP, which gave flash-cache functionality for severely RAM-limited machines like mine (192MB mobo max, sadly!). Tuck it up by the RAM, ironically, because there's plenty of room up there.
Fifth: Shuck a USB2.0-GigE adapter (one with separate magnetics and jack, leave the magnetics but remove the jack because it's too tall, also remove the USB port), and wire it to yet a third internal USB2.0 port. Wire the Ethernet side out to the RJ45 jack freed up by the 10/100 card removal. The speed boost from 100Mbps to 480Mbps (GigE bottlenecked by USB2.0) isn't nothing, but the real benefit is that GigE is Auto-MDIX so I never have to carry a crossover cable, and that's worth it all by itself.
Sixth: Shuck a USB-Wifi dongle, and wire it to the fourth and final internal USB2.0 port. Do the world's hairiest coax splice to the CDPD modem's antenna lead, so the 2.4GHz RF now goes out to the 800MHz-tuned antenna mounted on the screen. Split the antenna open and trim the active elements to 1/3 their length, raising the resonant frequency accordingly. Without access to a VNA at the time, this was as good as I could get, and it worked just fine.
At that point, it was pretty much the perfect laptop, except for the brutally-limited RAM, which eventually forced its obsolescence as browsers bloated without bound. I used it heavily during 2006-07, and to this day I still miss that perfect little keyboard.
I’ve never been brave enough to modify my laptops beyond the one time I sprayed a new (hard) topcoat on an Acer Aspire 5520g… which turned it from a flimsy piece of garbage into a slightly less flimsy piece of garbage.
I feel like running a Thinkpad x201 these days would be a lesson in frustration (for the browser bloat you mentioned) but that was my perfect laptop. If I could do a mainboard swap I would continue to use it.
Yeah, although the low-res screens on older machines are pretty limiting with modern UIs too. Try setting 800x600 for an hour and see how you fare. I have romantic dreams about spinning a new mobo for the Toughbook, but it would have to include a screen transplant too. And at that point I probably fail a lot of the toughness that made it worthwhile in the first place.
I want to like framework, but whenever I've seen one of them in person I was pretty disappointed about the case/chassis. And the touchpad.
For me personally, weight doesn't matter that much, and neither does configurability (I guess by now they have data on the most popular port choices for example).
But size (as small/minimal as possible for a given screen and keyboard size – minimal bezels for both) and strength (no flex, solid hinge) do matter to me.
I understand these two things conflict with themselves, and with the framework's repairability and configurability.
Still, I'd like to see some true innovation there. I'm just afraid they painted themselves into a corner with their current mainboard design, and won't be able to diverge from that to bring us something truly solid yet compact and repairable.
I just wish they would introduce a TKL layout. I don't use laptop keyboard because during development I rely on the navigation key combos. Think control-shift-home or shift-arrow, or control-pagedown.
And it's disappointing because Framework is the _perfect_ company to offer such an option.
I've posted this about a year ago on another Framework thread. I see a lot of questions from people interested in FW laptops, so I thought my experience may help understand the good and bad.
I bought a Framework 13" in 2022, Intel 13th gen with 32GB ram (probably not as stupid as expensive as it is now) and 1TB drive.
It has good intentions but falls short. I would say overall it is a mediocre laptop in terms of quality.
Will it last longer than any other laptop? I would think so, as it has a strong story of available parts and upgrades. Similarly I believe it would last longer than any other laptop, since you can essentially do a Ship of Theseus with it.
Pain points:
- display hinge problem, picking up the laptop would make the screen lie flat 180 degrees, which is really annoying - this has been fixed in newer versions of framework, but to get a new hinge kit costs $39 AUD plus $30 AUD in shipping, so I'm not willing to make that purchase due to the ridiculous shipping price,
- the modular ports are nice, but I'd rather just have fixed ports and more of them, of course that'd obstruct the repair/modularity story,
- sometimes the modular ports do not work after resuming from a hibernate, I have to eject and reseat it,
- the display is okay, I notice mine has a small granular line of off coloured pixels - i don't think this is due to any physical damage but rather a defect in the screen as I've never had this kind of issue with any other laptop and I've handled the framework fairly carefully; but this line of off coloured pixels is very faint and virtually unnoticeable unless using very dark colours, so it's not a huge deal as I make it out to be,
- the keyboard works great, but I was hoping for an upgrade to something along the lines of an apple style layout with half height inverted-t arrow keys and fn/ctrl swapped; the idea of a marketplace for custom parts never really eventuated save a few niche things like RISC V,
- Battery life of about 3-4 hours of very average usage,
- Speakers are trash.
The webcam / mic are good enough.
I run Linux on it, and seems to run pretty stable.
I needed this laptop because I needed 32GB of ram for compile jobs (c++ programmers on large projects knows such pain). I have since got a macbook pro 16" with >32GB of ram and it can compile what I need using Rosetta 2 for Linux (so amd64 compiles). Since my mac can now do everything I need, I haven't really touched my Framework; I just keep it spare when I need a bare metal x86-64 in a pinch. I loathe the idea of having to use it over a mac laptop.
The good news is since my post a year ago, Apple has since released the m4 chips which allow the Macbook Air range to drive up to two external displays using thunderbolt.
They need to bring trackpoint and WWAN, otherwise they simply are not a competition for Lenovo, as much as I hate it.
I also find their design very boring. I am not asking for a MacBook, but even ThinkPads are way more sexy and you can actually identify with that design. Framework just comes off as another 2015 MacBook Air design knockoff.
If I'm buying a premium machine, I don't expect and want to mod it with $3 tape and ¢50 markers. It's like buying a premium car and installing an aftermarket instrument cluster because the OEM one is too bright at its lowest setting.
I agree, but reality is often different, even for cars. Sometimes because of incompetence, sometimes because of dark patterns. Many newer cars do have space for putting your phone somewhere on the middle console, but it's arranged in ways to make it impossible to place your phone in a way that would make it usable for navigation. Why? Because they desparately want you to use their own navigation setup (which probably costs extra too).
If we exclude a Dacia which lacked a screen and a radio, all the cars I have rented in the last three years had Android Auto and Apple CarPlay built in. Even though my phone was tucked there somewhere, I always used my phone's maps and other features while driving via the USB cable or wirelessly.
And, that wasn't half bad even. Did phone calls, used maps, listened to some music. Got the job done pretty smoothly.
The LED is the lining of the power button so it's not so trivial to fix without affecting the power button itself. It's quite an annoyance too I think.
Lowest screen brightness and color correctness of the said screen are not trivial issues. I used to work in a dimly illuminated room during late nights, and any screen which can't do low-light properly is blinding.
Color correctness, even if you don't hit "calibrated pipeline" levels is extremely useful for seeing and/or editing photos. Even if you're doing this casually.
The lightest one? What about the display colour mismatch, which is literally one of the first things I calibrate away when I get a new laptop, even on macbooks? Imagine moaning about two displays from completely different manufacturers and production dates showing different colours...
Or maybe the auto-dimming feature which can be disabled by software?
Or the touchpad which is 'too sensitive when scrolling'....
How? Do you expect every user to have an easier access to color calibration hardware devices to fix this issue compared to a software fix they could find after some googling???
> auto-dimming feature which can be disabled by software
He also disabled the led via software, so you failed to point out why this one is easier
> the touchpad which is 'too sensitive when scrolling'....
How is this lighter? Touching the touchpad is a very frequent action, so the deficiency will affect you every day, and you can’t fix it by looking up some systemd service unlike the LED, and you can’t put a sticker on it to dim it. So how is an unsolvable frequent issue more trivial than a solvable one?
The really special thing about Frameworks is that you can quickly buy and replace basically any part, not just the usual RAM and SSD -- case in point, when I managed to damage my FW13's keyboard such that it was no longer usable, I could just... go straight to Framework's website and buy a new one for $40. And, I even had the option of a slightly improved one, that shed the Windows key and lacked the god-awful copilot key.
This approach even allows the manufacturer to correct design flaws after the fact -- and let's face it, there will always be design flaws. For instance, my FW13 originally came with a very weak hinge for the screen. It was perfectly usable for most daily usage and most people probably wouldn't care, but it meant I couldn't hold it up without the screen tilting back. Well, FW corrected this for those customers who really did care by just selling a new hinge for $24, and so $24 + 10 minutes with a screwdriver later, I had a substantially more refined device! (And to clarify -- there was a defective hinge version in the early batches, and those were replaced free of charge. Mine was a slightly later version that, beyond lacking the level of stiffness I preferred, was not defective.)
Being able to replace the keyboard is especially wonderful because laptops are usually "region-locked". I know people who use relatively unpopular layouts relative to where they live, and it makes it harder to buy and much harder to sell their Macs.
This curse extends to mechanical keyboards as well. There exists all sorts of fancy, beautiful and odd keycap sets... for Americans. Some times for German and French. If I get really lucky, I'll find some with a "Nordic" layout, which is an abomination that combines dk/se/no.
Not a us user, but ended up with us and uk layout, just because they where easier to find. (also works fine for programming)
Yea, the danish layout is objectively terrible[1], but I have many decades of muscle memory with it now...
[1] Shift+7 == /, AltGr+¨ == ~. These two in particular are tedious as a Linux user.
The solution is to get blank keycaps. Then it doesn’t matter.
It does matter, because the phyiscal keys themselves are literally in different places.
Comparison:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt1DL1fO6Zs
Note that weird abomination of a backslash key around the enter key on the US keyboard.
There's no way to just map the US keyboard to the UK one.
Sure, I’m familiar with the weird UK layout.
It is the US layout that stands out. The UK layout follows ISO 9995, which most other countries also follow.
And I thank god every day we don't. The ISO keyboard is awful. Left shift is too important of a key to be 1u. I don't need a massive enter key that lives on two rows. Just insane choices.
The big enter key I do like.
But I’ve ended up using a split keyboard where every key is 1u. All language layouts map to the physical layout in basically the same way.
UK is fine.
Mac UK is shit.
It’s certainly a matter of opinion. I dislike the UK layout, except on macs where it’s just about ok.
They hide # behind additional key combination, and expose §.
It's awful.
# is in its proper place, if you grew up programming on a US-derived keyboard.
Some of the other changes aren’t great, I agree.
No its not.
Shift+3 does not give you #.
I use a Dvorak-based layout on Qwerty keyboards, so in normal usage they could as well have blank keycaps.
Despite that, the Qwerty keycaps remain useful for me, because my keyboards are not programmable, so the key mapping is done by the operating system. When I have to unlock the computer with a password, after booting, the keyboard still works as Qwerty and the keycaps help me in entering the password, because nowadays I touch-type only on Dvorak, while on Qwerty I must return to hunt-and-peck, as there are many years since I stopped using Qwerty.
So only because of this password entering, I prefer to not have blank keycaps, even if I ignore them in normal usage.
Kind of true, but it's an aesthetics issue as well. The doubleshot keycaps look so nice :)
> I know people who use relatively unpopular layouts relative to where they live
I will always loath the Mac UK keyboard layout. Wildly different than ISO and ANSI for absolutely no benefit.
what do you mean?
If you get the key caps, they're trivially swapped.
I use Dvorak, and I've swapped keys for every generation of keyboard over the last 10 years. Once swapped, the layout can be set system wide.
They're really not -- Mac scissor switches are pretty delicate, and it's easy to do damage to the tiny plastic nubs on the keycaps or the switches... and if you damage the metal retaining frame in any way, you're toast (Mac laptop keyboards are virtually unreplaceable, being buried in the "bottom" of the unibody chassis).
I think they mean different regions have physically different layouts. I supported users in different countries and know that French layouts are different than Hebrew layouts which are different from English layouts and so on. Trying to buy different key caps doesn’t give the user a native layout because the shapes of the layouts are somewhat different.
I was hoping that this is how it would work for System76 -- when I bought the laptop they sold replacement batteries. Five years later I find myself needing a battery and they are unavailable -- not on System76's website, not online, nowhere. My only option is to either replace the laptop or buy a used one and take the battery from that, hoping that it's good.
For the last six months I've just been using a laptop as a mini pc with no battery.
FWIW, I have a 5 year old dell XPS whose battery I could both find an replace easily.
That is one of the advantages of the bigger name brands, replacement parts are generally a lot easier to find.
I was in it to support the company and their goals, but the experience was a little souring.
Aren't System76 laptops just rebranded Cleo, which is why there is no design consistency?
They don't manufacture batteries and never have, I've always had mixed feelings when it comes to "supporting their goals".
I appreciate their work to get Linux working on those models, but they can't provide long term hardware support.
They are, but a selling point at the time was that you could buy replacement parts from System76.
Yeah, but is it OEM? Even big names like Dell don't support their parts for that long, and you have to resort to getting sketchy third-party parts from China, or rolling the dice on a used OEM part.
