In this discussion the upgradability comes up often. Not to deny this aspect but in (my) reality it just doesn't matter.
I buy myself a Apple device every 1-2 years (alternating desktop, laptop, tablet) so that every device is in use by me for about 3-5 years and then gets handed down to the family (spouse, kids, parents). The demand is big enough that the alternative of selling the devices never occurred.
So the Apple devices are not disposed and in use for more than a decade while my devices are up to date. I think this happens in a lot of families. In mine it had been this way for about 30 years when I got a Performa 630 handed down from my dad.
I love my Framework laptop. The only thing I haven't seen mentioned in detail is the expansion card bay redesign. Current F13 expansion cards will pull out sometimes when you remove a USB cable, which is a real annoyance. F11 fixed this by creating optional set screws you can install on the inside of the machine that forces the expansion cards to stay engaged.
I know F13pro has redesigned the switches for removing expansion cards, and that the design was headed by the same person who did the F11, so I'm really hoping for set screws or some sort of similar "true" locking mechanism.
If anyone from Framework is reading this, would you be able to fill in some details?
I've had the framework 13 since batch 5 of their original first model and that has never happened to me once. Are you sure you're pushing the expansion cards _all the way_ in? They should click and the little button between the cards should pop up slightly more when the cards are fully inserted. It is certainly possible to have the cards visually look inserted and work normally but haven't actually been pushed in far enough to click/lock into place.
FWIW I've also replaced my chassis once, and never had this issue with either chassis.
Yeah if anything I've always had the opposite problem with my FW13 (12th gen Intel era) - removing the expansion cards is a pain in the ass with how tight it is. Curious if it got looser over time.
Regardless, glad to see they're just outright redesigned the expansion card mechanism, hopefully this stops issues on both ends of the spectrum.
Indeed, me too! I try to show my coworkers the cool expansion card system and end up embarrassing myself, struggling to remove the card for like 10 seconds.
Yeah they are, but I've got some admittedly snug USB cables on my charger, other cables don't do it. I've looked at the latch mechanism and it seems sharp and not worn down, and it clicks when I put it in. I suspect the button on the bottom gets pressed accidentally and unseats the latch.
If it's what I'm thinking about, they showed it in one of their videos where they compare the old 13 to the Pro. It looked like a latch mechanism that you can operate with one hand but still keeps it secure in place.
> Current F13 expansion cards will pull out sometimes
Just echoing what others have said here: I'm typing this on an original F13 I think from batch 6 which has had many upgrades but not the bottom cover. I have never had an expansion card pop out accidentally. I can't imagine that happening considering how difficult they are to remove. I usually have to lay the laptop flat upside down and use my multitool while holding the button to push a card out.
My wife has an F12 and she has also never had one pop out accidentally. Unlike mine, hers has locking switches to keep them in place, but even with the switches open they're pretty hard to remove.
Is it possible there was an intermediate redesign at some point that made them too easy to remove before they landed on the latest design?
> Current F13 expansion cards will pull out sometimes when you remove a USB cable
That feels like a defect in your particular machine, not a design flaw. With my laptop, the cards are actually incredibly difficult to remove most of the time. I can't imagine one of them coming loose by accident.
I own three and they all do it on occasion. Usually with a USB cable that tends to fit more snugly in the port. I mentioned it in another post in this thread but I think the button on the bottom gets pushed accidentally while being handled and the latch becomes unseated.
I have an early 13 and find the expansion cards take a lot of effort to remove, so maybe it’s a batch thing. Seems like the new 13 redesigned it a bit anyway. I’ll probably get the new bottom so I can use the new battery.
I like their openness on hardware design. They open sourced their design under CC-BY-4.0 (surprisingly no NC!) in hope that it could enable reuse [1].
However, the whole thing is overpriced. Quoting kingsleyopara's comment 4 days ago [2],
...matching specs it comes out as more expensive than the MBP - even worse when you factor in potential discounts/sales which framework doesn't offer.
Framework 13 Pro: £2064 (Ultra X7 358H, 16GB, 1TB, default ports, no adapter)
Framework 13 Pro: £2264 (Ultra X7 358H, 32GB, 1TB, default ports, no adapter)
MacBook Pro 14: £1699 (M5, 16GB, 1TB, no adapter)
MacBook Pro 14: £2099 (M5, 32GB, 1TB, no adapter)
MacBook Pro 14: £2199 (M5 Pro, 24GB, 1TB, no adapter) - added as I think it’s an even better deal
Cost of the Framework 13 upgrade kit in 2031: £499
The point of the upgradability and openness of the design is that you only have to pay that cost once, instead of every time you buy a laptop. How much will it cost to upgrade a MacBook's RAM if you decide you need more after a year or two? £2099?
I just did a quick check: a 2022 Macbook pro M1 with 1tb and 16gb ram goes for 1119 euros on eBay. A new M5 mbp with the same ram and disk is 1899 euros, so 709 difference. And you get a whole new machine not just a cpu upgrade.
Because they are indeed still cheaper? I'm not sure what you're getting at with your question. You can look up values for older Macs if you just don't want to believe it …
Why wouldn’t I want to “believe it”? Isn’t that the premise my entire question is based on? I’m not sure what you’re getting at with your misdirection.
Apple only makes disposable devices now. They're a megacorp can negotiate massive discounts at every stage of the supply chain.
I've helped several people in the last few years set up new Macs, replacing ones that were only 1-2 years old, because they ran out of storage.
Additionally, the comparison doesn't even hold true when you need more than the base configs from Apple, given their ridiculous upgrade pricing. I'm writing this on a $6,000USD M3 MBP with 128gb/4tb. It would have been substantially cheaper to build out on a Framework.
IMO it’s a reasonable point to make when compared to something like the Framework. And it took legal action to get them to offer battery replacements for iPhones, I don’t think you can really claim they’re passionate about component reuse.
> "[...] they just last way longer than any of their competitors."
Citations, please.
In the meantime, an anecdote: My oldest modern-era (64-bit) daily driver is one I use heavily since 15 years. An HP, 16 or 17 years old. The only component that ever caked-out in that bird was the original mechanical hard drive, which died just this year. Similar experiences with IBM/Lenovo, Panasonic and Fujitsu. Apple laptops I don't even look at for they don't offer anything I need.
Even putting aside the whole repairability thing, with the Mac you’re stuck with Apple Silicon. Apple’s processors are mostly awesome, of course, but using one does mean you’re stuck with macOS—Asahi Linux seems to be a ways away from M5 support.
What sells me on it is I get to take a spare Gen4 m.2 ssd out of my gaming PC I wasn't fully utilizing instead of paying for 1TB of storage.
Being able to drive the price down by re-using parts I already have is a pretty big selling point, IMO.
Also, I think Apple is benefitting from scale, since they're able to maintain the (usually too high) storage and memory prices they've had for years. At this moment in time, framework have the misfortune of being forced to pass inflated wholesale prices onto the consumer.
Make this comparison one calendar year ago and the F13 Pro could very easily beat the MBP on price spec-for-spec.
The MacBook's aren't a fungible alternative as they lock you into MacOS effectively and don't use Intel and AMD processors.
Also, I'm not sure what a good alternative is these days to the Framework 13 Pro. I DO NOT USE GLOSS SCREENS on productivity laptops(the only reason I have a laptop). Heck, my LG OLED monitor and top-end Samsung s95f OLED TV are matte as well due to the lighting in my space; I like light!
That means any time I'm looking at laptops I've having to re-asses the landscape because year-to-year manufactures flip-flop between screen finish even in their productivity lines. The Asus Zenbook looks good, but it's all gloss screens. I'm looking at the latest crop of Thinkbook and they don't even have the AMD 350 as an option right now; and I'm not sure about the display finish.
