I think this just further confuses end users and is another reason we should get rid of tipping culture.
Tips are currently serving several purposes in users' minds:
1. earned for great service
2. to make up for lower base pay (tipped min wage is lower in many US states)
3. to help employees who they feel aren't making enough
Now reasons #2 and #3 are no longer true because driers are now fairly (IMHO) compensated through the guaranteed wage. How many users actually know about this?
Sure more money is flowing into the drivers' pockets, but doesn't this just continue to muddle the usage of tips and ultimately cost the consumer more?
Yeah, the change was to force the apps to include a tip option before the food arrived, which users interpret as the "don't spit in my food" option. Of _course_ tips went up when the apps were forced to make this change.
Before the guaranteed wages all the apps had the tip option at checkout.
When NYC enforced a liveable wage, the delivery apps raised holy hell including intrusive popups in the ads telling you how horrible it was for you the innocent consumer, plus added a special extra charge to rub it in.
They ALSO at this time moved the tip to post-checkout which was just an asshole, anti-driver move, explicitly to punish drivers. Tip before checkout was the norm and they changed it in an openly spiteful move.
Even those who like tipping tipped less because now you had to remember to go back to your app to tip. The net effect of the spiteful move was to punish drivers.
I am looking forward to the day when food delivery transport robots fully replace human delivery workers, because the robots don't need to be tipped and have zero chance of spitting in my food if I don't tip them.
I was at a sports stadium last month and I went to get a bottle of water - the whole thing was completely automated. I picked up a bottle of water off the shelf, scanned it and presented my card, no human involved.
I usually give a tip because the delivery drivers here are actual teenagers not illegal immigrants.
We all remember doing those jobs so it's societal nostalgia.
I had honestly forgotten about reason #1 as I haven't heard anyone mentioning the service when leaving a tip in decades. IMO that's dying boomer behavior. Everyone understands that tipped workers are universally underpaid, and either tip generously in solidarity (if they are normal or vaguely left wing/liberal) or tip the minimum they can get away with socially or legally (if they misanthropes or right wingers). The tip isn't an optional part of the bill -- withholding it is deliberately underpaying vulnerable workers who probably have little control over their conditions of work (and therefore the level of service) anyway, so it doesn't even work as an incentive. If you don't like this, cook your own food.
When service work is strongly organized and represented we can start talking about changing tipping culture.
What is the evidence that tipped workers are universally underpaid? Compared to who and against what benchmark? In the law passed by the city, the drivers are now very well compensated -- and guaranteed that compensation (something I believe is important).
Per the formulation in my post, that puts you in the misanthrope/right winger category, but presumably you are asking because in this case you don't feel that's right as some kind of gotcha.
You could also out avoid situations that require tipping. Like using the grocery store salad bar doesn’t require tipping, so eat lunch there rather than going to a local restaurant.
I avoid fast food places that require tips also, it just seems weird to me. You can choose where to spend your money, it’s not misanthropic to just opt out.
1. If "tips" in the US are "compulsory" because customers should make up for the poor wage the delivery people get paid, why is there still a compulsion for tipping now as the wages have been increased (and presumably is "fair")?
2. And if the wages are "fair" now, why should a customer be forced to tip when they are making an order, rather than after they have received the order and can determine if the worker deserved a tip for satisfactory or exemplary service?
I absolutely understand the need to regulate corporates to ensure that they didn't steal the tips or lower their workers' salary based on it. My questions pertain to consumer rights. The government has rightly addressed the needs of the workers and preserved their right to a "fair" wage. But how is regulation that forces customers to tip at checkout itself (even before one has experienced the service) fair to the customers? (And ofcourse, by asking for a tip before checkout, you are forcing customers to give tip because apparently delivery people can see if someone has tipped or not before accepting an order, and most delivery people do not accept orders without tips or tend to de-prioritise it). Democracy is meant to balance everyone's right. Instead of forcing corporates to pay a fair wage, the government has (yet again) transferred part of the burden to customers (this time directly, instead of indirectly through taxes) and even thinks this is something to brags about:
> ... show tips nearly doubled after the city started enforcing the law and were “proof” that the apps were wrong about New Yorkers’ willingness to tip delivery drivers ... New Yorkers are consumers, but we are workers too. We want to support our neighbors who bring meals, groceries, and medicine to our doors.
Yeah, right - if someone is forced to tip because the system is designed around tips, that's not good grace driving the customers to tip. I am left to believe that this was a deliberate concession made to the corporates because it is in their interest that delivery people earn more (as long as they don't have to pay for it). So while the government maybe did do a good job in balancing the rights of the corporates and the workers, it has ignored the rights of consumers and deliberately sacrificed it.
Agree 100%. We have reached a point where delivery costs almost match the food costs. It's cheaper for me to drive to the restaurant and pick up the order. Even then the restaurant prompts to leave a tip.
I vaguely remember seeing a post on Reddit showing a vending machine asking for a tip.
> It's cheaper for me to drive to the restaurant and pick up the order
Of course it is... were you expecting delivery companies to perform magic while humans are required to bring you your food?