Yes. I bought it directly from dell.com
https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-97-wh-6-cell-lithium-io...
https://system76.com/search.php?search_query=battery
If I search for battery stuff shows up, but they only ship bare batteries to the 48 states and Canada.
Contacting support should be able to help you too.
Right, I went down that route as well:
> The hardware supplier that we use no longer has the battery. Therefore, we cannot sell you the battery. What we can do is provide you with the part numbers so you can source it elsewhere. If you're considering sourcing the battery for the Darter Pro 5 from another supplier, please note that the model number for the battery is N150BAT-4, and the original part number is 6-87-N15ZS-51E01. Third-party battery sellers may display one or both of these numbers and might also list other compatible part numbers that are suitable for the same model.
It's actually a Darter Pro 6, but the battery part number is correct in that text.
You can not purchase this battery, it no longer exists. There are a few sketchy websites which say that they sell it, but they will cancel your order a few days after placing it and tell you that there is "lack of material".
I think it's too much to ask a small shop to do something if the original supplier stops shipping a part. Especially 5 years later.
I use laptops since the 90‘. I only ever wanted to get a new battery. Everthing else never had anybsignificant problem, or started to have problems when the machine was already obsolete (5 to 10 years). While I like the Frameworks, I personally don’t see lots of advantages in terms of reparability, ovly eventually in making one with exactly what I need and no more. But then they are a little pricey.
Had to replace the NVME SSD in my Thinkpad a few years after it went out of warranty (that Thinkpad has a motherboard replacement on warranty as well). Needed to replace the fan in an older Thinkpad after 9 years.
Unfortunately the quality of Thinkpads went downhill after Lenovo took over, they used to be really good. But there is nothing else with trackpoints these days, which I vastly prefer over touchpads. (And even on some old Dells that had trackpoints, they never felt as good as on Thinkpads.) Also, Linux support was always very good, though that is less of an issue these days.
Never had to replace a battery though, but I always used that "don't charge more than 80%" mode. My old Thinkpad with a Core 2 Duo from 2009 still gets over a hour of battery (though the laptop is largely unusable for any practical use these days).
I don't mind repairing electronics in general, even on a component level if need be (as long as the components are large enough that I can see them, which really isn't the case any longer with tiny SMD components). And I tend to use things for a very long time rather than replace them. I'm still rocking a Dell monitor from 2013 for example.
I've also had laptops since the 90s, but my experience is the opposite. I've upgraded something in most of them. Almost all of them got RAM and storage upgrades. One got a mostly-compatible motherboard upgrade that required grinding down a couple bits on the frame to make it fit, and I got to have a 4:3 IPS display for a bit longer.
I love the idea of the Framework. I don't love the lack of a trackpoint, or the pricing. I'm willing to forgive the latter since it's a small company with a mission I appreciate. There's likely a Framework 16 in my future eventually.
In 5-10 years, you can upgrade the motherboard+processor on a framework, which is much cheaper than a whole new laptop.
Right, next time ill buy 1-3 extra batteries when buying a laptop.
How will you store them? In the freezer? It's not trivial to keep batteries in good condition.
If you keep them at about 50% and avoid temperature extremes, it doesn't take a PhD in electrochemistry. The thing is, fancy battery packs usually do contain active electronics that drain the cells slowly in storage, so it's necessary to charge them a little a couple times a year.
Yes, good idea. I do have a large freezer. Vacuum seal it, charge to 60% one time per year. Adjust charge interval to whatever remains after 12 months. It has to stay above 30%.
That'll probably be the last time that happens since a lot of places are starting to require parts be made available for some years after the last sale of the device.
I noticed that the battery properties (voltage, etc) were uncommon, as I considered other batteries that would physically fit within the available space.
At the end of the day it's probably worth replacing it with something that probably won't burn my house down.
I almost pulled the trigger on a mini PC over the summer, but said "the laptop still works, you don't really need this" and now it would be 30 or 40% more because of ddr5 and NVMe cost spikes.
It's not a money thing, it's the principal of it.
Need a custom battery shop that can scan and build everything.
A lot of System76 laptops are essentially rebadged versions of Chinese or Taiwanese ODMs. You might have some luck trying to research what model the ODM produces the laptop as and find replacement batteries for that instead of focusing on finding System76 branded batteries.
Hope you find your batteries.
Yes, I went down the clevo path as well. No dice, it does not exist.
I found a few which said "in stock" but was refunded each time as the part didn't actually exist.
I had no idea about this. I don't see how anybody who is buying one of these because of the repair-ability would complete the purchase if they knew this. I also don't see how they can make all of their user-friendly claims if this is the case.
I'm running my lemur pro with no battery (on a UPS) now too. My first battery ballooned and then I got a second aftermarket one and it balooned too -- Yikes!
Depending on the model you might be able to find it online. My system 76 had a “Clevo” ID on the bottom sticker ( the company that manufactures the computers) I used to buy a replacement fan.
I went that route. The OEM is no longer making the part, and it is not stocked anywhere.
Frustrating.
It’s too bad there isn’t standard cells anymore. I did notice my Bluetooth speaker (which had replacement batteries available) also had instruction videos floating around on buying replacement cells and rebuilding the battery pack.
Laptop packs I don’t think are typically made of replacable cells.
Exactly - imagine if early MacBook Butterfly keyboard users had the option to simply upgrade their keyboard to a fixed version for $40...
[1]https://www.keyboardsettlement.com/
One of the white Macbooks used 50 screws to fasten the keyboard. Once I spilled some juice on it and had to replace it. Took forever, but at least back then it was not too expensive or difficult.
Could have been worse: I replaced a keyboard for a friends daughter and her Dell had ~50 plastic studs holding the keyboard in place, each one was melted rivet-style. I had to remove enough that I could get the keyboard out, but not so much that there wasn't still plastic to melt to hold the new keyboard in place.
It depends on vendor really - I have Lenovo T480 and I replaced keyboard earlier this year (there are various options like w/ or w/o backlit + layout (I'm Czech), I have 2 batteries - one for "normal" use and extended one (in size and capacity) for traveling, changing multiple SSDs and RAM is possible (not soldered)... it's not framework, but easily fixable and Linux friendly HW.
T480 is indeed superb (except for being on the heavy side). I accidentally hurled my phone into the screen (both were on the bed and I shook the sheets trying to find the beeping phone). The replacement screen was like $75 and a 5 minute job. On MacBooks that’s typically closer to $600.
I’ll probably replace it eventually with a t14 which is pretty light these days.
the T series thinkpads tend to have a high repairability rating (9/10 on ifixit ) and easy affordable access to parts, it's the X series that's a PITA imo
Is there any generally agreed upon and reliable source for replacement batteries? Given the fire risk, I'm much less willing to take the risk of substandard aftermarket parts when it comes to batteries.
Lenovo stopped selling the batteries for the T480, so the only sources are various 3rd party manufacturers I've never heard of.
++on older Lenovo. Something that Framework might have after many years is a viable secondary and third party market for repair components. Lenovo has also done a great job with keeping their detailed service manuals online and available.
I’ve always found this line of thinking to match up with drivers of old Land Rovers.
The thinking goes they are brilliant because they are so easy to repair and parts are easy to source globally.
While that’s true, I much prefer to drive vehicles that don’t need repairs.
I don't know about you, but every laptop I've had suffered some sort of malfunction sooner or later and I never bothered to have them serviced because it was too much of a hassle - especially seeing how a friend of mine outright battled Lenovo support over mundane things like a failing keyboard despite everything being still in warranty.
Specific issues by laptop:
1. Pressure marks on screen, failing USB ports, cracked hinge after three years.
2. Pressure marks on screen, failed battery, failing power supply socket after seven years.
3. Warped reflective layer in screen, rattling fans, overheating despite fan replacement (which I did at home and it took three hours) after five years.
I also broke the butterfly keyboard on a 2019 MBP I was using at work.
With the Framework I can address each and every one of the mentioned problems myself - just need to order parts and spend half an hour or so per item.
Used mba bought in 2013, taken right around Africa in a 4x4 through 35 countries, sold in 2019. Never an issue.
Used mbp bought in 2019, taken through a dozen countries in a 4x4, sold in 2022. Never an issue.
Used M1 mba bought in 2022, taken to twenty countries, never an issue.
I do heavy photo and 4K video editing, light dev work, writing, web.
I restart at most once a year.
Guess my normal usage is more destructive than your trips. The main driver of wear in my case was always commuting with the device and thus also plugging/unplugging things several times a day.
Also if you hold a 2kg closed laptop with one hand - you're going to have pressure marks and I learned that the hard way.
Anyway, all around me people have always had hardware issues - also with Apple products. I recall replacing the battery in a late 2011 MBP because it was swollen as it failed from age alone.
Bottom line is that I believe you, I just think you're an outlier.
Similar here. When I trade in my old MacBooks after 4-6 years of use they function like new and look almost new, and I do plenty of moderate-heavy dev work and traveling.
I have a nearly 5 year old ThinkPad that's in great condition too. Never needed a repair, though it's had a couple of spells where it acted funky that resolved themselves.
In Australia, all of these things would be returned for a full refund under Australia Consumer Law as a major fault, there is no time limit, just expectations of a reasonable consumer.
I can’t imagine trying to sell into the Australian market if a failing power socket after seven years is cause for a full refund.
“My laptop is really slow.”
“Don’t you think the power supply socket is faulty? <wink />”
Would really have to come down what a reasonable consumer would expect; that is part subjective and part objective. If you could show an experience of having laptops for various lifetimes, some extending beyond 7 years some below, none having a failing power socket, that might be sufficient to convince that it is a major fault. If it is a cheap laptop maybe you don't have a chance, but a premium product you could argue that it failed to be durable.
(I read this as the power socket in the laptop, not so much the power supply, obviously you'll have less luck there.)
There is no such thing as a vehicle that doesn't need repairs. Just ones you can't repair yourself.
The idea is that repairability and reliability are sometimes at odds.
I owned a number of 90s trucks and though it was easier to get into the engine, I had to do it well before 100k miles sometimes. Meanwhile I have a 2010s Japanese vehicle that is at 200k with only an alternator replaced.
Similarly there's now a few models of EV known to make it well past the 100k mark while needing little to no maintenance aside from replacing consumables. Most people aren't knowledgeable or well-equipped enough to work on those, though.
This sounds like correlation not causation.
It is and it isnt. The more goals a design has the harder it is to achieve all of them well.
True technically, but there's many people that almost enjoy working on their cars IF they are pleasant to work on. And some are. At that point the car is just an avenue for your hobby of working on cars.
My parents have a Lexus RX400H (hybrid), that even for me as a car guy is a nightmare to work on. It's technically never had a fault since 2007 with 215k miles. But changing the spark plugs was probably the third hardest thing I've done with cars, only behind dropping a transmission and doing a head gasket job on other cars.
It would also be apt if the handover cost $10,000 but the engine cost $9000.
My framework 13 is OKAY. But the reality of it is the economics just don’t make sense with their pricing.
The biggest thing people can comment on the keyboard is easily replaceable. That’s cool and I love the idea, but any vendor could do that part.
I had a Framework mainboard die and I was able to replace it myself with a free replacement they sent me without need to throw away the laptop. The economics make sense when you consider they don't get the priority for chips or the volume discounts that a company like Dell would get from AMD or Intel. They are getting scraps and doing what they can to make it work.
Is that a viable business model though? That they’ll always be a niche supplier with low-vokume issues, seems like a tough market.
In fact, I think Dell or HP or Other could demolish Framework in a 1/2 second by offering a line that was even 50% the offering. By focusing on replaceable screens, keyboard, and standing the chassis for multiple boards and selling some parts they dry up FW’s moat with little effort.
That would be an AWESOME market development. Not great for framework but if they end up folding because larger manufacturers adopt most sustainable/interchangeable practices thats a win and I'm happy my framework purchase help prove/promote that market change.
The same companies that can’t make a proper website to sell their products? Please. Framework’s got it in the bag.
I don’t remember the number of times I typed dell.com or Lenovo.com, looked for a replacement for my 10-year old XPS, and came out extremely frustrated with the experience. Not to mention the recent copy-paste nonsense from Dell with their Pro/Pro Max laptop offerings.
Good display, decent CPU, a battery that lasts a day, and Linux support - that’s all that I ask for. Outside of Apple(bar Linux support) are there any manufacturers that offer that?
That last sentence is just not true. Have an end user easily order and replace a MacBook Air keyboard, or easily upgrade their MacBook screen direct from the website.
The problem is of course that no vehicles/devices as of now exist that are indestructible
Yep, did the same thing too. It's nice that you just need one tool to unscrew, screw things and everything is labelled well that you don't need to go dig to multiple websites on how to do repair/replace parts. But of all things, replacing keyboard was the most tedious one in framework with so many screws, haha.