It's not so easy to compare like-for-like when it's apples and oranges.
This always seems to come up in discussions about Framework.
The extra cost is more than made up in not having to buy a full new computer every few years, and in being able to swap out the keyboard for $40 if it breaks.
SSD and RAM prices are wacky nowadays, but when I got my DIY framework 13, it was MUCH cheaper than the apple equivalent if you wanted more than the minimum specs (in my case, 32GB RAM + 2TB SSD). Main downside was software/firmware that didn't work well with Framework hardware
Apple could make a modular device to very close to the same price they do their current laptop. Its much more about size and supply chain then some minor changes in design. Maybe a little bit more extensive, but not more then 5-10%. They don't make it modular because they don't want it to be modular.
I had to sell my 2016 MacBook Pro because Apple made a defective keyboard design and I had no recourse other than having it replaced with the same defective design. This repair required the replacement of the entire top case of the computer including a number of unrelated components. Without the widespread negative press and repair program, this repair would have cost hundreds of dollars.
I am willing to pay more for a product made by a company whose respect for its customers manifests itself in the design of the product.
I am willing to pay more for a product that has first-class support for non-commercial operating systems that aren’t trying to collect data and sell services.
Lately it’s become obvious to me that Linux is a better desktop experience than macOS or Windows. Liquid Glass ruined my Mac, and Windows is…well, I only ever ran it so I could play games.
Sure, Apple is cheaper, because they make more money selling you services than selling Macs and iPads combined. These are services that are advertised to you within basic settings panels of the operating system, including apps like News that cannot be uninstalled (even Microsoft allows you to uninstall apps like that!)
I don’t want to pay less for a Mac that feels slick during the warranty period but has no upgrade path and no reasonably priced way to repair even minor issues.
Economy of scale... they cannot make (or sell) anywhere near as many as Apple does, so of course it's going to be more expensive. Just like that "Made in USA" grill brush that costs 75 dollars (but guess where the machines that make it come from).
Macbooks were not overpriced since M1 Air released in 2020. Of course Apple was not competing in low-end segment back then, but $1200-$1400 M1 just outperformed all the competitors for years. Now with Neo release they basically outplayed everyone in low-end segment.
Framework offer is completely different - they sell you upgradable computer that supports your right to repair.
I mean yeah they’re right but it’s not like the difference is particularly staggering. And unfortunately having control and quality runs a premium these days.
Plus depending on what you’re upgrading it could very well save you money in the long run, as the parts you can replace or upgrade yourself in an MBpro are few and far between. The few things you can replace often cost an arm and a leg and require way more technical expertise than a framework demands.
Also, Mac lock in. Not something to lightly ignore. Framework will run basically anything except MacOS.
I'm not hating on Framework and I'm genuinely rooting for them but the last part is a bit of a weird PRO to me.
What else can it run besides Windows and insert-long-list-of-Linux-distros-here compared to your run of the mill laptop? Can it run OpenBSD, NetBSD or FreeBSD without issues? How about Haiku if we're feeling crazy?
Something that I think is a better PRO (if we're talking operating systems) is that from what I understand (though I might be wrong) is that you could use the Storage Expansion Card and have Windows installed on it for those moments when you have to boot into Windows in anger due to some use case not served by Linux (Adobe Reader I'm looking at you). Now that's nifty to me.
I do not have a framework so I have not looked at the entire list of what OS’s it can support as I’m only interested in pop and bazzite these days. It may very well support those you listed
Yeah, I've checked and I came across this thread https://community.frame.work/t/alternative-oses/71944/4 on the Framework forums that confirms that people are actively interested in running more than Windows and Linux. The future is bright.
RE: Pop and Bazzite
I'm really excited for COSMIC, did you find it good enough to daily drive yet? I've been watching from the sidelines but I haven't taken the plunge to try it.
Interesting that the new laptop is selling beyond their expectation, and that the Ubuntu version is outselling the Windows one. Maybe their customer base is a "niche", but it seems to be one that makes them good coin nevertheless.
Does anyone know how the Intel and AMD offerings compare?
I take it battery life is better on Intel.
What about performance for different tasks, such as coding, compiling, etc. What about local LLMs? Do both platforms have "unified memory" à la Apple Silicon? Neither?
It looks like Intel's new Panther Lake chips are a hit, they have amazing battery life and performance compared to their AMD and ARM equivalents (excluding Apple ofc), and the the integrated graphics is better than AMD, ARM, or Apple.
They do not have integrated memory, but by using LPCAMM2 they get better memory speeds than any laptops using the usual SODIMM memory modules.
It's nice to see Intel on the upswing again, more competition is always a good thing.
I saw that, but how does that work for GPU workloads? Either games of AI, really. Do I need to set a value on the BIOS for how much of the memory is split between RAM and VRAM?
AMD unfortunately didn't actually get faster this gen. panther lake is faster than zen5 mobile for both cpu and GPU (except for workloads where avx512 matters)
Yes it was a bit weird how the latest generation AMD laptop chip was a sideways step. I blame the useless NPU wasting silicon, but what do I know.
I still got it as it was better than Intel's last year's offering, and it's still a fine chip. But kind of highlights how good the previous 7000 series chip was.
The nice part about the Intel board is all 4 ports support usb4/thunderbolt 4 so all 4 ports are completely interchangeable whereas on the AMD board I need to remember to plug my dock into the back ports closer to the hinge.
You mean just suspend as in 'sleep'? Like closing the lid on a macbook. I am doing that with the regular framework 13 (same amd though) multiple times a day.
Also, with hardware being now more expensive, just being able to swap parts for upgrades or repairs is way more appealing than before.
Not to mention they don't spend time with marketing fluff about AI, which in the current market is winning them some clients.
But I also think the fact that they have been here for a long time now, and they got the pro backward compatible with the old 13 means people trust them now. They delivered.
Sure, but if you factor in the possibility of never having to do a full system upgrade again, and instead just upgrading individual parts (including the chassis) as needed, the long term cost of ownership would be way lower if you commit to framework
Everything I've read about Frameworks quality control makes the above very doubtful.
If you watch the sales on other laptops you can easily get similar specs for half of what framework is charging. I have a 5070TI laptop I purchased for around 1200$ after a rebate.
Not only does the Framework 16 only offer the significantly weaker 5070 addon, it ends up totalling to about 2500$.
Maybe in 5 or 6 years Framework will sort out its QC and offer better GPUs, but it's not for me today.
> If you watch the sales on other laptops you can easily get similar specs for half of what framework is charging. I have a 5070TI laptop I purchased for around 1200$ after a rebate.
Just to be clear: You are comparing today's Framework regular prices to a laptop you bought months or years ago, on sale?
It's already the case. I plan to upgrade my old 13 with some parts from the pro next year. I won't have to pay a full machine for a new screen, battery or touchpad.
At the price of the RAM (I never fill my 32GB, why would I buy any?), not buying a new machine basically pays for the first laptop premium.
Next upgrade, I'll be saving money.
And giving money to an ecosystem I like, creating a stronger competitor with those values.
I don't think that is actually true - upgrading by selling your old laptop and buying a new one is still going to be cheaper than Framework's upgrades. I wish it wasn't but it is.
Not necessarily true, and not necessarily even a option sometimes.
In my case for example, the ThinkPad Z13 was the best laptop for me at the time. My main criteria generally is a top-tier AMD APU, first-class Linux support, machined aluminium body, 12-14" display. Only the ThinkPad Z13 met my criteria at the time, but there wasn't any in stock in my country. So my only option was to import it, and it was pretty expensive with all the import duties. A Framework would've been cheaper, but they didn't ship to my country and they also didn't have an aluminum chassis.