If a burrito costs $15, it may cost $30 to have it delivered from 20 minutes away; the alternative is 40 minutes of your time and $15. The thesis of delivery companies is that you value 40 minutes of your time more than $15.
the whole economic ecosystem is sinking due to a spiral of low-participation, low-quality services and rising backend prices for all the legally mandated support. Lots of third world countries have a more thriving street vendor situation now than major US cities. In the local news here (California), there is a monthly column of restaurant closings -- in a place known for tourism and food.
Arguments about mandatory tipping are an expression of a power struggle between large companies, small business, workers and customers. As usual, the predominant news available to consumers paints the details in incomplete ways.. Journalists are not doing original economic research, and powers-that-be won't speak plainly.
ps- undocumented workers in retail food and commercial food supply are certainly part of this story in the USA.
Solutions are simple and we keep making this hard:
1. Stop raising minimum wage. It doesn't do what you think it does. And if hang around any politicians' backoffices anyway, you realize the only reason this is ever raised is to manipulate voter turnout. Not difficult, just difficult to explain since it deals with second and third order consequences.
2. Do not let employers include tips as part of meeting minimum wage law. If minimum wage is $8/hr, then employers must pay $8/hr. Wages are paid by employers. Tips are not paid by employers. Also not difficult.
3. No Taxes on tips, anywhere. These aren't wages, and are not subject to wage or payroll taxes. Also, not difficult.
And lastly, tips before services rendered are stupid. Everyone knows it and is confused by it. It's something that needs to go away, but that isn't something that should be regulated into existence.
1) (Neutral) I'd need to see more evidence of that.
2) (Unambiguously yes) If your business does not make financial sense without tips, then it isn't a business. There are many businesses that can't currently compete with businesses' that tip, see next point.
3) (Modestly disagree) I would support a 50% tax on tips in general. It should be something that only the wealthy do as a flex, not something that we are normalizing among 95% of the population.
I agree with 2 and 3. Tipping should not be a mandatory part of someone making a living.
Regarding 1: How does society guarantee a worker gets sufficient compensation for their work, and receives enough money to live in the area where they work in order to afford housing and food and healthcare?
We see trillion dollar companies paying their workers minimum wage, and scheduling workers below full time to avoid providing them benefits. We subsidize Walmart when their workers need food stamps to survive. Without a minimum wage it would be even worse.
I think this just further confuses end users and is another reason we should get rid of tipping culture.
Tips are currently serving several purposes in users' minds:
1. earned for great service
2. to make up for lower base pay (tipped min wage is lower in many US states)
3. to help employees who they feel aren't making enough
Now reasons #2 and #3 are no longer true because driers are now fairly (IMHO) compensated through the guaranteed wage. How many users actually know about this?
Sure more money is flowing into the drivers' pockets, but doesn't this just continue to muddle the usage of tips and ultimately cost the consumer more?
Yeah, the change was to force the apps to include a tip option before the food arrived, which users interpret as the "don't spit in my food" option. Of _course_ tips went up when the apps were forced to make this change.
Before the guaranteed wages all the apps had the tip option at checkout.
When NYC enforced a liveable wage, the delivery apps raised holy hell including intrusive popups in the ads telling you how horrible it was for you the innocent consumer, plus added a special extra charge to rub it in.
They ALSO at this time moved the tip to post-checkout which was just an asshole, anti-driver move, explicitly to punish drivers. Tip before checkout was the norm and they changed it in an openly spiteful move.
Even those who like tipping tipped less because now you had to remember to go back to your app to tip. The net effect of the spiteful move was to punish drivers.
I am looking forward to the day when food delivery transport robots fully replace human delivery workers, because the robots don't need to be tipped and have zero chance of spitting in my food if I don't tip them.
> don't need to be tipped
I was at a sports stadium last month and I went to get a bottle of water - the whole thing was completely automated. I picked up a bottle of water off the shelf, scanned it and presented my card, no human involved.
It still asked for a tip.
I usually give a tip because the delivery drivers here are actual teenagers not illegal immigrants. We all remember doing those jobs so it's societal nostalgia.
How can you tell the difference between "actual teenagers" and "illegal immigrants?"
I had honestly forgotten about reason #1 as I haven't heard anyone mentioning the service when leaving a tip in decades. IMO that's dying boomer behavior. Everyone understands that tipped workers are universally underpaid, and either tip generously in solidarity (if they are normal or vaguely left wing/liberal) or tip the minimum they can get away with socially or legally (if they misanthropes or right wingers). The tip isn't an optional part of the bill -- withholding it is deliberately underpaying vulnerable workers who probably have little control over their conditions of work (and therefore the level of service) anyway, so it doesn't even work as an incentive. If you don't like this, cook your own food.
When service work is strongly organized and represented we can start talking about changing tipping culture.
What is the evidence that tipped workers are universally underpaid? Compared to who and against what benchmark? In the law passed by the city, the drivers are now very well compensated -- and guaranteed that compensation (something I believe is important).
Would you quit your job in order to be a gig delivery driver? If not, why not?
I don't tip at all, ever. What are my politics? I'm genuinely curious.