Just broke my control key. They're sending me a new keyboard (well the whole cover as chznging the keyboard is hard) as part of the EU garantee.
Awesome. My last laptop had the same problem but the repair employee broke the whole computer when he came to replace the keyboard. Dell then did not want to accept their fault.
Vive le framework.
What? How does that even survive legal scrutiny? They broke your laptop
It would be nice to replace the keyboard with an inverted T-arrow layout and the fn as the leftmost corner key.
Alas this third party parts manufacturer/supplier never took off.
I replaced the keyboard in my 5 year old Dell laptop without difficulty. The battery as well (at the same time). It was an instant way to make it run and feel like new
Oh this is great, my keyboard is flaking and the hinge is as you say, I didn't realize they'd fixed it. I'll do some shopping now, thanks!
The latest version of the hinge is on the money.
I assume not just replace, but upgrade, in some cases
You can swap out the motherboard, so yeah. Not sure how long they support specific Laptop bodies (or frames) for but I would imagine some of their frames are good for a long minute.
The motherboards are often 80%+ the cost of an entire new machine though.
Probably because they include the CPU if I am not mistaken, but probably makes sense and is worth the hassle if your concern is your CPU / main hardware is falling behind.
Does that make sense? Because for another $200-300, you get a new chassis, keyboard, monitor, touchpad, webcam, antennas, and whatever else.
It’s kind of a bad deal.
You're excited about the prospect of repairing a manufacturer's faulty engineering at your own cost?
An analogy would be buying a new car then bragging to your friends that despite it being a lemon, you're thrilled because you can repair it yourself (at cost).
You’re missing the common alternative in the modern age which is the manufacturer not selling the part at all and being left with a pile of unrepairable junk despite an otherwise functioning device.
Laptop hinges were notorious for killing laptops for like a decade.
"Lemon" was never mentioned. That's extreme. I don't care what make and model of car you choose, I'll show you a list of TSBs associated with that model. There's never been a car produced that was perfectly engineered and had no after-sale issues common to that model and year. There's always something.
Yes, I would be thrilled to find a car that gave cheap and available replacement parts so I could remedy those issues later. That used to be the standard! The trend now is for automakers to keep juicing the proprietary software tools and one-off components, making repairability harder for the owner.
So, to rephrase your analogy: "[That's like] buying a new car then bragging to your friends ... that you're thrilled because you can repair it yourself (at cost)."
Then you show them the long term amortized value of that car over its lifetime, not to mention waste reduction, and it starts to make more sense.
I could have had my hinge replaced for free? Crap lol
I thought Framework was worth a gamble.
I replaced my last laptop after 10+ years because the battery gave out, the end-of-life hardware was so old it no longer got OS upgrades, and eventually apps stopped working. I like the idea of getting to easily throw new hardware at my machine to keep it going.
(I also tired of Apple shoving bad experiences down my throat (TouchBar, Butterfly keyboards, thin glass screens that crack, USB-C and no USB-A...) so I spec'ed out my Framework with USB-C and USB-A.)
But aside from repairability when stuff breaks, a laptop's hardware slowly becomes obsolete because software is usually written for the new stuff. If you're like me and you keep your laptop for 10 years, that means: in year 1 you have 1 year old hardware, in year 6 you have 6 year old hardware, etc. So your laptop gets worse and worse performance because you can't incrementally upgrade your hardware... you only upgrade in a big bang every 10 years when you buy a new one. Towards the end of its life, you're really struggling to keep the thing above water.
With a Framework, in theory I can upgrade the hardware incrementally over time rather than needing a big bang every 10 years. So instead of having 6 year old hardware at year 6, I'll probably have 2 year old hardware again. So I'll more closely match the industry improvements curve.
Will this work in reality? Will it be expensive to replace all the parts, and will the case be able to cool new CPUs, and will I have to get a new mainboard, etc? Who knows. But I thought it was interesting enough to take a gamble on the laptop. And worst case, it's not a fatal decision... I can just go back to MacBooks...
Replacing a CPU means replacing a motherboard - this is mostly true for desktops too. And by the time you’re ready for a new CPU there is almost certainly a new type of RAM to get.
Understood - a new mainboard on the Framework website is around $700, which I still prefer to a new laptop.
I'd be willing to pay more over time to have better hardware over my laptop's life. Meaning, I'd rather pay ~$3200 over 10 years for a Framework + 2 mainboard upgrades + a RAM upgrade vs ~$2000 for a laptop that slowly gets worse over the same time period.
At least with desktop you sometimes get a CPU upgrade path.
For example, with Socket 939, I started with an Athlon 64 3000+, and upgraded later to an X2 4200+.
With Socket AM4, I skipped the first generation, got a Ryzen 2700X, then skipped the next generation, and then got a Ryzen 5900X! (But a solid 4 generations on the same socket!)
The problem is that the Framework starts so far behind in performance and battery efficiency of a cheaper Macbook that you aren’t saving money on perf upgrades.
You really do have to buy it for the idea rather than the reality.
I don't love this comparison, because I have to use Linux, not Mac. It's not really optional for me, and Asahi simply isn't far enough along to fill the gap.
As a result, the question is more Framework vs. Dell or Lenovo, and that creates a much smaller gap in capability in the 13" form factor.
Side complaint: I'm irked that the smaller surface laptop didn't continue with custom AMD chips since they were getting quite powerful in the last one.
Other complaint is that because of comments here I went looking at framework but it doesn't show what GPU comes with AMD processors so I'm going to have to not look at this on mobile.
I have a Thinkpad, Asus and surface 13" amd and none have fully scratched the itch for my go to machine. Asus is powerful enough but the build quality and durability are pure garbage.
Where is Asahi not far enough if I may ask? I've been daily driving it for 2 years by this point.
While it was not really useable for mainstream usecases in the beginning (no speakers, no webcam, other random issues), it did get better month by month and problems got resolved, I find useability equal to my x86 laptops now.
Doesn’t work on anything newer than an M2, for starters.
We were talking about performance and battery efficiency for cost. I don't know, but I'd reasonably assume an M2 Macbook wins on these ratios.
Find me a new MacBook Air that’s $1000 for 2TB of storage + 32GB of RAM, because that’s what I paid for my Framework 13 brand new (before RAM insanity, but this would still only cost about $1200 today).
A $50 battery pack solved the battery efficiency problem.
So for a little extra weight (external battery + FW13 weighs the same as a MB Pro 14”) I get a lot more actual capability in places that matters than a base MacBook Air.
I’ve got two more USB-C/Thunderbolt ports than the Air on both sides of the system with the option to swap them for any I/O I want.
And I’m not stuck with macOS arbitrarily dropping support for my non-upgradable all-soldered hardware every 10 years.
(I also couldn’t really find a similar Lenovo at anything close to that price/spec with the kind of requirements I have - good keyboard with low flex, nice to haves like the 3:2 aspect ratio, generally a programmer-oriented laptop with good. My second choice might be a Lenovo ThinkPad X9 15 Aura Edition. The T14 series has unacceptable deck flex. Even value systems like the IdeaPad 5i 16 cost more. I could see myself enjoying a Zenbook like the Zenbook Duo but again it costs more).
That’s all well and good, but you didn’t consider the processor performance, which is where the FW13 falls behind.
fw13 - https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/15773121
MacBook Air - https://browser.geekbench.com/macs/macbook-air-15-inch-2025
There is a gulf between the two and that’s what is sacrificed on the FW13. I m not saying someone can’t decide to prioritize modularity, storage, and repairability over performance, but there is a ‘price’ to making that choice.
This is a more comparable benchmark (it's the current FW13): https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/15769561
The MBA has about a 20% better score on the single thread perf benchmark. It's better, but is it that significant ?
Especially as it has no active cooling. By the time thermal throttling kicks in the FW13 will keep chugging along. The MBP solves that issue, albeit at significantly higher price range.
Then again, the amount of RAM the FW13 can take will also help in many cases.
Right, I was going to bring up real world over geekbench.
For example, in the real world, you’ve gotta run most PC games using CrossOver on Mac with significant performance implications or have them not work at all, where modern Linux/x86 is nearly fully PC game compatible, and the AMD integrated graphics are much more game-optimized than Apple’s.
The arbitrary spec limits on Apple systems also get in your way. Want 4TB of storage? Want more than 32GB of RAM? You have to upgrade to a MacBook Pro even if you don’t want all the other features and expense of the Pro model.
Is all you want a USB-C port on the right side or an SD card reader? Pony up the extra $600 for the 14” MacBook Pro.
A Dodge Neon SRT4 is faster than a lot of BMWs but it doesn’t make it a better car to live with.
This is Apple’s price anchor in action. The base price is essentially not the real price. Anyone who can use the capability of their chips to their fullest will need more RAM and storage. Even casual users will find 256GB tight sometimes. Goodbye, “Optimize storage.”
In practical use, there really isn’t anything my system can’t do that a MacBook Air can besides battery stamina. Since moving to Linux/x86 gaming has become way easier (goodbye CrossOver). Programming and containerization is way better on Linux, and I finally have the RAM for it.
I acknowledge Apple’s lead in their chips but that’s only one component of the experience, and it’s not so far ahead that it’s a major detriment to choose something else.
I don't want to use macOS. (And no, I'm not going to tinker with a brand new Linux port on unsupported hardware.)
There are all sorts of other things that don't show up on a spec sheet so easily that Framework isn't competitive on.
It has a diving board trackpad, significantly worse speakers, no zonal dimming on the display (comparing to MacBook Pro, which higher end specs of the Framework cost as much as), general poor body rigidity, an aggressive fan curve that ramps up audibly on short loads (the Air doesn't even have a fan and the Pro can handle a couple mins of all-core 100% load without becoming audible), etc etc.
As much as I dislike Apple's business practices it's undeniable that other vendors are generally selling significantly cheaper feeling devices at the same price point. These are not niche things, you feel the cheapness on the Framework with every touchpad click, short bursty CPU task, HDR video, audio playback, heck even picking it up off the desk.
Trackpad isn’t as good, true. But it’s not a bad trackpad, either, and I would counter that other operating systems that aren’t macOS support external normal mice a lot better. On macOS I needed to install a separate paid program (Smooze Pro) to make the scroll wheel of an external mouse normal for gaming or other purposes. I would be very interested to try the haptic trackpad on the Lenovo ThinkPad X9 15 Aura Edition.
macOS assumes you’re using a trackpad to a fault, to the point where I prefer a trackpad on macOS desktop systems. That’s an operating system choice that a conspiracy theorist might tell you is Apple’s way of artificially differentiating their patent-protected trackpad hardware products. If Apple just used a normal mouse and designed the OS around it like everyone else they couldn’t sell you the advantage of their fancy trackpad, since we all know a dedicated mouse is more precise and quick, so that situation is yet another crazy expensive vendor lock-in accessory along with the Touch ID keyboard. Over $300 if you buy both for your desk setup!
Also remember that this is a laptop for programming…how often am I using my mouse?
Worse speakers, this is true, though it’s improved by installing Easy Effects and running a Framework profile. I use my AirPods Pro 3 on the Framework and they work great with it. MacBook speakers sound really good but they are still laptop speakers.
I don’t agree that the Framework body rigidity is poor. Do you own one or are you just assuming it’s poor? It’s very comparable to a MacBook, the screen has slightly more flex but the keyboard deck and core system is almost identically rigid.
Zonal dimming is only available on the MacBook Pro models that cost $600 more than my Framework, which doesn’t include the cost of upgrading them to equivalent 2TB/32GB configuration. So realistically, for my needs I would have had to spend double to get zonal dimming, which doesn’t benefit my programming work at all, though it would presumably benefit gaming. But gaming is my secondary use case.
Also, if Framework ever makes a micro-LED screen in the future, I’ll be able to replace it for a very reasonable cost. They have already released a display upgrade and surely will upgrade it again in the future as more panels become available.
You can customize the fan curve of a Framework! But the fan noise was never a consideration of mine. I’m not an audio producer.
https://github.com/TamtamHero/fw-fanctrl
You’re saying I’m constantly burdened by this computer but you’re not really considering how I’m using the laptop. I don’t care much for HDR content and barely watch television, fan noise hasn’t been an issue, this laptop is almost a full pound less heavy than my previous 14” MacBook Pro and almost identical in weight to a MacBook Air, so I don’t understand how picking it up is a worse experience.
You didn’t even mention the weak webcam on the Framework! It sucks! But I don’t use it, just like I didn’t use my MacBook webcam. I’m a programmer remember? I don’t go on camera. That’s for sales bros. FaceTime on iPhone is better than the MacBook anyway.