It was worth it though, I'm still using the ThinkPad and it's hands-down one of the best laptop+Linux experiences I've ever had.
It's now time for an upgrade. Unfortunately, Lenovo killed the Z13 line with no equivalent replacement, and everything else on the market currently has some or the other limitation (for me) - the most common limitation being lack of official Linux support.
Thankfully, Framework finally started shipping to my country this year, and their laptops also finally meet all my requirements (the previous models were all lacking the machined aluminum chassis). This also means that I may have found my "final" laptop at last, assuming Framework continues to deliver on their promise. Never again do I have to go hunting around for a Linux-first machined-aluminium top-tier 13" AMD laptop. And the best part is, I can just swap out the mainboard the next time I want to upgrade - which I guarantee will be way cheaper than buying a laptop that meets all my requirements, assuming it even exists.
But if you're not like me and you're fine with any random el cheapo Windows laptop, then yeah Framework is probably not for you.
> I hope framework lives up to its promise, but I don't see that happening any time soon.
That's already happened? I started with an 11th gen Intel tigerlake laptop with DDR4 memory and a glossy screen. I upgraded to the AMD 7040 with DDR5 memory when I destroyed my Intel board with a soldering iron, skipping the Intel 12th gen iteration in between and the AMD AI 300 generation after the 7040.
I upgraded my screen from the glossy to the matte screen, I skipped the 120hz rounded corner screen, and now I'm likely upgrading to the new screen released for the FW13 pro. I upgraded my wifi card to a card supporting wifi 7 and my SSD to a 2TB SSD.
I upgraded my hinges from the original 3.5kg to the 4.0kg hinges. I upgraded my top cover from the original to the CNC version.
So far all of these upgrades have been completely interchangeable. I could have done any combination of those upgrades (with the exception that the ram had to be upgraded at the same time as the motherboard because the ram slots are on the motherboard).
At this point, the only original parts remaining in my laptop are the battery, the bezel, and the metal clip that goes over the wifi card antenna connectors. My laptop is literally the ship of theseus, something that has not been possible in laptops before framework.
Based on these announcements, most of the new framework 13 pro upgrades are also completely interchangeable, the one exception being the bigger battery and the bottom cover need to be upgraded together but I could upgrade the input cover without upgrading the bottom cover and battery if I wanted.
Personally, I'm planning on taking my existing AMD 7040 board and dropping it into a completely new framework 13 pro chassis because I've already invested in 96GB of ram for this board. Since I'm going to get the whole pro chassis, I'll sadly have to replace my original 55Wh battery, but they can pry my bezel and metal wifi antenna clip from my cold dead hands!
My thinkpad doesn't even have upgradable RAM. And it's from 2017, not even a new trend. I think that's bare minimum for considering a laptop to be modular or even upgradeable.
You can absolutely take newer parts and put them in older models currently. You can find people in comment threads about framework on HN about doing it already. A day or two ago I saw a guy talking about swapping out his touchpad
This is what I don't get, among <Linux> computer uses, apple macs are a minority. I even went around at Linux conferences and counted, like 30-40%.
Why are they so so dedicated to being as much as a look and feel clone as Mac as possible?
I've got zero interest in a MacBook chaser. It's not like those are inaccessible to me. I've voluntarily said no to them. Why would I want someone else's imitation of it?
"If you can see here we've meticulously cloned every detail of the product you are definitionally not interested in because you are here!"
Because realistically in the laptop computer space Apple is obliterating everything else right now.
You can usually name a laptop that has some feature better than a macbook, but the overall package is so strong in so many avenues. Sound quality, screen quality (even without leaning on fancy new tech like OLED), trackpad quality.
Would you rather they target the Dell Latitude (Coil Whine, crazy power-off issues caused by C-States, poor thermals) or Thinkpad T-series (USB-C port stops charging and requires motherboard replacement, thermal issues, weak speakers, also coil whine, unstable radio) or HP’s elitebook (randomly doesn’t wake from suspend, hinge cracking and keycaps falling off even with light wear).
The other SKU’s are a race to the bottom, despite being more expensive for the base-system (which I find ironic).
It’s a poor north star to take a degrading product line as inspiration.
If I'm looking at the framework or the Thinkpad or anything else I've said "no thanks" to Apple laptops
This is my starting point. I've already turned the Mac down.
It's like turning down a very specific slice of cake and then being offered the same kind of cake from different vendors when really you just want a salad
If for hardware (because its not serviceable): then thats what the framework is fixing.
It is no secret that Apple hardware is superior right now. If you don’t like that as a fact then convince Dell/HP/Lenovo to do better. It is a valid north star for Framework in the current ecosystem to differentiate but chase the best in market.
—
Also, your comments are devoid of things that you actually feel like you’re missing. I think you’re just being snide because you've taken a position as “anything related to Apple is bad” which undermines a lot of genuine engineering they do.
It's not that, it's the follower product insistence. I've got a strong universal distaste for it.
Let's take an industry where there isn't any: showers. You go to a hotel or an Airbnb and you can't figure out how to turn on the shower. They're all so different
This is actually great. People are being very innovative and creative. That's human flourishing and ingenuity.
You go to the electronics store and all the laptops look the same with different logos on the back.
It's suffocating
I'm looking for creative diversity. It's a different set of values
The laptops I mentioned are also very different from Macbooks, but they are increasingly poor quality.
I maintain that its a valid choice, maybe once they have a truly solid product they can be creative. But theres no point being “super creative” and having no product, especially not a product people dislike.
Creative diversity doesn't pay bills. If you're going to sell one or two laptop designs, it damn well better be what the majority of people expect from a laptop.
While you're certainly within your right to buy different types of hardware, I don't think you're right to criticize convergent design. There already are wildly different laptop alternatives like the iPad, which is mainly held back by it's refusal to accept basic laptop features that Mac and PC users take for granted.
Most people who have the option of buying a Mac and still go with Windows/Linux machines do so because of the software. The hardware is almost universally agreed to be great, and a stronger overall package than most non-Mac options.
So making Mac-like hardware with Windows/Linux software is very much a great value proposition to many people.
> The hardware is almost universally agreed to be great
There is some agreement in terms of the M chips. There is no universl agreement re keyboard layout, screen technology and surfacing, trackpoints, touchscreens, 2-in-1 form factors, port selection, or aluminium unibodies.
>Because realistically in the laptop computer space Apple is obliterating everything else right now.
Probably right, seeing how bad the laptop world is nowadays. Even with its shitty chiclet keyboard and button-less trackpad, the M2 Pro I have to use at work trounces the XPSes my Windows colleagues have.
Still far from the Latitude e64x0 and old 6x series Thinkpads I had but well, they only win on the haptics and repairability level. Thankfully I kept an e6440 that still works "okay" with its Haswell i5 and 1080p IPS screen; the thermals and crappy Intel iGPU are the only thing I really lament.
This kind of mediocrity what holds the Linux world back by a big extent.
Arguably Apple makes the best hardware currently, spec wise and build quality wise too. You can ignore them and turn to mediocrity or you can strive to be like them and even better than them!
Framework says that we can be better in some departments (modularity) while also trying to match their (Apple’s) design and build quality.
So as a consumer one could easily purchase a MacBook. The money works the same as everyone else's.
When shopping for laptop from an alternative why would they be wanting a clone of the thing they've already affirmed they're not interested it by the nature of their shopping for alternatives?
Some people don't like the design, some don't like the ecosystem, keyboard, ports, ... there's a gestalt of decisions, a unified direction apple products go in.
I know the HN comment thread is people who don't see this as an ideology and who have drawers full of apple products and used to work there for years but see this as not a preference in the slightest ... I know who I'm talking to but I for some weird strange, neurodivergent reason, insist on reality.
