> The petition cites the 2022 decision by the ICM’s organizing body, the International Mathematical Union (IMU), to move the last congress out of Saint Petersburg, Russia, in response to the country’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine earlier that year. The event was moved mostly online, with a small in-person awards ceremony held in Helsinki, Finland.
>
> “Holding the ICM in the United States, after it started two illegal wars, represents a double standard, given that, practically immediately after Russia invaded Ukraine, the ICM in Russia was canceled,” says Michael Harris, a mathematician at Columbia University. Harris is a scheduled panelist for the conference, though he is listed by the petition as an ICM speaker who shares its values.
The logic checks out. Must have some logician signatories.
Not to mention the risk of getting blocked at customs or arrested by ICE.
"The petition follows months of trepidation about the congress within the math community. “You do not get 1,500 signatures in 10 days without having many, many mathematicians already registering their complaints to their professional societies and to the ICM organizers,” says Ila Varma, a mathematician at the University of Toronto and one of the petition’s co-authors."
-------------
ICM's peak attendance is around four thousand, so 1,500 would-be attendees signing a petition to move the conference in ten days is pretty authoritative.
There are many researchers who already avoid US conferences. The risk of arbitrary arrest, being denied entry, or general asshattery from border guards who want to snoop through your social media is just too high. The needless and unjustified war against Iran is just the final straw.
This comment is devoid of data. There have been less stoppages and detentions than you can count on one hand of scientists and mathematicians. There are hundreds of thousands classified via various levels of visa. None have been arrested in some unlawful manner, and the onus is on you to define "asshattery" in a way that is defensible. Foreign adversaries have been embedded within the US academic institutions before the Cold War. Just because the current US president is a divisive convicted felon doesn't suddenly mean we shouldn't care about controlling our own borders.
The US (and many nations for that matter) monitor, track, and protect their borders by foreigners and of a group of mathematicians cannot fathom why this may be the case amidst all-time high mistrust, spying, and academic and corporate espionage and then they should've studied harder.
But it is not just about the numbers, you are probably right that statistically, mathematicians don't have much to fear at the border, but the current administration seems to go out of its way make the US unwelcoming. All countries will protect their borders in some way but they usually don't make a show out of it like the US does.
If you go to a hotel and are greeted by a grumpy guy who asks how how you dare book a room on their property, it is a natural reaction to move to the hotel next door where the staff is hopefully more friendly.
These are just cases that make the news. There is a very real possibility of being detained, having devices confiscated, or being refused entry if you are an outspoken critic of the president.
when i consider traveling to any country i don't care about statistics. i care about feeling safe. unless you can prove and guarantee that i will not be bothered when crossing the border then i'll stay away.
What an utter piece of shit comment. I have had friends (research mathematicians) who were harassed at the border and you have the temerity to do the "cite your sources" shitcrap for "data" which is available with a single click of the mouse -- as the very gracious sibling comment showed, doing your work for you.
Clearly that one although it is unclear if she really wanted to run him over. That was a sorry event on all sides from the 'professional protesters' who think they can just interfere with police operations without running any risk themselves - the woman's partner screamed 'why did you use real bullets' - to the policeman who, having been dragged along by an illegal several weeks ago was clearly hair-triggered when it comes to vehicular assault.
The lesson to be learned here is that a) protesters should realise that they are bound by the same laws as all others no matter how virtuous they consider their causes to be and that interfering with police operations comes with real risks and b) the combination of such actions by protesters with the experiences police officers have had during encounters with their targets can make them react in ways which it can be assumed they'd normally not have done. Shooting that woman did not reduce the risk for the police officer, at all. It actually increased the risk of damage to him or others because wounded or dead people behind the wheel can turn vehicles into unguided projectiles.
I'm going to guess that for many signers-- or at least the US ones-- their opposition to the United States and "its unbridled hatred" doesn't extend to not accepting funding from the US taxpayer.
Entry requirements and the overhead of dealing with visa hoops are a perennial problem for international conferences, nothing new-- and presumably a part of why it hasn't been held in the US in recent memory. But the language on this petition is particularly extreme.
Nobody will care if the conference isn’t held in Philly. Holding it elsewhere will probably make it a little easier and possibly a little cheaper for people to attend. I doubt mathematicians are part of the 1%, so cash and travel hassle should matter. And given today’s Internet, there’s going to be remote attendance which can happen most anywhere.
While it’s still convenient to gather together to discuss a field, it’s not crucial as it was in past times. Easier to do what’s best for the largest number of people.