> Also remember that this is a laptop for programming…how often am I using my mouse?
All the time?
Some of us have embraced IDE and graphical tooling in desktop systems since the 1990, after computers with desktop environments became affordable and we weren't stuck with text only interfaces.
I use a graphical IDE. That still means my hands are on the keyboard 90% of the time. Graphical IDEs still use a lot of keyboard shortcuts.
And like I said, the trackpad isn’t bad, it’s just not the world’s best trackpad.
To reiterate further, macOS demands you use the trackpad for gestures that aren’t demanded in other operating systems. They want you to buy their $150 trackpad even though you’re sitting at a desk and could easily use a $20-50 third party mouse.
I also am a programmer, and I care about all of these things on my laptop. I used my trackpad to click reply on this webpage, that's not a rare thing!
If you ever have a meeting where multiple people huddle around a laptop, that uses speakers, webcam, and microphone, and the MacBook does so much better in that scenario. We have interrupted meetings to swap from a Framework 16 (old CTO's laptop) to my MacBook Pro because participants simply couldn't hear those of us slightly further away from the laptop!
Zonal dimming is an advantage whenever you have black areas on the screen, and good fan tuning is an advantage if you want to compile some changes during a meeting without thinking "this task will turn my laptop into a jet engine and distract everyone else".
If you don't care about these things, then you can find way cheaper devices than the Framework that are cost competitive on core specs. Let's get some Framework pricing as a datum, Framework will sell me the AI 350 and 2.8K display for $1939CAD, it has no RAM, no SSD, no charger, no ports... if I add 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD, charger, and 2xUSB-C, 1xHDMI, 1xUSB-A, we're looking at $2403CAD.
If I don't care about the less measurable components, why would I not buy something like this $400USD (~$550CAD) laptop [1] another poster in this thread found which also has an AI 350, 16GB RAM, and a 512GB SSD? I can buy four of these laptops for the price of the Framework and still have some cash left over! If I need more RAM I'm sure I can find a similarly cheapo laptop with a SODIMM by actually googling myself.
I think the reality is both you and I do care about these other parts, just maybe with a different minimum acceptable quality. But even inside PC land Framework is not competitive. Higher-end X1 Carbons have haptic trackpads at the same price point as Framework is offering diving boards. Across the market there are OLEDs for less money than Framework is charging for LCDs.
Personally, I don't care about trackpad alone so much, merely that the pointing device situation be acceptable. When programming, I type a lot and then do a few small mouse actions (e.g. expand some segment on a docs webpage, or mouse around some GUI to test the feature I have been building out). With a haptic trackpad, I can move my thumb from the spacebar to the top of the trackpad which is just below it and do my mouse actions without significant hand movement. This is not possible with a diving board design as the top of the trackpad is not clickable. A pointing stick is absolutely an acceptable solution to this problem, but Framework also does not offer those, again despite price-competitive offerings from, say, Lenovo offering it.
Let's briefly look at Lenovo's website. I can spec out a ThinkPad P14s Gen 6 here in Canada from Lenovo's website [2] with a 120Hz OLED screen, trackpoint, Ryzen AI 350, 1x16GB SODIMM and 512GB NVMe for $1529CAD, that's a fully working computer for less than the barebones Framework, with a better display and pointing device situation! I can use the empty second SODIMM port with a single 48GB stick and get 64GB, and stick the NVMe in an external enclosure to use as an external SSD, and deck it out with whatever market-rate drive and RAM I can get.
The Framework is broadly uncompetitive even if you won't consider a MacBook.
[1] https://slickdeals.net/f/18984394-hp-omnibook-5-16-fhd-ips-r...
[2] https://www.lenovo.com/ca/en/configurator/cto/index.html?bun...
Like I said, Framework 13 trackpad isn’t bad, it’s just not the best in the world. It’s not any worse than the traditional trackpads that are on Lenovo systems (but I’d love to try the haptic one on the X9 Aura Edition).
This $2400 CAD price point is pure fantasy to me because that’s not what I paid. I paid $800 for a DIY system then about $200 or $300 for RAM and storage (USD).
The ThinkPad P14 you specced out is not significantly more competitive. I’ll use my US website prices to compare. The base model starts at $1044. It comes with a Ryzen AI 340 which is a far worse chip for integrated graphics than my 7640u, it’s like 60% of the speed of the 7640u graphics. The display in that model is the base model display, not a 120Hz OLED, similar specs to the Framework. You have to add $10 for fingerprint reader then I have to still buy a new stick of RAM and a bigger SSD.
I also tried a Lenovo T14 in store and felt like it had way too much deck flex. I had no idea if the P series is the same but Lenovo felt plasticky. Framework is an aluminum chassis and the keyboard deck flex is about as good as it gets before you sign your life away to Apple.
The $500 cheapo spec laptops aren’t as nice as the Framework! I swear FW haters just insist that the hardware quality is budget tier and it must suck since it’s modular and that it’s not a premium-class system. But that is just not true. The Lenovo T14 felt cheap in comparison. If I get a $500 cheapo laptop I’m getting even more plastic and flex.
The ThinkPad T14 keyboard was not good enough for me. The Framework 13 has better keyboard. I like it better than my previous MacBook Pro! A $500 cheapo laptop isn’t going to satisfy me there.
In terms of Linux support, Framework is premium. The company itself focuses on it more than Lenovo. Hardware firmware gets updated automatically within Linux, and there’s a dedicated community surrounding it, which you won’t get on some random $500 HP laptop.
Maybe Lenovo offers an equivalent value or sometimes even a better value when there’s a sale. For my needs Apple couldn’t even get close to the kind of price I paid for what I got.
One more sidenote, you brought up buying the power supply separate, which I didn’t have to do because I already own an Anker Prime charger that I’ve used with my previous MacBook for being a superior travel solution compared to OEM. My monitor on my desk already provides USB-C PD. So really, if I buy a laptop that includes one it’s just e-waste that I don’t need.
> Framework starts so far behind in performance ...
Honest question and not meant to flame anyone. What benchmark are you referring to regarding performance; spec sheets or your tools are not working correctly or working slowly?
Just trying to understand users needs in upgrading. I have some new MacBooks and some old linux laptops. They both equally work just fine for what I need to do, and I am starting to question the need for me to update to a new MacBook M* chipset moving forward.
It's more a matter of effiency and battery life, and that's mostly due to Linux more than inherent to the Framework or its hardware (try running Asahi Linux on an M MacBook and just notice your battery life be cut in half).
I love my M1 Pro MacBook and I wish I could have the same efficiency when running Linux but I can't.
My Framework runs faster, but a lot hotter, louder and with a lot less battery life. But I feel like I'm supporting a good company, a good cause, and I love that I can do software updates without fearing that it fucked everything up like every major macOS release does.
> I love my M1 Pro MacBook and I wish I could have the same efficiency when running Linux but I can't.
No doubt. And don't forget Apple nailed the trackpad experience too. But I seldom need to use my laptop for 20 hours away from an A/C outlet. It's nice, but not necessary for me.
With that being said, I personally am going to start abandoning the Apple ecosystem with each device that NEEDS to be replaced. I'm tired of features being forced into each software cycle, and I don't want any AI on my devices.
I'm going to lean into Framework (or keep my old T480 alive) and GrapheneOS when needed.
I have been thinking this same thing… Goodluck! I would like my own onprem AI tho. And home assistant devices
I have Home Assistant running on an old Raspberry Pi and it is fabulous. Way quicker than HomeKit, and easier to tinker with, along with all kinds of integrations.
That's a bit interesting, because IME linux on my framework 13 (7840u, 61wh battery) is surprisingly very solid. Fans almost never spin up (even with a windows KVM plus lot of firefox tabs), and I can get 6-8 hours easy, and 10+ hours of battery life if I push it (without even using power saving mode), on native linux (Fedora 40).
Windows 10 in comparison gives maybe 4-5 hours of battery plus lots of fan usage (but lesser ram usage often).
We bought all of ours for the idea of not being glued to the Apple ecosystem, and that reality has provided the performance our group requires. Each unit is the top of the line i7 and they last all day - any further requirements for even faster processing is handled by the server farm upstream. Supposedly Apple knows best about performance and longetivity by enforcing clamshell mode for users that want to use only an externally connected display.
> You really do have to buy it for the idea rather than the reality.
There is enormous historical irony in this comment. The Apple Distortion Field was an observable delusion for decades before Apple's ARM silicon.
That said, CPU performance is just one criterion in choosing a laptop, and Framework's modularity is a greater idea than anything Apple has ever done for re-use.
Will this work in reality? Will it be expensive to replace all the parts, and will the case be able to cool new CPUs, and will I have to get a new mainboard, etc?
When a $39 hinge kit costs $70 after shipping, it sounds unlikely I'll be buying replacement parts from Framework, and there's really no 3rd party marketplace either.
I can't even recall when I last needed USB-A, literally everything I have uses USB-C (or bluetooth for mouse and keyboard). What do you use it for?
Current items in my possession that are still in use and use USB-A
* keyboard
* mouse dongle
* webcam
* microphone
* mouse charging cable
* smart watch charging cable
* SATA hard drive dock
* 32GB and 64GB USB memory sticks
Things that use USB-C
* new SD card reader
* new headphones dongle
* smart phone charging cable
Some of the above could maybe be replaced with a USB-C equivalent, but they are still working and I'm still using them. Why waste money and create waste replacing them?
I bought a USB-C hub so I can slowly migrate to the current format as I replace the old devices.
I mean I have a perfectly good USB-A hub that is still working and doesn't need replaced either ;)
4-ports -- supports webcam, microphone, keyboard with no issues.
USB-A is our second most popular Expansion Card after USB-C (and before HDMI), so certainly people are using it for something!
It's funny. I think a lot of more software-y people just don't see the need for a lot of Framework features. I deal with a lot of hardware (as a hobbyist and a hardware engineer) and I've seen every USB standard connector in the last week.
I also own something like three different Framework products (16, 13 and Desktop) and gifted two more (13 and Desktop) to people. Really, apart from the fit issues on 16 spacers and perhaps the speakers, the only really unforgivable issue is the size of the expansion cards (too small for interesting hardware like a good LTE modem).
Software-y people also have a way of being deliberately and performatively obtuse about their technology choices. This person's proclamation about not using any USB-A peripherals hits the same as when they feign surprise that any non-luddite would still have a use for printers, scanners, and fax machines.
Perhaps because Framework users are a bit more geeky and are more likely to use older hardware that still has USB-A?
USB-A is like what DB9 was. Easy to use, easy to plug-in, used on most devices. But there comes a point in time where we move on to the next connector, which is USB-C.
Most of my hardware is younger than ten years and everything has USB-C. I had a night light with micro-USB still but that was one of the last devices with a legacy port.
I'm not trying to sit in my arm chair and act like I know better, but do you think it's possible people order those just in case?
I have a stash of USB keyboards and mice in my closet, gathered from various sources for free. They're all USB-A because they're like 15 years old. The SD card reader I got somewhere ages ago is USB-A. My Xbox 360 controller is USB-A. So I got a USB-A module. Shrug.
Hi it's me from the past. I daily drive a VGA screen and a USB-A hub that connects my USB-A mouse and USB-A keyboard. My µSD-card reader uses USB-A. Ethernet adapter (for when I need a second NIC) is also USB-A but it came with an adapter to C so I have a choice there. All USB sticks I've ever seen are A, as well as all external hard drives. My charging cables are predominantly USB-A to micro, and nowadays I also need C for my phone. It's a bit annoying to need that extra C charging cable everywhere after we had already standardized on micro (except for Apple), but at least there's one standard now (xkcd.com/927) after the current devices die
Edit: forgot the printer. I connect it via USB-A on demand. /edit.
My laptop (bought this year) charges via a DC barrel jack, afaik because USB-C doesn't deliver enough power for peak usage. Buying a little HDMI-VGA converter was a lot cheaper than throwing a perfectly good screen away. My keyboard, mouse, and other peripherals also simply still work, seems silly to replace them just to get a C variant when 700-1300€ laptops have 1 or 2 C ports and always 2 A ports (I happen to be up-to-date on that, at least, because I helped someone select a new laptop ereyesterday)
I don't know what I'd need more than one C port for but I'm very happy that there is more than one A port on my laptop. Add in the standard set of 3.5mm jack, HDMI, ethernet, card reader, and charging, and you're already at more ports than even the new Framework 16 can physically fit in its frame, let alone nerd ports like serial or a second ethernet port. I considered buying a double-priced Framework earlier this year for the linux support and upgradeability (I really support their goal and would pay that premium if it were a suitable system) but this is one of the main reasons it just doesn't work for me: I'm actually a power user that regularly uses these connections and more
> My laptop (bought this year) charges via a DC barrel jack, afaik because USB-C doesn't deliver enough power for peak usage
I've got a Dell 120W USB-C charger from a 2017 Dell laptop, and I think you can go up to 240W now.