Because you’re in the minority. The vast majority of the population views the build quality and materials of the macbook pro to be the standard by which all others are measured.
The only thing that’s surprising is that you see 30-40% of the laptops at a Linux conference are macbooks given how poor to non-existent the Linux support is for the newer Apple silicon models.
> Why are they so so dedicated to being as much as a look and feel clone as Mac as possible?
Because Mac hardware is the best in the market. I’m not really sure how you’d argue otherwise. Build quality, components etc are the best, it makes sense you’d want to match that.
A lot of Linux folks would love to own a MacBook that runs Linux. But such a thing doesn’t exist (at least at a first party support level). Not wanting one because it does look like a MacBook doesn’t make a ton of sense.
Most Linux users don't use Macs because running Linux on a Mac is difficult.
But I think many people would like to run Linux on Apple hardware. That's what I do and I haven't found better hardware yet. You just have to be careful in choosing something that's well supported.
If I had to change laptops (I didn't choose mine and I'm just lucky that M1 Macs are well supported by Asahi) I would definitely take a Framework and hope that it's sufficiently Apple-like hardware wise.
I run a lot of Linux on my macbook pro m1, in parallels if i want a desktop, in docker or podman if i don't need a desktop. I prefer linux on my macbook to my previous Thinkpad (p1 gen2, 64gb, 2tb, 4k oled, core 9i). The thinkpad feels less solid, battery life is horrible, keyboard of the thinkpad is surprisingly bad.
> I even went around at Linux conferences and counted, like 30-40%
I don't think the interest in the hardware is necessarily low among Linux users, it's just that MacBooks aren't built with Linux in mind at all, and you can't run Linux on it as easily as on something like a ThinkPad.
> cloned every detail of the product you are definitionally not interested in
I guess a lot of people actually are interested in Apple's hardware, and wish something like that existed, but running Linux. You can't extrapolate your own preferences to Framework's market.
I suspect a large number of computers would be thinkpad, primarily due to its repairability, which is the biggest selling point of framework by far. So, together, you cover a pretty significant chunk of the market
People are very specific about their keyboards and trackpads. There's people that still use x220s from like 14 years ago and refuse to give them up. Debian developers, JPL'ers, I've seen a bunch.
It's just a different chassis folks. I've thought seriously about just making that as a business, going all in
There are absolutely some people who avoid Macbooks not because of the hardware part so much as the MacOS part.
I'm a huge long time Linux guy, it's been my ride or die since the mid '90s. But when the M1 came out I got one to replace my "couch" chromebook (which was EOL), partly because I was dead tired of trying to get Divinci Resolve working on Linux. I dedicated days trying to get it to work, with nearly 30 years of full time Linux SysAdmin experience under my belt.
I've run primarily Thinkpads before that MacBook. The Mac hardware has been top notch for me, the Thinkpad is superior in repairability and upgradability, but the Mac I haven't had to do any repairs on. I don't baby it, but I also don't abuse it. There are infuriating things about MacOS, for sure.
I have the first gen Framework sitting in a drawer because of some issues and one of the nitpicks is the fact that it looks like a cheap knockoff of a decade old Macbook complete with the Temu apple logo on the front.
I'd rather they made something similar to a Thinkpad/Latitude. But then again, there seems to be a mass delusion that anything non-Apple is a graveyard of garbage regardless of the price. So they're catering to that market.
Maybe I've been extremely lucky in picking refurbed enterprise machines running Linux in the past decade that hasn't faced any of the issues people complain about.
framework advertises themselves as "laptops you own" and "linux-first". but they're misleading you. they're not actually driven by genuine values, but by marketing. unlike the other big manufacturers of linux-first laptops (novacustom, starlabs, system76) framework couldn't be bothered to open-source their firmware. this is despite demand from their own community [0] and the obvious importance it holds in the broader FOSS community (also the reason why they wouldn't be able to get QubesOS certified [1]). they don't deserve all the airtime they're getting
Don't think that's a fair assessment. They set forth to build modular, repairable laptops you could get parts from 3rd parties with design files available to 3d print or manufacture. They are sticking by those goals. They've expressed interest in open sourcing their firmware or supporting coreboot but that's very much a stretch goal and would take a team of lawyers and a lot of money to suss out
Supporting Coreboot is not easy, or "free" with newer chipsets. It makes sense that this takes a while to implement and I'm grateful that Framework doesn't neuter their chipset selection to only represent Coreboot-supported boards.
Everything I run on servers I also run on my laptop. Occasionally I get crashes or corruption because of the lack of ECC memory. I'd also like to be able to swap parts between a modular laptop and a home/small-office server, but again - I want ECC. If framework had a model with ECC I'd be all in!
Just want to add: Also there are multiple riscv boards but I'd want to caution the casual readers: I believe both the ARM and riscv boards suffer from very high power draw so you'll get poor battery life using them as laptops. They would only be worth it for people that have reasons to be running arm/riscv, but for the general consumer you are definitely going to want the x86 boards.
In this discussion the upgradability comes up often. Not to deny this aspect but in (my) reality it just doesn't matter.
I buy myself a Apple device every 1-2 years (alternating desktop, laptop, tablet) so that every device is in use by me for about 3-5 years and then gets handed down to the family (spouse, kids, parents). The demand is big enough that the alternative of selling the devices never occurred.
So the Apple devices are not disposed and in use for more than a decade while my devices are up to date. I think this happens in a lot of families. In mine it had been this way for about 30 years when I got a Performa 630 handed down from my dad.
I love my Framework laptop. The only thing I haven't seen mentioned in detail is the expansion card bay redesign. Current F13 expansion cards will pull out sometimes when you remove a USB cable, which is a real annoyance. F11 fixed this by creating optional set screws you can install on the inside of the machine that forces the expansion cards to stay engaged.
I know F13pro has redesigned the switches for removing expansion cards, and that the design was headed by the same person who did the F11, so I'm really hoping for set screws or some sort of similar "true" locking mechanism.
If anyone from Framework is reading this, would you be able to fill in some details?
I've had the framework 13 since batch 5 of their original first model and that has never happened to me once. Are you sure you're pushing the expansion cards _all the way_ in? They should click and the little button between the cards should pop up slightly more when the cards are fully inserted. It is certainly possible to have the cards visually look inserted and work normally but haven't actually been pushed in far enough to click/lock into place.
FWIW I've also replaced my chassis once, and never had this issue with either chassis.
Yeah if anything I've always had the opposite problem with my FW13 (12th gen Intel era) - removing the expansion cards is a pain in the ass with how tight it is. Curious if it got looser over time.
Regardless, glad to see they're just outright redesigned the expansion card mechanism, hopefully this stops issues on both ends of the spectrum.
Indeed, me too! I try to show my coworkers the cool expansion card system and end up embarrassing myself, struggling to remove the card for like 10 seconds.
> removing the expansion cards is a pain in the ass with how tight it is
Same experience here.
I've already ripped my thumb while trying to remove a card.
Now I use the back of iFixit's Jimmy to push them out.
Yeah they are, but I've got some admittedly snug USB cables on my charger, other cables don't do it. I've looked at the latch mechanism and it seems sharp and not worn down, and it clicks when I put it in. I suspect the button on the bottom gets pressed accidentally and unseats the latch.
Ah that could be it. My laptop mostly sits on my desk at home so there's not much opportunity for the button to get hit accidentally.
If it's what I'm thinking about, they showed it in one of their videos where they compare the old 13 to the Pro. It looked like a latch mechanism that you can operate with one hand but still keeps it secure in place.