It's just grandstanding.They are mathematicians not political activists. If they want their organization to slide into irrelevance, getting involved in left wing (or right wing, but with academia it's usually left wing) politics is a great way to do that.
Anyone can be a "political activist". An activist is just an ordinary person who has had enough. Unless you believe the only valid way to influence political discourse is with money.
Sure, anyone can be an activist but it is clear that academia has been turned into an activist training centre. It is also remarkable how these supposedly intelligent people go astray when it comes to the causes they support, from supporting Hamas to defending those who'd throw them off high buildings or putting them against the wall if they got their chance.
Training would imply that it made effective activists, but activism from these quarters tends to alienate outsiders. It's more purity spiral than activism.
Well, no, I don't think training necessarily would make them effective given the context of academic activism. If the whole world would look like a college campus it might but there is such a big disconnect between the real world and academia that even the best trained academic activist ends up doing just what you describe. In some parts of society it has worked though, viz. the rise of the 'DEI' phenomenon driven in part by the infusion of academics into organisations who used their positions to bring in more academics of similar mindset while shunning those who did not subscribe to the desired narrative. Where it used to be said that it did no harm to let those silly students larp revolutionaries because they'd drop all that when they re-entered 'the real world' the truth turned out to be reversed in that they took all that ideological baggage with them into society.
> The petition cites the 2022 decision by the ICM’s organizing body, the International Mathematical Union (IMU), to move the last congress out of Saint Petersburg, Russia, in response to the country’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine earlier that year. The event was moved mostly online, with a small in-person awards ceremony held in Helsinki, Finland. > > “Holding the ICM in the United States, after it started two illegal wars, represents a double standard, given that, practically immediately after Russia invaded Ukraine, the ICM in Russia was canceled,” says Michael Harris, a mathematician at Columbia University. Harris is a scheduled panelist for the conference, though he is listed by the petition as an ICM speaker who shares its values.
The logic checks out. Must have some logician signatories.
Not to mention the risk of getting blocked at customs or arrested by ICE.
FWIW, the Joint Mathematics Meeting is bigger, based on number of registered attendees [1].
[1] https://jointmathematicsmeetings.org/meetings/national/jmm20...
"The petition follows months of trepidation about the congress within the math community. “You do not get 1,500 signatures in 10 days without having many, many mathematicians already registering their complaints to their professional societies and to the ICM organizers,” says Ila Varma, a mathematician at the University of Toronto and one of the petition’s co-authors."
-------------
ICM's peak attendance is around four thousand, so 1,500 would-be attendees signing a petition to move the conference in ten days is pretty authoritative.
Reminds me of:
https://theconversation.com/calls-for-a-boycott-of-the-2026-...
There are many researchers who already avoid US conferences. The risk of arbitrary arrest, being denied entry, or general asshattery from border guards who want to snoop through your social media is just too high. The needless and unjustified war against Iran is just the final straw.
This comment is devoid of data. There have been less stoppages and detentions than you can count on one hand of scientists and mathematicians. There are hundreds of thousands classified via various levels of visa. None have been arrested in some unlawful manner, and the onus is on you to define "asshattery" in a way that is defensible. Foreign adversaries have been embedded within the US academic institutions before the Cold War. Just because the current US president is a divisive convicted felon doesn't suddenly mean we shouldn't care about controlling our own borders.
The US (and many nations for that matter) monitor, track, and protect their borders by foreigners and of a group of mathematicians cannot fathom why this may be the case amidst all-time high mistrust, spying, and academic and corporate espionage and then they should've studied harder.
I think that mathematicians can do the maths...
But it is not just about the numbers, you are probably right that statistically, mathematicians don't have much to fear at the border, but the current administration seems to go out of its way make the US unwelcoming. All countries will protect their borders in some way but they usually don't make a show out of it like the US does.
If you go to a hotel and are greeted by a grumpy guy who asks how how you dare book a room on their property, it is a natural reaction to move to the hotel next door where the staff is hopefully more friendly.
"French scientist denied entry to US over anti-Trump messages"
<https://thehill.com/policy/international/5205954-french-scie...>
"Korean Scientist With Green Card Detained for a Week and Denied Access to His Lawyer"
<https://www.commondreams.org/news/korean-legal-resident-deta...>
"A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone"
<https://www.theverge.com/2017/2/12/14583124/nasa-sidd-bikkan...>
"Russian scientist working at Harvard detained by ICE after being stopped at Logan Airport"
<https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/russian-scientist-wo...>
"Chinese American researchers targeted at US border"
<https://concernedscientists.org/2023/03/chinese-american-res...>
These are just cases that make the news. There is a very real possibility of being detained, having devices confiscated, or being refused entry if you are an outspoken critic of the president.