Now the highest power is a bit of a compatibility nightmare. I also have a 60W framework charger but it will only charge the Dell at 15W because that's the maximum mode that both the Dell and Framework charger support in common.
But given the barrel connectors are usually only compatible with the exact laptop they're sold with, that's probably an improvement.
I got a couple of type-A cards for my AMD FW13 and generally keep one loaded in the laptop for connecting to random junk like flash drives, charging cables for all sorts of widgets (like my bike light or head lamp), etc. I get dramatically more use out of the type-C cards. And in the quite-rare cases where I really need all of the type-C ports, I'll just eject the type-A card and plug directly into the chassis without the interposer at all rather than carry an extra type-C with me.
That said, there have been a few things that have been a bit less than deluxe on my FW13:
- The touchpad mechanical click is just not that good. It is too sensitive to exact pressure and touch location and I find holding it down and dragging to be excessively difficult compared to all other touchpads I've ever used.
- The delete key seems to oxidize and needs a bunch of hard mashing to get it to become responsive. No, it's not sticky or dirty.
- The air intake on the bottom is highly prone to getting blocked, mostly by my legs.
- There's no BIOS option to turn down the brightness or disable altogether the charging status LEDs, and I find that when I travel and can't keep the laptop in a separate room that it's bright enough to interrupt sleep. I've taped over them, but the light leakage from other crevices is still sufficient to be at least mildly annoying. The translucent Ethernet adapter card also acts like a lightbulb.
- The laptop ramps its current consumption from type-C very quickly and seems like it overshoots its target a little bit, and so it is the only device I have that trips out the OCP on some of my bricks.
- There's no BIOS option to artificially limit the charging power, and so I often trip the OCP on aircraft if my battery is not fully charged before plugging in. I don't want to carry a secondary small brick just to use on planes.
- The LCD backlight uniformity and color quality are mediocre, but for my use case I just don't really care that much. For me, this is a portable technical productivity machine and not an art studio, so it doesn't matter.
- The LCD backlight intensity curve is pretty bad. I very-frequently want to have a brightness in-between the lowest and second-lowest settings. I would love to get more control at the bottom and less at the top. It feels like it's linear when it should be logarithmic.
- The speakers suck. So does the volume control. I very rarely go above 10% volume and frequently don't have sufficient control resolution at the bottom. Anything above about 14-16% volume causes something to distort and other stuff to rattle. Luckily I mostly don't consume media, so this is rarely a real problem. But it is truly atrocious.
All that said, I'm generally a pretty happy camper. I look forward to continued improvements from the company over the years.
Could you reach out to support about the delete key? There was a small window of time where a burr on a batch of Input Cover lattices resulted in wearing down the keyboard membrane in that spot: https://support.frame.work
Thanks for the feedback on LED brightness and airplane OCP. That should be something we can improve in firmware.
Thanks, I'll do that! I figured I've had the machine for a while and it was unlikely to be covered by warranty, so I didn't consider reaching out to support. Instead I assumed I'd buy a new keyboard if it ever annoyed me too much.
At some point I actually considered poking around the firmware and seeing about fixing up the PD behavior. But it never quite rose in priority above my many other projects.
I absolutely love that the embedded controller firmware and much of the motherboard schematics are available. It makes it possible to do these little projects should I gather the gumption. That, plus easy and reasonably priced replacement parts availability and easy OS compatibility, are why I got the Framework.
Seriously, why are touchpads not a solved problem yet?
Why are so many machines (including some fairly high-end models) shipping with worse touchpads than Apple were shipping over a decade ago?
The actual touch part of the FW touchpad, including tap to click, works just fine. I might be a weirdo for liking mechanical click for dragging (and I dislike the Macbook tactile fakery; it does not fool my finger).
Even limiting discussion to "routine consumer use": Mouse and keyboard dongles, USB sticks for copying things off the scanner or 3D printer or whatever. Joysticks and game controllers still live in drawers and come out every once in a while. These things are still Just Not Made in USB-C except in a handful of weird devices.
And even then, I'm not re-buying junk that works. I just swapped for a webcam that has a C cable, and ironically it's being used with an adapter because the integrated hub on the KVM switch is A-only.
Also dev tasks like flashing bootable ChromeOS and linux images pretty regularly, connecting to a Flyswatter JTAG adapter, UART adapters, etc...
USB-A was actually a really great plug and objectively works better for a lot of applications than the tiny C connector.
I use USB-A for mouse and keyboard, so I need at least two ports. Both are much better with a cord.
Something about bluetooth keyboards... they're just awful. Laggy and glitchy things.
What I have plugged in via USB-A right now: Ethernet adapter; Generic gamepad; Logitech wireless keyboard receiver; Sony waterproof Walkman cradle.
Most flash drives and wired mice/keyboards are still USB-A.
And people have huge piles of charging cables that are USB-A to micro/mini USB or USB-C.
I assume you are talking about legacy devices? I haven't purchased a keyboard in the past ten years with USB-A. Everything is USB-C for charging/data and Bluetooth.
I think new devices are primarily USB-A too? All my keyboards and mice are A, also the one I bought this year: https://perixx.com/products/periboard-535
Wow. A device in 2025 with a non-detachable USB-A cable? That sounds like a horrible design decision from both a repairability and future-proofing standpoint. My keyboard has a USB-C port on the side so you can plug in whatever cable you want, A or C, long, short, curled, braided. It even connects to my phone without dongles.
Yeah I agree a detachable cable would've been better. The keyboard itself is very good though, I'm quite happy with it!
Bluetooth is too flaky for such critical inputs. Dongles will usually bring higer polling, less interference/2.4Ghz connectivity and lower load on the host system. Sadly most are USB-A plugs.
Bluetooth being cnstantly used for audio and so many other things as well might also be at play ?
Isn't that more due to the Bluetooth hardware used and implementation on the OS side? On macOS I never had flakyness with Bluetooth keyboards but on Windows my experience was significantly worse.
It might as well be, though Bluetooth is kinda hit or miss in general IMHO.
On Macos, first party peripherals have of course pretty good connectivity (is it even straight Bluetooth?) but it's not perfect either, and third party ones have a tougher time.
I wondered how much it was just me, apparently we were dozens: https://www.reddit.com/r/MacOS/comments/17659mx/sonoma_bluet...
I still do have a few USB-A: Yubikey, mouse receiver, Streamdeck, USB sticks, webcam, old HDD hard drives I use for backups...
I guess I could, but I would rather not upgrade all of those to USB-C and I really tired of having to carry dongles everywhere.
I even like that if I were consistently using HDMI, I could actually just put an HDMI extension card into my laptop and still not need a dongle. It's customizable to my usage at any point in the laptop's life.
I don't care about the upgradeability or repairability. I think that people espousing these points need a reality check - other laptops aren't that bad for repairability (I have always had Alienwares, and have had no trouble sourcing and installing parts in laptops even 10+ years old), and piecemeal upgrades really don't make sense in the long term. Framework also seems to have attracted a certain type of activist that I won't get into here (they're very opinionated about the company's donations).
I've ordered a Framework 16, though. Not for any of that crap, but just to be able to customise it. That's what I love. They should really lean in to this.
Once the eco and repairability nonsense has faded - and it will, because it's marketing fluff - you still have a laptop that is extremely versatile from a company that doesn't hate you. It's not bloated with spyware by default, the checkout process isn't full of dark patterns, they support and encourage you to use it how you want to use it.
Lean in. Make more modules. Make better modules. Assist the community more with new and varied modules. It's crazy that eGPU and dual USB modules are primarily driven by amateur forum volunteers rather than being major priorities for Framework's engineers. Design a low-profile mechanical keyboard, I don't care for your excuses. Give us proper touchpad options with buttons. Keyboard modules with scroll wheels and panning for CAD.
These are what makes Framework special. In 3 or 4 years it's going to be thrown on the same pile as all of my other old laptops, never to be upgraded or repaired again. I don't care for that. I just want a laptop customised for my needs over that time, rather than fighting against the antagonistic whims of Dell et al.
On repairability, other laptops are mostly fine if you don't need any guarantee or official parts. That's a big ask IMHO.
Especially for the keyboard: 2~3 years of heavy use will have a clear impact, and I'd hate to get a replacement second hand (so already with a limited life span) or from a random vendor I have no idea if it will fry the motherboard.
Otherwise I was surprised by Framework's keyboard supporting QMK. That's the kind of nice things that make them standout IMHO.
This, please help me ditch my old Haswell Latitude, touchpads without buttons (or even better, 3 buttons) are horrid things!
I'm also a laptop weirdo and I've had a Framework 13 with the Ryzen 7 motherboard since May of 2022. I run Ubuntu (currently 25.10) on it.
Its a good laptop, but not a great laptop. Its very light and compact (very important to me), and its been reliable, at least since the AMD GPU driver issues were resolved. The matte screen is fine, battery life is adequate, and the CPU meets my needs as a hobby developer.
Overall, I'm happy with it and I expect to use it for many years.
Its biggest issues are the touchpad (it's a diving board design, so you have to always click in the bottom 1/3 of the pad) and the quality of the case. The case flexes slightly if the computer is on an uneven surface, or if you are holding it in one hand by the corner while typing/mousing with your other hand, and this can cause the mechanics of the touchpad to jam. I've trained myself to tap instead of click, but that's me adapting to bad hardware.
I wish the case were more solid, even though I know this would add to the expense, size and weight. I expect to eventually replace every part of this laptop except the case, so I would appreciate more durability.
I tried a coworker’s, I was a bit shocked how poor the case is. Everything flexes badly, especially the keyboard.
I was considering one, but definitely not worth it. I can get a ThinkPad for less and it’s much better quality.
Is it a 13 or 16? I have a Intel gen 12 framework 13 and it feels solid except the display is a little wobbly. The original display tended to swing in a heavy wind a bit much, but they improved the hinge at some point.
13.
The entire laptop can be easily and worryingly flexed by hand when closed.
The keyboard in particular flexes by more than a millimetre when pressing on a key or in between them.
It seems ridiculous when the much cheaper and thinner MacBook Air is far stiffer with no noticeable keyboard flex.
i'm not sure what parent is talking about, i have a fw13 and the chassis and trackpad are effectively identical to macbook's in look-and-feel
Also, something weird:
I looked up my purchase using my Framework account to confirm my purchase date, and it lists my mother board as System: Intel® Core™ i7-1260P. Sloppy record keeping like this doesn't inspire confidence.
It is definitely not, and /proc/cpuinfo confirms it:
model name : AMD Ryzen 7 7840U w/ Radeon 780M Graphics
Could you submit a support ticket around the order record issue? We certainly want to determine what happened there: https://frame.work/support/
Done! Thanks for coming here to read the tough hacker new comments. I really like what you're doing with Framework, and I hope you are able to keep iterating and improving.
----
Update: Sorry, there is no mistake! The i7 order was my original pre-order, which I canceled. My order is correctly recorded.
was close to getting one, more for worry free linux compat than for repair, but ended up with a mba instead for now mostly because of the touchpad. someday i will have my perfect linux laptop. i saw the framework youtube video where they failed trying to make a new giant haptic touchpad. don't do this just copy the mac. after you copy the mac you can try to improve it maybe.
> Its biggest issues are the touchpad (it's a diving board design, so you have to always click in the bottom 1/3 of the pad)
Wait, are you saying it's not possible to change settings so that I can
- single finger tap anywhere for a left click,
- two finger tap anywhere for a right click.
No, it is. That's how I use mine.
I work international (somewhat of a digital nomad) so perhaps I’m an outlier in my usage. I have an M1 MacBook Pro that I bought new at release. I can’t replace the memory or storage. But so far I didn’t need to do that.
In case it breaks, I walk to my nearby electronics store and purchase a new MacBook Pro. With Time Machine restore I am up an running within an hour. The M1 goes onto the pile of stuff to repair later. And this is where the international part plays a role, in nearly any city in the western world I can grab a new MacBook Pro within an hour.
My day rate is significant enough that downtime is expensive. Not working for a week waiting for Framework to send parts is not an option for me. I can get next day delivery for memory and an SSD through Amazon in most of Europe but that is still a day rate wasted.
> In case it breaks, I walk to my nearby electronics store and purchase a new MacBook Pro. > Not working for a week waiting for Framework to send parts is not an option for me.
You are comparing apples and oranges here. Apple is internationally available because it is 40 years old and very successful. There's no reason why Framework cannot be that successful in 10 years time.
Furthermore, when Framework might become that successful, no need to buy a full new laptop, you can just buy the stuff that failed and move on. And if that does happen, then experience with Framework promises to be much better than experience with Macbook.