Edit: this should be what you want to know - https://youtu.be/GnOpIQJnYWU?t=536
Yeah I watched the product videos I just want to know if there's a way to prevent accidental unlocks like the F11 has.
> Current F13 expansion cards will pull out sometimes
Just echoing what others have said here: I'm typing this on an original F13 I think from batch 6 which has had many upgrades but not the bottom cover. I have never had an expansion card pop out accidentally. I can't imagine that happening considering how difficult they are to remove. I usually have to lay the laptop flat upside down and use my multitool while holding the button to push a card out.
My wife has an F12 and she has also never had one pop out accidentally. Unlike mine, hers has locking switches to keep them in place, but even with the switches open they're pretty hard to remove.
Is it possible there was an intermediate redesign at some point that made them too easy to remove before they landed on the latest design?
> Current F13 expansion cards will pull out sometimes when you remove a USB cable
That feels like a defect in your particular machine, not a design flaw. With my laptop, the cards are actually incredibly difficult to remove most of the time. I can't imagine one of them coming loose by accident.
I own three and they all do it on occasion. Usually with a USB cable that tends to fit more snugly in the port. I mentioned it in another post in this thread but I think the button on the bottom gets pushed accidentally while being handled and the latch becomes unseated.
I have an early 13 and find the expansion cards take a lot of effort to remove, so maybe it’s a batch thing. Seems like the new 13 redesigned it a bit anyway. I’ll probably get the new bottom so I can use the new battery.
I like their openness on hardware design. They open sourced their design under CC-BY-4.0 (surprisingly no NC!) in hope that it could enable reuse [1].
However, the whole thing is overpriced. Quoting kingsleyopara's comment 4 days ago [2],
[1]: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-13[2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47852620
Cost of the Macbook Pro 14 in 2031: another £1999
Cost of the Framework 13 upgrade kit in 2031: £499
The point of the upgradability and openness of the design is that you only have to pay that cost once, instead of every time you buy a laptop. How much will it cost to upgrade a MacBook's RAM if you decide you need more after a year or two? £2099?
Well you can sell your old MacBook. And they hold their value pretty well. So I don’t know if framework would actually come out ahead financially.
I just did a quick check: a 2022 Macbook pro M1 with 1tb and 16gb ram goes for 1119 euros on eBay. A new M5 mbp with the same ram and disk is 1899 euros, so 709 difference. And you get a whole new machine not just a cpu upgrade.
What’s the advantage of buying a used MacBook if, since they hold their value well, it won’t be much cheaper than a new one?
Because they are indeed still cheaper? I'm not sure what you're getting at with your question. You can look up values for older Macs if you just don't want to believe it …
Why wouldn’t I want to “believe it”? Isn’t that the premise my entire question is based on? I’m not sure what you’re getting at with your misdirection.
They also hold their performance well so for some people it’s worth saving a few hundred bucks plus sales tax by buying a used one.
Its like a Tesla, their values only go up. Stop asking questions, this is a legitimate investment.
An investment lol
Yup. Primary reason I just pulled the trigger for framework.
They've proven that they'll keep upgradability going over a few generations which means I'll be buying all my updates from them.
Repair cost is worth noting too. If your keyboard breaks:
Macbook Pro - You pay for a new topcase assembly
Framework Pro - You pay a new keyboard
Comparing Apples to Oranges.
Apple only makes disposable devices now. They're a megacorp can negotiate massive discounts at every stage of the supply chain.
I've helped several people in the last few years set up new Macs, replacing ones that were only 1-2 years old, because they ran out of storage.
Additionally, the comparison doesn't even hold true when you need more than the base configs from Apple, given their ridiculous upgrade pricing. I'm writing this on a $6,000USD M3 MBP with 128gb/4tb. It would have been substantially cheaper to build out on a Framework.
> Apple only makes disposable devices now.
This is genuinely hilarious to say this with a straight face
IMO it’s a reasonable point to make when compared to something like the Framework. And it took legal action to get them to offer battery replacements for iPhones, I don’t think you can really claim they’re passionate about component reuse.
They are disposable, they just last way longer than any of their competitors. They are not on the level of upgradability as the Framework (anymore).
> "[...] they just last way longer than any of their competitors."
Citations, please.
In the meantime, an anecdote: My oldest modern-era (64-bit) daily driver is one I use heavily since 15 years. An HP, 16 or 17 years old. The only component that ever caked-out in that bird was the original mechanical hard drive, which died just this year. Similar experiences with IBM/Lenovo, Panasonic and Fujitsu. Apple laptops I don't even look at for they don't offer anything I need.
Another anecdote: I had an HP Laptop 15 years ago that only lasted 1 year.
Even putting aside the whole repairability thing, with the Mac you’re stuck with Apple Silicon. Apple’s processors are mostly awesome, of course, but using one does mean you’re stuck with macOS—Asahi Linux seems to be a ways away from M5 support.
What sells me on it is I get to take a spare Gen4 m.2 ssd out of my gaming PC I wasn't fully utilizing instead of paying for 1TB of storage.
Being able to drive the price down by re-using parts I already have is a pretty big selling point, IMO.
Also, I think Apple is benefitting from scale, since they're able to maintain the (usually too high) storage and memory prices they've had for years. At this moment in time, framework have the misfortune of being forced to pass inflated wholesale prices onto the consumer.
Make this comparison one calendar year ago and the F13 Pro could very easily beat the MBP on price spec-for-spec.
The MacBook's aren't a fungible alternative as they lock you into MacOS effectively and don't use Intel and AMD processors.
Also, I'm not sure what a good alternative is these days to the Framework 13 Pro. I DO NOT USE GLOSS SCREENS on productivity laptops(the only reason I have a laptop). Heck, my LG OLED monitor and top-end Samsung s95f OLED TV are matte as well due to the lighting in my space; I like light!
That means any time I'm looking at laptops I've having to re-asses the landscape because year-to-year manufactures flip-flop between screen finish even in their productivity lines. The Asus Zenbook looks good, but it's all gloss screens. I'm looking at the latest crop of Thinkbook and they don't even have the AMD 350 as an option right now; and I'm not sure about the display finish.
It's not so easy to compare like-for-like when it's apples and oranges.
This always seems to come up in discussions about Framework.
The extra cost is more than made up in not having to buy a full new computer every few years, and in being able to swap out the keyboard for $40 if it breaks.
SSD and RAM prices are wacky nowadays, but when I got my DIY framework 13, it was MUCH cheaper than the apple equivalent if you wanted more than the minimum specs (in my case, 32GB RAM + 2TB SSD). Main downside was software/firmware that didn't work well with Framework hardware
I would still get a Framework rather than a MacBook. A couple of hundred dollars for the openness, repairability, and upgradability is a great deal.
my main eyebrow raise on price comes from pre-built being cheaper than DIY version
how does that even work?
I mean, yeah. There's a reason other companies don't focus on modularity or repairability. Its not free.
We're not the target audience for this thing, but I'm at least happy there's a way people can put their money where their mouth is.
Apple could make a modular device to very close to the same price they do their current laptop. Its much more about size and supply chain then some minor changes in design. Maybe a little bit more extensive, but not more then 5-10%. They don't make it modular because they don't want it to be modular.
Repairability often comes at the cost of size, weight, production cost, or a combination of them.
I had to sell my 2016 MacBook Pro because Apple made a defective keyboard design and I had no recourse other than having it replaced with the same defective design. This repair required the replacement of the entire top case of the computer including a number of unrelated components. Without the widespread negative press and repair program, this repair would have cost hundreds of dollars.
I am willing to pay more for a product made by a company whose respect for its customers manifests itself in the design of the product.
I am willing to pay more for a product that has first-class support for non-commercial operating systems that aren’t trying to collect data and sell services.