> This comment is devoid of data.
So is yours...
when i consider traveling to any country i don't care about statistics. i care about feeling safe. unless you can prove and guarantee that i will not be bothered when crossing the border then i'll stay away.
What an utter piece of shit comment. I have had friends (research mathematicians) who were harassed at the border and you have the temerity to do the "cite your sources" shitcrap for "data" which is available with a single click of the mouse -- as the very gracious sibling comment showed, doing your work for you.
[dead]
[flagged]
[flagged]
Maybe they are not fans of American citizens being shot in the face?
Which specific incident are you referring to? Not the one where the American citizen tried to run over the ICE agent with her car, right?
the usual flipfloppers who support both the Jan 6 riot and the killings of anybody not agreeing with their dear leader
You're either not American or are much less in tune with what's happened than you think.
By the way. "Iran is a bad government" and "I don't want an avoidable, illegal hot war with Iran" can coexist.
Clearly that one although it is unclear if she really wanted to run him over. That was a sorry event on all sides from the 'professional protesters' who think they can just interfere with police operations without running any risk themselves - the woman's partner screamed 'why did you use real bullets' - to the policeman who, having been dragged along by an illegal several weeks ago was clearly hair-triggered when it comes to vehicular assault.
The lesson to be learned here is that a) protesters should realise that they are bound by the same laws as all others no matter how virtuous they consider their causes to be and that interfering with police operations comes with real risks and b) the combination of such actions by protesters with the experiences police officers have had during encounters with their targets can make them react in ways which it can be assumed they'd normally not have done. Shooting that woman did not reduce the risk for the police officer, at all. It actually increased the risk of damage to him or others because wounded or dead people behind the wheel can turn vehicles into unguided projectiles.
Iraqis and Libyans too.
You seem to be the one disconnected from reality here...
I'm going to guess that for many signers-- or at least the US ones-- their opposition to the United States and "its unbridled hatred" doesn't extend to not accepting funding from the US taxpayer.
Entry requirements and the overhead of dealing with visa hoops are a perennial problem for international conferences, nothing new-- and presumably a part of why it hasn't been held in the US in recent memory. But the language on this petition is particularly extreme.
Ain’t much US taxpayer money going to mathematicians and I think that if any goes overseas it would be to US citizens.
Nobody will care if the conference isn’t held in Philly. Holding it elsewhere will probably make it a little easier and possibly a little cheaper for people to attend. I doubt mathematicians are part of the 1%, so cash and travel hassle should matter. And given today’s Internet, there’s going to be remote attendance which can happen most anywhere.
While it’s still convenient to gather together to discuss a field, it’s not crucial as it was in past times. Easier to do what’s best for the largest number of people.
Huh? This is primarily because travelling to the US is not worth the risk right now.
It's just grandstanding.They are mathematicians not political activists. If they want their organization to slide into irrelevance, getting involved in left wing (or right wing, but with academia it's usually left wing) politics is a great way to do that.
Anyone can be a "political activist". An activist is just an ordinary person who has had enough. Unless you believe the only valid way to influence political discourse is with money.
Sure, anyone can be an activist but it is clear that academia has been turned into an activist training centre. It is also remarkable how these supposedly intelligent people go astray when it comes to the causes they support, from supporting Hamas to defending those who'd throw them off high buildings or putting them against the wall if they got their chance.
Training would imply that it made effective activists, but activism from these quarters tends to alienate outsiders. It's more purity spiral than activism.
Well, no, I don't think training necessarily would make them effective given the context of academic activism. If the whole world would look like a college campus it might but there is such a big disconnect between the real world and academia that even the best trained academic activist ends up doing just what you describe. In some parts of society it has worked though, viz. the rise of the 'DEI' phenomenon driven in part by the infusion of academics into organisations who used their positions to bring in more academics of similar mindset while shunning those who did not subscribe to the desired narrative. Where it used to be said that it did no harm to let those silly students larp revolutionaries because they'd drop all that when they re-entered 'the real world' the truth turned out to be reversed in that they took all that ideological baggage with them into society.
Not wanting to travel to a dangerous country is not politics.
Looking out for the best interests of your members isn't activism.