> There's no reason why Framework cannot be that successful in 10 years time.
They don't have the resources nor is their scope large enough. Could that change in 10 years? Maybe, but probably not. I'm not even sure it's something they would want to replicate. Retail costs a lot of money and the benefits to it are quite limited. Similarly a service network that would be comparable to one of the larger PC manufacturers would also be very expensive.
> Furthermore, when Framework might become that successful, no need to buy a full new laptop, you can just buy the stuff that failed and move on. And if that does happen, then experience with Framework promises to be much better than experience with Macbook.
The experience you're describing is still involving a person opening up their laptop to replace whatever the failed part is, assuming they even know what the failed part is. I'm qualified to do those sort of diagnostics on a computer and depending on what it is, it'd still be more downtime than going to buy/getting a loaner laptop in most cases.
I'm not saying people can't learn that but I know that people won't.
Spares kept on hand with the base image is industry standard IT practice, and it even skips the Apple store. When the day rate is high enough to talk about it, they still have to result to ordering just in time.
They’re comparing them as if they were making a laptop purchasing decision today.
Sure, they could theoretically be a good buy in 10 years.
Sorry! So many questions. That electronics store won't sell RAM and SSD sticks? Which cities have stores that can sell Macbooks but not RAM & SSD? Like why wait for Amazon next day delivery if your SSD or RAM dies? Why would you wait for Framework to ship parts, unless it's the main board. Even then, wouldn't it be much cheaper to just plug in the SSD into an M.2 slot (of any generic new/old laptop) and rsync your way to productivity in pretty much the same time a Time Machine restore would take?
Not just RAM and SSD. Displays can break. Power ports can break. USB-C ports can break. Keyboards can break. PCBs can break. And those take time to ship if you have a Dell, HP, Framework or even an Apple machine. I like being able to walk to a nearby store and grab a new MacBook Pro in case I quickly need a new machine to continue my work. My clients typically hire me for short periods and they need me to work at full capacity for that time period. Waiting a week while Framework ships me a new display is not an option.
A Time Machine restore has never failed me. You are fully operational after the backup is restored. Syncing your data onto an SSD via M2 isn't comparable.
Your initial comment made it seem like, the repairable options are just so incovenient to the point where buying a new machine was the solution. So my questions were mainly around why that would be the case. But, it seems like your requirements are pretty stringent to the point nothing other than a Time Machine backup compatible machine would make sense.
OP could make it more generic by removing the Time Machine mandate, and instead using any of a raft of cloud-based backup options. (e.g. I use pCloud, and my approach to a new system is equally quick and pain free.)
Then it just comes down to the time delta between buying a new Mac from a shop in a city (assuming you want one of the immediately-available specifications) versus waiting for Framework parts of be delivered. Framework could optimise this if it was worth their while by having a limited number of common replacement items at fast-shipping fulfilment centres.
However, in reality it sounds less like a genuine question, and more like someone justifying their decision to buy a Mac post-hoc with a range of specific requirements only a Mac could meet.
This is why I have a solid desktop and then just RDP into it.
The laptop can then be whatever and if it breaks or gets stolen it's not a big deal. I don't need an expensive laptop and all my stuff is on the desktop so nothing to lose.
Does require a somewhat decent internet connection but nothing special.
The way all of the backup/sync/restore is so dialed in on MacOS/iOS/iPadOS at this point is pretty hard to beat. You get a performant fat client that you can treat like an interchangeable thin client as the need arises.
Exactly. I have a high-speed USB-C disk connected to my machine and an off-site backup. The first is for accidentally deleted files and to be able to quickly recover. The other is more of an actual backup. My iPhone and MacBook are indeed expendable devices at this point.
How about buying (and installing) two cheap laptops, say used Thinkpads (or Framework!?), and then backing up $HOME (and maybe list of installed packages) at one's convenience? These are nowadays light enough to carry around when traveling with luggage. If deemed too heavy, at least a Thinkpad likely is on sale closeby and `dd`ing an ISO image, installing the missing packages and copying $HOME should not take too long.
A bit annoying to lug around for a nomad. I'm in a similar situation where I travel a lot with my mac laptop. For me, the ease of just going to a store and buying one if my current fails me is all that matters.
All the stores I can get to within a reasonable time period stock ISO keyboards instead of ANSI, and I've never really warmed up to those. So I'm stuck with next-day even for macs.
Agreed, though for the sake of ergonomics I hardly use the built-in keyboard and almost always have an external keyboard connected.
That's how monopolies are perpetuated.
>You can't change the RAM on laptops now. >You can't change the SSD on laptops now.
I literally just brought a laptop 3 weeks ago and I've already upgraded both of those. It's a newer model with an RTX GPU.
I think framework has potential, but it's going to be a decade to see how things pan out. Will I be able to use the same mainboard for a decade?
So far what I'm seeing is a laptop brand which charges between 50% and 100% more with strange customer support issues and a limited service network.
If you're thinking about reducing waste , buy a refurbished Thinkpad.
> Will I be able to use the same mainboard for a decade?
Maybe, but you can actually just upgrade the mainboard. Framework has already done that cycle a couple of times. And they made sure the mainboard can work without a battery (not exactly a high bar, but it's better than most), so your old mainboard can pop into a small case and get a second life as a NUC
We’ve done seven different versions of Mainboard for Framework Laptop 13 already!
* 11th Gen Intel Core
* 12th Gen Intel Core
* Chromebook Edition
* 13th Gen Intel Core
* Ryzen 7040 Series
* Intel Core Ultra Series 1
* Ryzen AI 300 Series
There are a couple of third party boards from DeepComputing too.
The mainboards typically cost as much as a new laptop.
What really excites me is the prospect of 3rd party mainboards and other components. This ecosystem is still just getting started though.
It seems like this is the beta product, I'll wait for the finished one.
They don't?
Ryzen 340 mainboard: $450 https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-ai300?v=FRANTE0005
Ryzen 340 laptop: $1100 https://frame.work/products/laptop13-amd-ai300/configuration...
Yeah it's certainly the single most expensive component, but it's still cheaper than a whole new laptop and, more to the point, less waste than a whole new laptop
Your comparing Framework to itself.
https://slickdeals.net/f/18984394-hp-omnibook-5-16-fhd-ips-r...
HP OmniBook 5 16 with an Ryzen 350 for 439$.
This is actually less than the framework mainboard for a full laptop with a better processor.
This actually
But the rest of that machine is hot garbage.
I don't see any clear issues with it.
I brought my friend an HP because their PC wasn't booting for someone reason and it's more than enough.
If we really want to compare, I bet a refurbished Thinkpad would probably be about the same price as the typical Framework mainboard of similar performance.
If you like framework, thats great, but it's not really about saving money.
> If we really want to compare, I bet a refurbished Thinkpad would probably be about the same price as the typical Framework mainboard of similar performance.
And a used laptop is cheaper still! Which is all entirely irrelevant to the original point and the goal posts aren't even in view anymore. Finding cheaper products that aren't equivalent isn't exactly hard. If the singular thing you want is CPU performance then a laptop is a bad idea in the first place.
No they don't, they start at a few hundred. They'd all be an upgrade for my bought-at-launch £750/800ish Framework 13.
An upgrade like that does mean I need new (DDR5) RAM too though, which tightens the gap a bit (or a byte, at the moment).
7 times, for the Fw13.
I think laptop gamers, and developers that use gaming laptops for work machines are somewhat niche (and I'm in that niche).
Because PC gamers often buy desktops. And console gamers buy consoles while handheld gamers buy handhelds and smartphone gamers...
Then there are other kinds of laptop users... the various Macbook users from the lightweight travel Air to the beefy desktop replacement 16" Macbook Pro, and the Windows business laptop users, and the Linux laptop users.
(I think we'd all do well to remember the variety in computers and computer users...)
So yeah, I've rarely bought anything but a gaming laptop that could easily be upgraded via RAM or SSD, and when I've bought non-upgradeable laptops (a tiny Asus 2-in-1 touchscreen) I found it just wasn't for me and I ended up selling it.
My favorite gaming laptops... Lenovo Legion 5 Pro, Acer Nitro 16. My spouse uses a Legion 5 Pro. My sister uses my 5+ year old Legion 5. They've all been a combination of good or great screen, great keyboard, good hardware, pretty quiet except when cranking up for demanding games, and so far all have been reliable, upgradeable, etc. We don't tend to use them on battery, but I've found that they tend to do 4-5 hours easily for basic usage. I wouldn't expect them to do well at all when pulling 100+ W for gaming. (My sister had an older Nitro and the quality was lacking, but I've been impressed by my 2023 model.)
Another happy Legion 5 Pro user here. It's not terrible on battery, but not great either. I usually carry one of those 26Mah battery banks in my bag just in case.
I love my thinkpad, wrote up my experience with the Thinkpad T480 last year:
https://maxrozen.com/replacing-my-macbook-m1-with-thinkpad-t...
and a quick buyers guide here:
https://maxrozen.com/getting-your-own-good-enough-laptop-for...
Lenovo has fantastic recent refurbs. It's a bit of a game, but you can find some for around 400$ or less.
My big beef with Macs is I need BIG ssds. If I want to get a 4TB SSD on a Macbook it starts at around 3000$. Recently I purchased a laptop with 2 SSD slots, although disappointingly only one is easy to access.
I'm tempted to go to Microcenter and tell them to replace the stock SSD with a 4TB( the stock SSD is the one behind a difficult to remove heat sink), and then I'd put another 4 tb ssd. Alternatively I could just pay 800$ for a 8TB SSD, install it in a laptop that cost around 1300-1500$ and I'm only spending 2300$.
On a Mac that's about 5000$. I make music and hate external drives with a passion.
The HN thread responding to your T480 article is all that's needed to understand why it's not really a replacement for a MBP:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34878240
I never said I replaced an MBP with it, but okay, yeah, the build quality is not the same.
First, I think you're correct that a used/refurb Thinkpad is a good solution for many people.
For me, what found attractive about the Framework is that I just don't like the idea of replacing my laptops wholesale. I like the little piecemeal upgrades that Framework offers. I like my tech to stay as unchanged as it can. I don't want to adjust to a new keyboard and touchpad and screen and charging situation all at the same time. I prefer the route of doing little upgrades over time, where things only change a little bit, when I'm ready for them to. Maybe next year I will upgrade the screen; maybe the next year I'll drop the USB-A module for something more useful; a couple years after that maybe I'll get a new mainboard; and all through this it's still the same laptop I've known and gotten used to. This is how I manage my desktop, and Framework lets me do the same with a laptop.
It's just a personality thing I think. Framework's piecemeal upgrade story is more attractive to me, but I agree there's other routes for people with other priorities.
Or buy an up-specced conventional laptop with a ton more storage and RAM to start with for the same price. Get your upgrades in first at no extra cost.
If you're getting a Framework with the top specs and can't get a competing laptop at higher spec cheaper, I can see the argument that you might benefit from the extra upgradability headroom. However that almost certainly means a mainboard upgrade, and I'd be concerned about the thermals of a current chassis with a hypothetical future mainboard.
Until recently with the recent madness it was almost always cheaper to buy a base model then upgrade RAM and storage yourself.
You can buy a new mainboard for a framework…
In terms of hardware, there shouldn't be too many surprises. People have been doing this with desktop computers for ages, so it's known what it means to maintain and upgrade 10+ years old computers. I have one (desktop) that I'm using regularly, and did a few minor upgrades over the years.
Of course, warranty and support quality is a different question.
To me, the biggest appeal of the Framework laptop is that I can repair it myself and buy OEM parts directly.
I currently own a Lenovo Legion laptop. Still, a very powerful machine, but the screen now has a spot in the middle with multiple dead pixels, the topcoat on the trackpad is peeling off, and the main body has spots where palms rest. I'd happily buy replacement parts and install them, but I can't.
I don't understand the argument you can buy Lenovo OEM parts pretty easily? Even if something is not available through the pcparts site I ordered a replacement display via support.
https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/parts-lookup
Yeah! I am also surprised. I have a lenovo from 2015 that's gotten it's wifi card, power IC, RAM - all replaced at some point for very cheap across multiple cities in India. And all this is on a Ideapad. One of their budget "professional" laptops, not even a Thinkpad.
While I understand what Framework is doing and the repairability aspect, somehow this conversation always seems to make it seem Laptops are similar to Ipads or something. It's not.
Can you buy a cheap donor laptop and strip it for parts?
I have been looking to buy a new laptop personally. Framework has a compelling argument. But with only 4 ports on the Framework, I'd likely be switching the ports often. In addition to using USB-C, I often need a USB-A for an external mouse but other times a HDMI port to connect to a display while presenting.