Lately it’s become obvious to me that Linux is a better desktop experience than macOS or Windows. Liquid Glass ruined my Mac, and Windows is…well, I only ever ran it so I could play games.
Sure, Apple is cheaper, because they make more money selling you services than selling Macs and iPads combined. These are services that are advertised to you within basic settings panels of the operating system, including apps like News that cannot be uninstalled (even Microsoft allows you to uninstall apps like that!)
I don’t want to pay less for a Mac that feels slick during the warranty period but has no upgrade path and no reasonably priced way to repair even minor issues.
> the whole thing is overpriced
Economy of scale... they cannot make (or sell) anywhere near as many as Apple does, so of course it's going to be more expensive. Just like that "Made in USA" grill brush that costs 75 dollars (but guess where the machines that make it come from).
IMO, Apple is already the standard of overpriced compared to other laptop vendors, and Framework is even more overpriced than the overpricer!
Macbooks were not overpriced since M1 Air released in 2020. Of course Apple was not competing in low-end segment back then, but $1200-$1400 M1 just outperformed all the competitors for years. Now with Neo release they basically outplayed everyone in low-end segment.
Framework offer is completely different - they sell you upgradable computer that supports your right to repair.
I mean yeah they’re right but it’s not like the difference is particularly staggering. And unfortunately having control and quality runs a premium these days.
Plus depending on what you’re upgrading it could very well save you money in the long run, as the parts you can replace or upgrade yourself in an MBpro are few and far between. The few things you can replace often cost an arm and a leg and require way more technical expertise than a framework demands.
Also, Mac lock in. Not something to lightly ignore. Framework will run basically anything except MacOS.
I'm not hating on Framework and I'm genuinely rooting for them but the last part is a bit of a weird PRO to me.
What else can it run besides Windows and insert-long-list-of-Linux-distros-here compared to your run of the mill laptop? Can it run OpenBSD, NetBSD or FreeBSD without issues? How about Haiku if we're feeling crazy?
Something that I think is a better PRO (if we're talking operating systems) is that from what I understand (though I might be wrong) is that you could use the Storage Expansion Card and have Windows installed on it for those moments when you have to boot into Windows in anger due to some use case not served by Linux (Adobe Reader I'm looking at you). Now that's nifty to me.
I do not have a framework so I have not looked at the entire list of what OS’s it can support as I’m only interested in pop and bazzite these days. It may very well support those you listed
Yeah, I've checked and I came across this thread https://community.frame.work/t/alternative-oses/71944/4 on the Framework forums that confirms that people are actively interested in running more than Windows and Linux. The future is bright.
RE: Pop and Bazzite
I'm really excited for COSMIC, did you find it good enough to daily drive yet? I've been watching from the sidelines but I haven't taken the plunge to try it.
Not familiar at all! Need to take a look. First glance seems neat
Interesting that the new laptop is selling beyond their expectation, and that the Ubuntu version is outselling the Windows one. Maybe their customer base is a "niche", but it seems to be one that makes them good coin nevertheless.
Does anyone know how the Intel and AMD offerings compare?
I take it battery life is better on Intel.
What about performance for different tasks, such as coding, compiling, etc. What about local LLMs? Do both platforms have "unified memory" à la Apple Silicon? Neither?
It looks like Intel's new Panther Lake chips are a hit, they have amazing battery life and performance compared to their AMD and ARM equivalents (excluding Apple ofc), and the the integrated graphics is better than AMD, ARM, or Apple.
They do not have integrated memory, but by using LPCAMM2 they get better memory speeds than any laptops using the usual SODIMM memory modules.
It's nice to see Intel on the upswing again, more competition is always a good thing.
> they get better memory speeds
I saw that, but how does that work for GPU workloads? Either games of AI, really. Do I need to set a value on the BIOS for how much of the memory is split between RAM and VRAM?
AMD unfortunately didn't actually get faster this gen. panther lake is faster than zen5 mobile for both cpu and GPU (except for workloads where avx512 matters)
Yes it was a bit weird how the latest generation AMD laptop chip was a sideways step. I blame the useless NPU wasting silicon, but what do I know.
I still got it as it was better than Intel's last year's offering, and it's still a fine chip. But kind of highlights how good the previous 7000 series chip was.
if I understood right, the AMD chip is more power hungry due to not having the ultra-low-energy cores, and doesn’t support the new USB-4 standard.
Benchmarks have to wait until the actual Intel chip is out.
The AMD board support USB4 40gbps in 2 of the 4 expansion slots.
7040: https://knowledgebase.frame.work/expansion-card-functionalit...
AI 300: https://knowledgebase.frame.work/expansion-card-functionalit...
Pro with AI 300: https://knowledgebase.frame.work/expansion-card-functionalit...
The nice part about the Intel board is all 4 ports support usb4/thunderbolt 4 so all 4 ports are completely interchangeable whereas on the AMD board I need to remember to plug my dock into the back ports closer to the hinge.
Thanks for checking! I am on my phone and I just remembered that the connectivity was somehow less. :)
My 7840u can do USB4 with PCIe lanes, and that's from 2023. Of course AMD can do USB4.
Amd versions can not suspend to RAM, I heard.
You mean just suspend as in 'sleep'? Like closing the lid on a macbook. I am doing that with the regular framework 13 (same amd though) multiple times a day.
Not sure why would I preorder a laptop of all things. It looks interesting, but I’d rather wait until the reviews are out.
Because there’s a hardware shortage going on. I can see why somebody who needs a new machine commits early.
Also, with hardware being now more expensive, just being able to swap parts for upgrades or repairs is way more appealing than before.
Not to mention they don't spend time with marketing fluff about AI, which in the current market is winning them some clients.
But I also think the fact that they have been here for a long time now, and they got the pro backward compatible with the old 13 means people trust them now. They delivered.
I'd pre-order one, but not with RAM. It might go up more, but I'm hoping not...
We'll see what happens when it ships.
Honestly I expect significantly cheaper laptops from other oems.
Sure, but if you factor in the possibility of never having to do a full system upgrade again, and instead just upgrading individual parts (including the chassis) as needed, the long term cost of ownership would be way lower if you commit to framework
Everything I've read about Frameworks quality control makes the above very doubtful.
If you watch the sales on other laptops you can easily get similar specs for half of what framework is charging. I have a 5070TI laptop I purchased for around 1200$ after a rebate.
Not only does the Framework 16 only offer the significantly weaker 5070 addon, it ends up totalling to about 2500$.
Maybe in 5 or 6 years Framework will sort out its QC and offer better GPUs, but it's not for me today.
> If you watch the sales on other laptops you can easily get similar specs for half of what framework is charging. I have a 5070TI laptop I purchased for around 1200$ after a rebate.
Just to be clear: You are comparing today's Framework regular prices to a laptop you bought months or years ago, on sale?
I'm comparing the Framework 16's price with its addon to what was competing in the market around December 2025.
Almost every Windows laptop is perpetually on sale after the first few months.
If we want to crank it up a notch,
MSI Raider 16 Max HX (2026): 16" QHD+ 240Hz OLED, Intel Ultra 9 290HX Plus, RTX 5080, 32GB DDR5, 1TB SSD $2299.99 https://slickdeals.net/f/19458276-msi-raider-16-max-hx-2026-...
A 5080 laptop with 16 GB of VRAM Vs about 3000$ for the Framework with a 5070 and 8 GB of VRAM.
It's already the case. I plan to upgrade my old 13 with some parts from the pro next year. I won't have to pay a full machine for a new screen, battery or touchpad.
At the price of the RAM (I never fill my 32GB, why would I buy any?), not buying a new machine basically pays for the first laptop premium.
Next upgrade, I'll be saving money.