Per the formulation in my post, that puts you in the misanthrope/right winger category, but presumably you are asking because in this case you don't feel that's right as some kind of gotcha.
If you're not from the US maybe not tipping is understandable.
If you are from the US and you don't ever tip, you're an insufferable jerk, on the left or the right.
You could also out avoid situations that require tipping. Like using the grocery store salad bar doesn’t require tipping, so eat lunch there rather than going to a local restaurant.
I avoid fast food places that require tips also, it just seems weird to me. You can choose where to spend your money, it’s not misanthropic to just opt out.
US tipping culture is insane:
1. If "tips" in the US are "compulsory" because customers should make up for the poor wage the delivery people get paid, why is there still a compulsion for tipping now as the wages have been increased (and presumably is "fair")?
2. And if the wages are "fair" now, why should a customer be forced to tip when they are making an order, rather than after they have received the order and can determine if the worker deserved a tip for satisfactory or exemplary service?
I absolutely understand the need to regulate corporates to ensure that they didn't steal the tips or lower their workers' salary based on it. My questions pertain to consumer rights. The government has rightly addressed the needs of the workers and preserved their right to a "fair" wage. But how is regulation that forces customers to tip at checkout itself (even before one has experienced the service) fair to the customers? (And ofcourse, by asking for a tip before checkout, you are forcing customers to give tip because apparently delivery people can see if someone has tipped or not before accepting an order, and most delivery people do not accept orders without tips or tend to de-prioritise it). Democracy is meant to balance everyone's right. Instead of forcing corporates to pay a fair wage, the government has (yet again) transferred part of the burden to customers (this time directly, instead of indirectly through taxes) and even thinks this is something to brags about:
> ... show tips nearly doubled after the city started enforcing the law and were “proof” that the apps were wrong about New Yorkers’ willingness to tip delivery drivers ... New Yorkers are consumers, but we are workers too. We want to support our neighbors who bring meals, groceries, and medicine to our doors.
Yeah, right - if someone is forced to tip because the system is designed around tips, that's not good grace driving the customers to tip. I am left to believe that this was a deliberate concession made to the corporates because it is in their interest that delivery people earn more (as long as they don't have to pay for it). So while the government maybe did do a good job in balancing the rights of the corporates and the workers, it has ignored the rights of consumers and deliberately sacrificed it.
Agree 100%. We have reached a point where delivery costs almost match the food costs. It's cheaper for me to drive to the restaurant and pick up the order. Even then the restaurant prompts to leave a tip.
I vaguely remember seeing a post on Reddit showing a vending machine asking for a tip.
> It's cheaper for me to drive to the restaurant and pick up the order
Of course it is... were you expecting delivery companies to perform magic while humans are required to bring you your food?
If a burrito costs $15, it may cost $30 to have it delivered from 20 minutes away; the alternative is 40 minutes of your time and $15. The thesis of delivery companies is that you value 40 minutes of your time more than $15.
That happened to me as well! I was asked to tip on an automated coffee dispenser…
the whole economic ecosystem is sinking due to a spiral of low-participation, low-quality services and rising backend prices for all the legally mandated support. Lots of third world countries have a more thriving street vendor situation now than major US cities. In the local news here (California), there is a monthly column of restaurant closings -- in a place known for tourism and food.
Arguments about mandatory tipping are an expression of a power struggle between large companies, small business, workers and customers. As usual, the predominant news available to consumers paints the details in incomplete ways.. Journalists are not doing original economic research, and powers-that-be won't speak plainly.
ps- undocumented workers in retail food and commercial food supply are certainly part of this story in the USA.
source: opinion
Solutions are simple and we keep making this hard:
1. Stop raising minimum wage. It doesn't do what you think it does. And if hang around any politicians' backoffices anyway, you realize the only reason this is ever raised is to manipulate voter turnout. Not difficult, just difficult to explain since it deals with second and third order consequences.
2. Do not let employers include tips as part of meeting minimum wage law. If minimum wage is $8/hr, then employers must pay $8/hr. Wages are paid by employers. Tips are not paid by employers. Also not difficult.
3. No Taxes on tips, anywhere. These aren't wages, and are not subject to wage or payroll taxes. Also, not difficult.
And lastly, tips before services rendered are stupid. Everyone knows it and is confused by it. It's something that needs to go away, but that isn't something that should be regulated into existence.
1) (Neutral) I'd need to see more evidence of that.
2) (Unambiguously yes) If your business does not make financial sense without tips, then it isn't a business. There are many businesses that can't currently compete with businesses' that tip, see next point.
3) (Modestly disagree) I would support a 50% tax on tips in general. It should be something that only the wealthy do as a flex, not something that we are normalizing among 95% of the population.
I agree with 2 and 3. Tipping should not be a mandatory part of someone making a living.
Regarding 1: How does society guarantee a worker gets sufficient compensation for their work, and receives enough money to live in the area where they work in order to afford housing and food and healthcare?
We see trillion dollar companies paying their workers minimum wage, and scheduling workers below full time to avoid providing them benefits. We subsidize Walmart when their workers need food stamps to survive. Without a minimum wage it would be even worse.
We need a tip boycott to just end all this madness.