I don't think it's fair to compare Thinkpad X1 Carbon with Framework. The T14 range is a much better comparison. While Lenovo took a few steps back a few years ago the last couple of generations seem to be much better in regard to being repairable. The T14 Gen 5 [0] gets a 9/10 score on ifixit. Parts are easily available globally, while Framework is still somewhat limited in this regard geographically.
That said, it's great we have a choice! If it were not for Framework, I don't think Lenovo would have made an effort to make the Thinkpads repairable again.
- [0] https://www.ifixit.com/Device/Lenovo_ThinkPad_T14_Gen_5
My FW13 has two USB-C ports so I can charge from either side and have one free while it's charging, and then USB-A on one side and MicroSD on the other.
That covers all of my frequent needs. (My main monitor has usb-c input, and I have a couple of inexpensive adapters/hubs for HDMI, DP, Ethernet, etc. - all of which are used infrequently.)
I was a little concerned before buying it, and four is probably the minimum number of ports I could be happy with. But in practice I've been very satisfied with my port selection, and if you do need more ports, there's always the FW16.
I don't know anything at all about hardware engineering, but I am surprised they couldn't stuff 2 USB-C ports into one of those modules.
Folks have done it in the community forum, and it works fine for basic data. It gets tricky when you want to support charging, because then you need multiple voltage levels and the circuitry to convert between them. Apparently video is hard to do also.
you can switch the ports pretty quickly on framework laptops.
In my experience (my partner has a Framework), changing a port is not something easily done without putting the Framework bottom side up. In practice you need to stop whatever you are doing to first sleep the laptop, turn it over, change the port and then get back to what you were doing before. Repeat the process if you want to get the ports back in the original order.
I have a 16, not a 13, but I thought that the module swapping system was relatively similar, and this is not at all my experience. I just tilt up the bottom, click the port lock, and then pull out the module, and put in the new one. It takes me less than 10 seconds, all while the computer is on and open. So unless they module swap system isn't the same, I would have expected it to be even easier on the smaller, lighter 13.
Don't think I've ever done this. I reach under it, press the release button with one finger and with the adjacent finger grab the indentation under the card and slide it out. Card comes out in like two seconds.
Yeah, I agree with this. I find it simpler to just carry a couple of usb-c to whatever hub/adapters for when I need to a port my framework doesn't have built in.
The expansion cards seem pretty gimmicky to me. You're replacing a hub with... a bunch of hubs with one port on it. I know it opens up to some third party modules (this one seems particularly cool: https://github.com/LeoDJ/FW-EC-DongleHiderPlus) but for the most part you are getting less connectivity than other laptops. You don't even get an audio jack without taking up one of your expansion slots (edit: on the Framework 16. 13 includes it).
If the expansion slots were larger then they could have maybe facilitated something like getting 2 usb-a ports in exchange for the one USB-C which feels like an actual thing to consider. As it is, it just doesn't feel like you're gaining anything. If you're carrying any additional expansion cards with you you lose the only advantage it has over buying a hub, which can turn that one usb-c slot into multiple usb-a ports, ethernet, hdmi, audio, sd card reader, etc.
For what it's worth, the 13 does have an audio jack. It's only the 16 that requires an addin card for that.
I get what you're coming where you're coming from though. For me, the whole package was worth it, but that's probably not true for everyone.
I bought the first AMD Framework 13 at launch. It just works and I’d buy it again.
To me their software story is compelling. To use the wording of the article, I like that I can be a weirdo running Linux on a laptop and not be a fringe use case. I had no interest in either of their supported distros but their support forums had the necessary hints needed to get a different distro up and running (plugging in newer firmware from the Linux kernel git).
I like that they’ve given some support to the FreeBSD community and I’d like to run that on a future Framework.
I bought a Gen11 framework 13 then later when available I replaced its motherboard by a Gen12.
The old motherboard with the coolermaster case is tucked between two books in my library and is now running my home proxmox.
64GB RAM 4TB NVME 4C/8T 2.5G ethernet and ... 2 Watt idle.
I did run "proxmox in proxmox" with ceph and cloudinit/live migration for a conference I gave on this old motherboard:
video https://jres.ubicast.tv/permalink/v1268c650f5d41v26pt0/ifram...
PDF https://conf-ng.jres.org/2024/document_revision_2424.html?do...
scripts https://framagit.org/guerby/proxmox-in-proxmox
I've been eyeing the coolermaster kit. It seems like an interesting way to do a 1l pc.
Can you just plug usbc directly into them without using the expansion things?
The cooling seems to travel 90° corresponding to in the bottom and out the back of a laptop. How do you have it between two books?
The explicit support for Linux is the main reason I bought a Framework (which looked slightly more attractive to me than System76).
I purchased the first generation of FW13 laptops and got burned. The CMOS/RTC battery drains if not plugged in so the laptop never keeps proper time. I don't think I've ever used a gadget in the last few decades that needs setting the correct date & time every time I turn it on.
Granted, it was their first ever shipping product so I gave them a free pass but I thought they would atleast issue a recall or have a repair program where you send in the laptop to get it fixed. Instead they first denied it was even an issue, later on when enough people complained - they started a battery program where they send you a new ML220 coin battery that will also eventually stop working.
I was told buying a new mainboard (12th or 13th gen Intel) would fix it, but I decided to just buy a new ZenBook instead.
We have the full detail and a permanent fix for this issue here: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/RTC+Battery+Substitution+on+...
We still provide the RTC substitute module free to any 11th Gen owner who requests it.
The permanent fix involves soldering stuff on the mainboard, which I don't have any prior experience. The RTC substitute module you mention is just the ML220 coin battery that will also eventually stop working.
The RTC substitute module is the permanent fix, which does require soldering one wire to a point on the Mainboard.
I did this repair and it was not nearly as easy as you imply. The wire is extremely thin, and the pad on the motherboard is extremely small. I had to purchase special eye-wear in order to see what I was doing, in addition to a soldering iron.
It was and is totally wrong that Framework requires users to repair a component that was faulty from the factory. You should ship the laptops back to your facility and repair them, at your expense. At worst, offer a substantial discount on a motherboard replacement.
This experience is a big reason why I went from a strong Framework proponent to a strong detractor. You do not support your products, and users cannot trust you to do the right thing. You now bask in the idealistic haze of nerddom but your actions show that you're just a business for whom repairability is a sales strategy to justify premium prices.
The warranty suggests that Framework would "ship the laptops back to [their] facility and repair them, at [their] expense," as you said they should. Did that not happen while your warranty period was in effect?
https://frame.work/warranty
No, it did not. And you had one of their representatives in this thread verify that fact. They expected you to do the repair with a soldering iron.
My question was about what happened during your warranty period. nrp's response was independent of warranty obligations.
The issue did not arise until after the warranty period expired. The manufacturing flaw drained the real-time clock battery which lasted about a year. Their first fix was to send a new battery; the second fix was a soldering job. I am not a lawyer, but this does not seem like it is legal. The manufacturing flaw was present from the beginning but was masked by the battery's charge.
They just offered free batteries.
Nope. I don't think they even recognized the defect till many years later (probably for legal reasons?).
For users, that were still under warranty - they offered free RTC batteries (which also stopped working later).
Either way, I won't buy anything from them going forward.
I appreciate the response, but my suggestion would be to offer a mail-in service program so that users don't have to fiddle with potentially dangerous soldering (ideally Framework bearing the shipping costs or atleast subsidizing it).
I was on the market earlier this year snd I really wanted a framework to make sense. But it doesn’t. By my math, I could get two comparable laptops for the price of the framework, and the flexibility to get a second one with newer specs a few years down made it a bad deal for me. But if you aren’t strapped for cash and appreciate the sustainability, then it’s appealing. For me, a slightly greener laptop isn’t a good enough value proposition. Plus I prefer intel for TB support for an egpu.
What were you comparing against? When I bought my framework it didn't really have a price premium to it relatively to comparable laptops. The main compromise was the thicker chassis and fewer options in terms of things like premium displays.
> Plus I prefer intel for TB support for an egpu.
lol you and nobody else prefer Intel in a laptop these days. But FYI framework has TB support on their Intel skus and AMD has USB 4 (aka, thunderbolt 3++)
I didn't want to take any risks wrt the egpu support because with an egpu there's already a whole lot of unknowns, so wanted to play it safe with proper TB support. It's a bit of a niche requirement though, so I get that other people may not care. But aside from that I just wanted a basic cheap and light laptop. I got an Acer for £500 on sale with a 2nd gen intel chip. Despite the hate intel gets, their 2nd gen chips are actually really good in terms of battery life. If I spec a comparable laptop right now on Framework, it's around £1400, even for 1st gen intel. Plus the Acer came with a lovely OLED screen, which the framework doesn't seem to have, as you mentioned.
AMD USB4 is a joke. Every unplug is a gamble with amdgpu driver, you might get a working system, you might not, same for suspend-resume cycles.
Bought a thinkpad L450 10 years ago for about 900 euros. No GPU, which probably increased its lifespan. Replaced its HDD with a SSD.
Apart from thinkpads and maybe framework, I don't think there is any other reliable laptop brand with reasonable prices.
I was talking with my mother about buying jeans pants that would last for a long time, and a 200 euros jeans would have holes on its 6th year or something. Everything is built to last "just long enough".
I don't get Framework. The business offerings of HP, Dell and Lenovo have a lot of replacable parts, and you can easily upgrade the RAM and SSD on many. These laptops already exist for decades. Framework hardly brings anything new into the mix.
Relevant to "I'm returning my Framework Laptop" from a day or two ago (500+ comments):
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46375174
I think the Framework model (OTC/commodity parts + mainboard) is neat, but what Beelink and others in the MiniPC space are doing is much more useful and compelling for someone who needs a modern, extensible system.
My work doesn't require a lot of local compute (or repairs), so there's nothing really a Framework offers that I'm not already getting on a 5 year old $150 4GB Chromebook.
What is beelink doing?
I really like the idea of Framework. But the use-case for their laptop just doesn’t typically exist for me.
I have a custom built PC (been building my own since 2008). In that span, I had many minor upgrades and 3 entirely new from-scratch builds. I could not imagine it any other way.
For my laptops though, I never bothered. I want something that “just works” when I’m on-the-go, it’s fine if it’s not new hardware as I won’t game on them, and my primary concern is how light they are.
And then a few years ago I got the iPad Pro which became my only device I’d take while traveling.
I think the author is the target customer for Framework. A customer looking for a ship of Theseus laptop that the seller stands by.
I’ve looked at framework as a potential next laptop but it’s expensive, some of parts are expensive, and the other parts I’m not sure I’ve ever had issues with in past laptops. I think I’m better off buying multiple used thinkpads over the course of my life, or even a used MBP (refurbished m4 MBP goes for ~$1.3K from Apple, base configuration w/ 16GB ram for framework 13 is ~1.2K), than a Framework; the thinkpads would be cheaper and more eco friendly with good build quality. I’m not looking for a ship of Theseus laptop, I’m just looking for something that works a long time, is good enough, and I want to keep my lifetime expenditure on hardware on the lower side. I look at my laptop cost as upfront cost divided by number of years I expect to use it for and I have a spreadsheet with past laptops (and phones) tracking historical usage and costs to better inform my next purchase. Framework looks attractive but the costs don’t seem to align with my goal.
I’m own a FW13 and I have bought ~4 for employees.
I doubt I will order more. We’ve had small and large issues.
My Linux machine will drain the battery completely if you don’t perform a full shutdown, and even then the quiescent drain is too high and I can expect it to be dead in a week.
The dream of repairability is great, but the reality just isn’t there.
That said, I was able to replace a damaged screen with no effort at all. A far cry from the MS Surface I had previously, but any vendor could sell a screen or keyboard without the “full modularity” that FW pushes.
Apparently Surface laptops come with stellar repair guides now, and they improved repairability greatly. MS doing something nice for once?
Counterpoint… the battery is superglued to the chassis and to replace for my model was STEP 53, and that was to scrape the old battery off and glue the new one in, then 53 steps backwards to re-assemble.
See for yourself: https://www.ifixit.com/News/96998/from-0-10-to-8-10-microsof...
Almost two years ago I bought an opened but never used ThinkPad T14s from eBay very cheaply. It's not too specced but it does the job and it will easily last me 2-3 more years at which point I just buy another one. I see what Framework is doing, and they probably need the support of customers to get the scale of Lenovo/Dell to lower the cost of production.
Yes, eccentric, but this thread linked from the post is the real winner:
https://community.frame.work/t/the-snack-drawer-store-now-ma...