And giving money to an ecosystem I like, creating a stronger competitor with those values.
Love it.
Time value of money comes to mind for this, though
On 100k yeah, on 1k no.
I don't think that is actually true - upgrading by selling your old laptop and buying a new one is still going to be cheaper than Framework's upgrades. I wish it wasn't but it is.
Not necessarily true, and not necessarily even a option sometimes.
In my case for example, the ThinkPad Z13 was the best laptop for me at the time. My main criteria generally is a top-tier AMD APU, first-class Linux support, machined aluminium body, 12-14" display. Only the ThinkPad Z13 met my criteria at the time, but there wasn't any in stock in my country. So my only option was to import it, and it was pretty expensive with all the import duties. A Framework would've been cheaper, but they didn't ship to my country and they also didn't have an aluminum chassis.
It was worth it though, I'm still using the ThinkPad and it's hands-down one of the best laptop+Linux experiences I've ever had.
It's now time for an upgrade. Unfortunately, Lenovo killed the Z13 line with no equivalent replacement, and everything else on the market currently has some or the other limitation (for me) - the most common limitation being lack of official Linux support.
Thankfully, Framework finally started shipping to my country this year, and their laptops also finally meet all my requirements (the previous models were all lacking the machined aluminum chassis). This also means that I may have found my "final" laptop at last, assuming Framework continues to deliver on their promise. Never again do I have to go hunting around for a Linux-first machined-aluminium top-tier 13" AMD laptop. And the best part is, I can just swap out the mainboard the next time I want to upgrade - which I guarantee will be way cheaper than buying a laptop that meets all my requirements, assuming it even exists.
But if you're not like me and you're fine with any random el cheapo Windows laptop, then yeah Framework is probably not for you.
Apples to oranges. NO other OEM makes a modular laptop yet.
You can swap the screen on some ThinkPads.
I hope framework lives up to its promise, but I don't see that happening any time soon.
> I hope framework lives up to its promise, but I don't see that happening any time soon.
That's already happened? I started with an 11th gen Intel tigerlake laptop with DDR4 memory and a glossy screen. I upgraded to the AMD 7040 with DDR5 memory when I destroyed my Intel board with a soldering iron, skipping the Intel 12th gen iteration in between and the AMD AI 300 generation after the 7040.
I upgraded my screen from the glossy to the matte screen, I skipped the 120hz rounded corner screen, and now I'm likely upgrading to the new screen released for the FW13 pro. I upgraded my wifi card to a card supporting wifi 7 and my SSD to a 2TB SSD.
I upgraded my hinges from the original 3.5kg to the 4.0kg hinges. I upgraded my top cover from the original to the CNC version.
So far all of these upgrades have been completely interchangeable. I could have done any combination of those upgrades (with the exception that the ram had to be upgraded at the same time as the motherboard because the ram slots are on the motherboard).
At this point, the only original parts remaining in my laptop are the battery, the bezel, and the metal clip that goes over the wifi card antenna connectors. My laptop is literally the ship of theseus, something that has not been possible in laptops before framework.
Based on these announcements, most of the new framework 13 pro upgrades are also completely interchangeable, the one exception being the bigger battery and the bottom cover need to be upgraded together but I could upgrade the input cover without upgrading the bottom cover and battery if I wanted.
Personally, I'm planning on taking my existing AMD 7040 board and dropping it into a completely new framework 13 pro chassis because I've already invested in 96GB of ram for this board. Since I'm going to get the whole pro chassis, I'll sadly have to replace my original 55Wh battery, but they can pry my bezel and metal wifi antenna clip from my cold dead hands!
This looks like you enjoy the process.
For me I aggressively follow laptop deals. For the last gen you can get competing laptops for the price of the main board alone.
Of course, I hope I'm wrong.
Buying used ThinkPads on eBay and installing Linux is closer to sustainability than buying into a new ecosystem of expensive and hard to find parts.
Or we could say “Thinkpads should be more modular, repairable, and upgradable.” Some of us want to support that approach.
My thinkpad doesn't even have upgradable RAM. And it's from 2017, not even a new trend. I think that's bare minimum for considering a laptop to be modular or even upgradeable.
What promise are they not living up to?
You can absolutely take newer parts and put them in older models currently. You can find people in comment threads about framework on HN about doing it already. A day or two ago I saw a guy talking about swapping out his touchpad
At this point RAM prices dwarf everything else in a system, at least for me
This is what I don't get, among <Linux> computer uses, apple macs are a minority. I even went around at Linux conferences and counted, like 30-40%.
Why are they so so dedicated to being as much as a look and feel clone as Mac as possible?
I've got zero interest in a MacBook chaser. It's not like those are inaccessible to me. I've voluntarily said no to them. Why would I want someone else's imitation of it?
"If you can see here we've meticulously cloned every detail of the product you are definitionally not interested in because you are here!"
Because realistically in the laptop computer space Apple is obliterating everything else right now.
You can usually name a laptop that has some feature better than a macbook, but the overall package is so strong in so many avenues. Sound quality, screen quality (even without leaning on fancy new tech like OLED), trackpad quality.
Would you rather they target the Dell Latitude (Coil Whine, crazy power-off issues caused by C-States, poor thermals) or Thinkpad T-series (USB-C port stops charging and requires motherboard replacement, thermal issues, weak speakers, also coil whine, unstable radio) or HP’s elitebook (randomly doesn’t wake from suspend, hinge cracking and keycaps falling off even with light wear).
The other SKU’s are a race to the bottom, despite being more expensive for the base-system (which I find ironic).
It’s a poor north star to take a degrading product line as inspiration.
But that doesn't matter.
If I'm looking at the framework or the Thinkpad or anything else I've said "no thanks" to Apple laptops
This is my starting point. I've already turned the Mac down.
It's like turning down a very specific slice of cake and then being offered the same kind of cake from different vendors when really you just want a salad
Why?
If for software: thats the point.
If for hardware (because its not serviceable): then thats what the framework is fixing.
It is no secret that Apple hardware is superior right now. If you don’t like that as a fact then convince Dell/HP/Lenovo to do better. It is a valid north star for Framework in the current ecosystem to differentiate but chase the best in market.
—
Also, your comments are devoid of things that you actually feel like you’re missing. I think you’re just being snide because you've taken a position as “anything related to Apple is bad” which undermines a lot of genuine engineering they do.
It's not that, it's the follower product insistence. I've got a strong universal distaste for it.
Let's take an industry where there isn't any: showers. You go to a hotel or an Airbnb and you can't figure out how to turn on the shower. They're all so different
This is actually great. People are being very innovative and creative. That's human flourishing and ingenuity.
You go to the electronics store and all the laptops look the same with different logos on the back.
It's suffocating
I'm looking for creative diversity. It's a different set of values
Sure, and those exist.
MNT Reform for example; https://mntre.com/
The laptops I mentioned are also very different from Macbooks, but they are increasingly poor quality.
I maintain that its a valid choice, maybe once they have a truly solid product they can be creative. But theres no point being “super creative” and having no product, especially not a product people dislike.
Creative diversity doesn't pay bills. If you're going to sell one or two laptop designs, it damn well better be what the majority of people expect from a laptop.
While you're certainly within your right to buy different types of hardware, I don't think you're right to criticize convergent design. There already are wildly different laptop alternatives like the iPad, which is mainly held back by it's refusal to accept basic laptop features that Mac and PC users take for granted.
Most people who have the option of buying a Mac and still go with Windows/Linux machines do so because of the software. The hardware is almost universally agreed to be great, and a stronger overall package than most non-Mac options.
So making Mac-like hardware with Windows/Linux software is very much a great value proposition to many people.
> The hardware is almost universally agreed to be great
There is some agreement in terms of the M chips. There is no universl agreement re keyboard layout, screen technology and surfacing, trackpoints, touchscreens, 2-in-1 form factors, port selection, or aluminium unibodies.
>Because realistically in the laptop computer space Apple is obliterating everything else right now.
Probably right, seeing how bad the laptop world is nowadays. Even with its shitty chiclet keyboard and button-less trackpad, the M2 Pro I have to use at work trounces the XPSes my Windows colleagues have.
Still far from the Latitude e64x0 and old 6x series Thinkpads I had but well, they only win on the haptics and repairability level. Thankfully I kept an e6440 that still works "okay" with its Haswell i5 and 1080p IPS screen; the thermals and crappy Intel iGPU are the only thing I really lament.
Wish there was someone willing to make custom mainboards and panel upgrades for old laptops.
I’d still be using an x201s.
Best laptop I ever owned, everything else has been a downgrade build-wise.
But I need the battery and performance.
This kind of mediocrity what holds the Linux world back by a big extent. Arguably Apple makes the best hardware currently, spec wise and build quality wise too. You can ignore them and turn to mediocrity or you can strive to be like them and even better than them! Framework says that we can be better in some departments (modularity) while also trying to match their (Apple’s) design and build quality.
So as a consumer one could easily purchase a MacBook. The money works the same as everyone else's.
When shopping for laptop from an alternative why would they be wanting a clone of the thing they've already affirmed they're not interested it by the nature of their shopping for alternatives?
So you are not the target audience for this.
The target is people who would buy a MacBook but want to run Linux.
There are many people who turn down the MacBook, not because of build quality, or design, but because it does not support Linux.
Some people don't like the design, some don't like the ecosystem, keyboard, ports, ... there's a gestalt of decisions, a unified direction apple products go in.
I know the HN comment thread is people who don't see this as an ideology and who have drawers full of apple products and used to work there for years but see this as not a preference in the slightest ... I know who I'm talking to but I for some weird strange, neurodivergent reason, insist on reality.
Because you’re in the minority. The vast majority of the population views the build quality and materials of the macbook pro to be the standard by which all others are measured.
The only thing that’s surprising is that you see 30-40% of the laptops at a Linux conference are macbooks given how poor to non-existent the Linux support is for the newer Apple silicon models.
Well not everyone is using Linux at a Linux conference. It's just a Linux majority space, not exclusive
> Why are they so so dedicated to being as much as a look and feel clone as Mac as possible?
Because Mac hardware is the best in the market. I’m not really sure how you’d argue otherwise. Build quality, components etc are the best, it makes sense you’d want to match that.
A lot of Linux folks would love to own a MacBook that runs Linux. But such a thing doesn’t exist (at least at a first party support level). Not wanting one because it does look like a MacBook doesn’t make a ton of sense.
Most Linux users don't use Macs because running Linux on a Mac is difficult.
But I think many people would like to run Linux on Apple hardware. That's what I do and I haven't found better hardware yet. You just have to be careful in choosing something that's well supported.
If I had to change laptops (I didn't choose mine and I'm just lucky that M1 Macs are well supported by Asahi) I would definitely take a Framework and hope that it's sufficiently Apple-like hardware wise.
I run a lot of Linux on my macbook pro m1, in parallels if i want a desktop, in docker or podman if i don't need a desktop. I prefer linux on my macbook to my previous Thinkpad (p1 gen2, 64gb, 2tb, 4k oled, core 9i). The thinkpad feels less solid, battery life is horrible, keyboard of the thinkpad is surprisingly bad.
> I even went around at Linux conferences and counted, like 30-40%
I don't think the interest in the hardware is necessarily low among Linux users, it's just that MacBooks aren't built with Linux in mind at all, and you can't run Linux on it as easily as on something like a ThinkPad.
> cloned every detail of the product you are definitionally not interested in
I guess a lot of people actually are interested in Apple's hardware, and wish something like that existed, but running Linux. You can't extrapolate your own preferences to Framework's market.
I suspect a large number of computers would be thinkpad, primarily due to its repairability, which is the biggest selling point of framework by far. So, together, you cover a pretty significant chunk of the market
People are very specific about their keyboards and trackpads. There's people that still use x220s from like 14 years ago and refuse to give them up. Debian developers, JPL'ers, I've seen a bunch.
It's just a different chassis folks. I've thought seriously about just making that as a business, going all in
Supposedly framework is ok with it
You wouldn't understand unless you've used one for a few months. There is alot to like and the dream is to have any "normal" laptop like it
Been using their latest models for work for the past 5 years, I still use a Latitude for personal work ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe because I don't want my personal machine to turn into a brick if the storage/memory fails.
You’re confusing the look of the device with the feel of the OS.
There are absolutely some people who avoid Macbooks not because of the hardware part so much as the MacOS part.
I'm a huge long time Linux guy, it's been my ride or die since the mid '90s. But when the M1 came out I got one to replace my "couch" chromebook (which was EOL), partly because I was dead tired of trying to get Divinci Resolve working on Linux. I dedicated days trying to get it to work, with nearly 30 years of full time Linux SysAdmin experience under my belt.
I've run primarily Thinkpads before that MacBook. The Mac hardware has been top notch for me, the Thinkpad is superior in repairability and upgradability, but the Mac I haven't had to do any repairs on. I don't baby it, but I also don't abuse it. There are infuriating things about MacOS, for sure.
+1
I have the first gen Framework sitting in a drawer because of some issues and one of the nitpicks is the fact that it looks like a cheap knockoff of a decade old Macbook complete with the Temu apple logo on the front.
I'd rather they made something similar to a Thinkpad/Latitude. But then again, there seems to be a mass delusion that anything non-Apple is a graveyard of garbage regardless of the price. So they're catering to that market.
Maybe I've been extremely lucky in picking refurbed enterprise machines running Linux in the past decade that hasn't faced any of the issues people complain about.
framework advertises themselves as "laptops you own" and "linux-first". but they're misleading you. they're not actually driven by genuine values, but by marketing. unlike the other big manufacturers of linux-first laptops (novacustom, starlabs, system76) framework couldn't be bothered to open-source their firmware. this is despite demand from their own community [0] and the obvious importance it holds in the broader FOSS community (also the reason why they wouldn't be able to get QubesOS certified [1]). they don't deserve all the airtime they're getting
[0] https://community.frame.work/t/responded-coreboot-on-the-fra...
[1] https://doc.qubes-os.org/en/latest/user/hardware/certified-h...
Don't think that's a fair assessment. They set forth to build modular, repairable laptops you could get parts from 3rd parties with design files available to 3d print or manufacture. They are sticking by those goals. They've expressed interest in open sourcing their firmware or supporting coreboot but that's very much a stretch goal and would take a team of lawyers and a lot of money to suss out
Supporting Coreboot is not easy, or "free" with newer chipsets. It makes sense that this takes a while to implement and I'm grateful that Framework doesn't neuter their chipset selection to only represent Coreboot-supported boards.
Everything I run on servers I also run on my laptop. Occasionally I get crashes or corruption because of the lack of ECC memory. I'd also like to be able to swap parts between a modular laptop and a home/small-office server, but again - I want ECC. If framework had a model with ECC I'd be all in!
Would it ever be possible to have this kind of laptops but with ARM CPUs?
You might be interested in this: https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2026/the-first-good-raspbe...
There are already 3rd party boards with ARM chips
Just want to add: Also there are multiple riscv boards but I'd want to caution the casual readers: I believe both the ARM and riscv boards suffer from very high power draw so you'll get poor battery life using them as laptops. They would only be worth it for people that have reasons to be running arm/riscv, but for the general consumer you are definitely going to want the x86 boards.
Discussion:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47852177