I've been wistfully watching people enjoy Framework Laptop from the sidelines for years now. One doubt that has always plagued me: realistically how long can the backwards compatibility for new improvements last? Surely there must be some point where a new processor, or chassis, or airflow improvement must necessitate the complete reconfiguration of the laptop internals or would be just plain unsupported? I don't have background in industrial design or electrical engineering so I've never been able to lay these doubts to rest.
We know how to make laptops now, and the framework is fine. A major development, like Apple-level power efficiency would require less airflow than x64. Don’t think there’s anything major to worry about. May need the 16 for pro-level local LLMs for a while.
Unfortunately the FW13 is how I realized I don't like 13(.5)" and 3:2, because I'm just too used to 14-16" and 16:10/16:9. I wish they had more variety in chassis, not just in size and aspect ratio, but also touchscreen and 2-in-1 conversion. You'd think that that might be easier to support than designing and supporting more mainboards. But when I saw that FW12 is a 2-in-1 I knew they were never going to add touch to 13/16, so I just gave up and got a different (larger) 2-in-1.
16:9 sucks unless you watch movies all day. A taller screen allows less scrolling. The 16 is larger and is 16:10.
So the 13 is probably a lot better than the new 16 for reasons that... well its simpler, smaller; and a lot more rigid (by virtue of its size).
From what I read about the 16 though that sounds like a lot harder of a sell.
I'm pretty sure the 13 is still paying Frameworks bills...
> Did I do anything productive or meaningful with it? Absolutely not.
> I could finally watch 480 YouTube videos instead of 360
What’s meaningless about this big upgrade in quality?
So with that and the misconceptions like "You can't change the RAM /SSD" (you can, but for a smaller set of laptops than before), the thesis is rather muddy (unless you literally plan a custom printed snacks tray, but even then other laptops have pluggable side bays, so could also plug in there?)
I'm guessing that the author is comparing it to their their M1 MacBook Pro, which has soldered in RAM and an Apple proprietary SSD, that is much more difficult to replace than a standard one.
Many laptops do still have replaceable RAM and SSDs, but it's not a sure thing these days.
I've had a Framework 13 for 20 months now. AMD Ryzen™ 5 7640U w/ 32GB DDR4. Running Ubuntu. I love it. My only complaint/request: USB-C for power should be build into the chassis and not require a modular port. You get 4 ports to mix things like usb/hdmi/sd-card, etc... 1 of the 4 is always using the usb-c for power.
As someone not swimming in piles of cash, I can't bring myself to get a framework laptop. Ironically enough, new ThinkPads, which are on sale pretty regularly, end up being much nicer, solidly built, more performant, and with an awesome warranty, even in my shithole region.
Recent and probably related:
I'm returning my Framework 16 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46375174 - Dec 2025 (576 comments)
I’d like to read from someone who has at least 5 years of experience with Framework. New stuffs are always interesting. But I prefer something that can last for 5 plus years. Framework afaik does not have long term guarantees which is a concern.
Framework as a company is only 5 years old, but they've already done several generations of upgrade parts (including webcam, keyboard, display, mainboards, etc...) and have large availability of repair/replacement parts. So unless their parts are uniquely bad in that they randomly fail after 5 years, it seems pretty clear that they are delivering on the long term ownership goals?
I think that's a reasonable point - is there anyone doing "State of My Framework" reports? It's hard to know how true their claim of timelessness through upgrades and repairs is without that.
I very much want a Framework 13 with a decent AI chip, but the abysmal battery life is a hard stop for me, sadly. I know this isn't entirely on Framework (get your shit together AMD).
I wonder how much of a laptop weirdo you would be if you didn't have other desktops or laptops to rely upon.
> You can't change the RAM on laptops now.
> You can't change the SSD on laptops now.
> You can't easily repair the screen on laptops now.
I can do all of that on my Thinkpad E14.
The only thing stopping me from buying one is that I heard the fan is quite loud. Is that still true?
I have the Intel Core Ultra and on the first mainboard I had (which Framework replaced because there were other issues) the fan ran quite a lot and was annoying. On the second board the fan never runs unless I'm compiling something.
Oh, I did magnificent things to my old Toughbook CF-17 / CF-m34. (It ended up as a franken-puter with parts of both.)
First: Remove the internal CDPD wireless modem, remove the internal 56k POTS modem/10/100 Ethernet combo card. Wire the TTL-level UART from the CDPD port over to the RJ11 jack so I could now hack on embedded devices using a simple RJ11-to-bare-wires cable.
Second: The modem/ethernet card removal freed up the MiniPCI slot. Obtain a MiniPCI-to-USB2.0 card (4 downstream ports), and desolder the tall headers (it was meant for embedded machines with more internal space). Then verrrry carefully desolder the machine's external USB1.1 port pins from the mobo, and wire them over to one of the USB2.0 host ports. (Ground stayed, but D+/D-/Vbus moved.) Ta-daa, faster external devices.
This is the only bit I seem to have a photo of: https://flickr.com/photos/myself248/255205625/
Third: Carve out some stiffening ribs from under the palm-rest, shuck a USB-Bluetooth adapter, and mount it in there. The palm-rest being plastic means this puts the radio outside the magnesium shell, but still "internal" from an ergonomic perspective. Sneak some wires past the touchpad opening and solder them to the now-freed-up USB1.1 host port on the mobo, since bluetooth doesn't need 480Mbps.
Fourth: Shuck a 2GB USB flash drive and wire it to another internal USB2.0 port, and run EBoostr, a third-party implementation of Readyboost for WinXP, which gave flash-cache functionality for severely RAM-limited machines like mine (192MB mobo max, sadly!). Tuck it up by the RAM, ironically, because there's plenty of room up there.
Fifth: Shuck a USB2.0-GigE adapter (one with separate magnetics and jack, leave the magnetics but remove the jack because it's too tall, also remove the USB port), and wire it to yet a third internal USB2.0 port. Wire the Ethernet side out to the RJ45 jack freed up by the 10/100 card removal. The speed boost from 100Mbps to 480Mbps (GigE bottlenecked by USB2.0) isn't nothing, but the real benefit is that GigE is Auto-MDIX so I never have to carry a crossover cable, and that's worth it all by itself.
Sixth: Shuck a USB-Wifi dongle, and wire it to the fourth and final internal USB2.0 port. Do the world's hairiest coax splice to the CDPD modem's antenna lead, so the 2.4GHz RF now goes out to the 800MHz-tuned antenna mounted on the screen. Split the antenna open and trim the active elements to 1/3 their length, raising the resonant frequency accordingly. Without access to a VNA at the time, this was as good as I could get, and it worked just fine.
At that point, it was pretty much the perfect laptop, except for the brutally-limited RAM, which eventually forced its obsolescence as browsers bloated without bound. I used it heavily during 2006-07, and to this day I still miss that perfect little keyboard.
I love all of this.
I’ve never been brave enough to modify my laptops beyond the one time I sprayed a new (hard) topcoat on an Acer Aspire 5520g… which turned it from a flimsy piece of garbage into a slightly less flimsy piece of garbage.
I feel like running a Thinkpad x201 these days would be a lesson in frustration (for the browser bloat you mentioned) but that was my perfect laptop. If I could do a mainboard swap I would continue to use it.
Yeah, although the low-res screens on older machines are pretty limiting with modern UIs too. Try setting 800x600 for an hour and see how you fare. I have romantic dreams about spinning a new mobo for the Toughbook, but it would have to include a screen transplant too. And at that point I probably fail a lot of the toughness that made it worthwhile in the first place.
I want to like framework, but whenever I've seen one of them in person I was pretty disappointed about the case/chassis. And the touchpad.
For me personally, weight doesn't matter that much, and neither does configurability (I guess by now they have data on the most popular port choices for example).
But size (as small/minimal as possible for a given screen and keyboard size – minimal bezels for both) and strength (no flex, solid hinge) do matter to me.
I understand these two things conflict with themselves, and with the framework's repairability and configurability.
Still, I'd like to see some true innovation there. I'm just afraid they painted themselves into a corner with their current mainboard design, and won't be able to diverge from that to bring us something truly solid yet compact and repairable.
I just wish they would introduce a TKL layout. I don't use laptop keyboard because during development I rely on the navigation key combos. Think control-shift-home or shift-arrow, or control-pagedown.
And it's disappointing because Framework is the _perfect_ company to offer such an option.
I've posted this about a year ago on another Framework thread. I see a lot of questions from people interested in FW laptops, so I thought my experience may help understand the good and bad.
I bought a Framework 13" in 2022, Intel 13th gen with 32GB ram (probably not as stupid as expensive as it is now) and 1TB drive.
It has good intentions but falls short. I would say overall it is a mediocre laptop in terms of quality.
Will it last longer than any other laptop? I would think so, as it has a strong story of available parts and upgrades. Similarly I believe it would last longer than any other laptop, since you can essentially do a Ship of Theseus with it.
Pain points:
The webcam / mic are good enough. I run Linux on it, and seems to run pretty stable.I needed this laptop because I needed 32GB of ram for compile jobs (c++ programmers on large projects knows such pain). I have since got a macbook pro 16" with >32GB of ram and it can compile what I need using Rosetta 2 for Linux (so amd64 compiles). Since my mac can now do everything I need, I haven't really touched my Framework; I just keep it spare when I need a bare metal x86-64 in a pinch. I loathe the idea of having to use it over a mac laptop.
The good news is since my post a year ago, Apple has since released the m4 chips which allow the Macbook Air range to drive up to two external displays using thunderbolt.
They need to bring trackpoint and WWAN, otherwise they simply are not a competition for Lenovo, as much as I hate it.
I also find their design very boring. I am not asking for a MacBook, but even ThinkPads are way more sexy and you can actually identify with that design. Framework just comes off as another 2015 MacBook Air design knockoff.
[dead]
[dead]
[dead]
[flagged]
[flagged]
Omarchy and DHH are great, nice to see framework supporting them. hyprland is amazing too.
Omarchy is a thin set of vibecoded shell scripts on top of arch linux, and DHH is a right-wing weirdo.
It certainly strikes me as odd that a company like framework would choose to support Omarchy so loudly as they did, and then refuse to comment on it.
[flagged]
Such details also annoy me, but this one would be very easy to fix with a semi-transparent sticker, or a marker.
If I'm buying a premium machine, I don't expect and want to mod it with $3 tape and ¢50 markers. It's like buying a premium car and installing an aftermarket instrument cluster because the OEM one is too bright at its lowest setting.
I agree, but reality is often different, even for cars. Sometimes because of incompetence, sometimes because of dark patterns. Many newer cars do have space for putting your phone somewhere on the middle console, but it's arranged in ways to make it impossible to place your phone in a way that would make it usable for navigation. Why? Because they desparately want you to use their own navigation setup (which probably costs extra too).
If we exclude a Dacia which lacked a screen and a radio, all the cars I have rented in the last three years had Android Auto and Apple CarPlay built in. Even though my phone was tucked there somewhere, I always used my phone's maps and other features while driving via the USB cable or wirelessly.
And, that wasn't half bad even. Did phone calls, used maps, listened to some music. Got the job done pretty smoothly.
Easier yet - it can be controlled in software. Turn it up, down, off.
No extra software required - uses the standard APIs.
The LED is the lining of the power button so it's not so trivial to fix without affecting the power button itself. It's quite an annoyance too I think.
Thin tape
Smudged adhesive, sticky button, a dislocated tape, dirt, ugliness, etc.
It's also not hard to fix in software, just like the original poster has done, without any ugly patches that can slide off leaving sticky residue
Write better notes, you've missed all the more important reasons!
The rest of them are just as fastidious if not more.
Lowest screen brightness and color correctness of the said screen are not trivial issues. I used to work in a dimly illuminated room during late nights, and any screen which can't do low-light properly is blinding.
Color correctness, even if you don't hit "calibrated pipeline" levels is extremely useful for seeing and/or editing photos. Even if you're doing this casually.
They aren't, otherwise you wouldn't have to pick the lightest of them and pick only 1
The lightest one? What about the display colour mismatch, which is literally one of the first things I calibrate away when I get a new laptop, even on macbooks? Imagine moaning about two displays from completely different manufacturers and production dates showing different colours...
Or maybe the auto-dimming feature which can be disabled by software?
Or the touchpad which is 'too sensitive when scrolling'....
> first things I calibrate away
How? Do you expect every user to have an easier access to color calibration hardware devices to fix this issue compared to a software fix they could find after some googling???
> auto-dimming feature which can be disabled by software
He also disabled the led via software, so you failed to point out why this one is easier
> the touchpad which is 'too sensitive when scrolling'....
How is this lighter? Touching the touchpad is a very frequent action, so the deficiency will affect you every day, and you can’t fix it by looking up some systemd service unlike the LED, and you can’t put a sticker on it to dim it. So how is an unsolvable frequent issue more trivial than a solvable one?