I don't know if I buy this. The intro Pearl Jam story is only noteworthy because it's unique. Cobain wasn't one of a million examples of counter-culture; we still talk about him today because it was uniquely his brand (to be incredibly famous while seemingly rejecting the fame).
Michael Jackson's hair caught on fire filming a Pepsi commercial in 1984. Bill Cosby famously hawked Jell-O Pudding. Sports stars were on Wheaties. Ronald Regan (the actor!) was a spokesperson for GE.
But that being said, celeb endorsements aside... I do think that the author is right that everything these days "feels fake/contrived" and almost nothing exists without an angle to make money somehow.
Everyone now has the ability to go viral and make it big financially, so it does feel like much of our actions (even if that's not our goal) are shaped that way. A random person may not want to be a rich, famous Instagram influencer... but that doesn't stop them from acting similarly (posting photos for likes).
Humans have always had versions of trying to monetize their lifestyles (tupperware parties?); now we all have the tools to do it at scale.
Right. If anything, the 1990s were the decade of apex celebrity superstardom? You had singers like George Michael on the covers of mainstream magazines and in TV ads, you had all the boy bands (New Kids on the Block, Backstreet Boys, NSYNC)... the Rolling Stones got paid millions for the promo song for Windows 95, Britney Spears was selling Pepsi (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fugLhNbwoY), Celine Dion had her line of cosmetics, etc.
The author was a teen back then, and teens to be countercultural, but I don't think they're drawing the right conclusions from that.
I think it's cyclical. Punk in the early 80s was a reaction to the excesses of 70s superbands (e.g. Johnny Rotten's "I hate Pink Floyd" t-shirt). Then things built up again to "monsters of rock" arena tours, The Spice Girls, and hair bands before getting torn down again by the likes of Nirvana.
(Hell, rock and roll was born as an anti-establishment thing in the 1950s)
Maybe we're just due for another one of the inflection points where being anti-cool will become cool again.
Michael Jackson, Bill Cosby, and Ronald Regan are all great examples of people who were considered sellouts at the time. It didn't hinder their mainstream commercial success, but there were a large number of people that definitely did not consider them cool.
Sellouts have always existed at some level, but now it's different, I don't even think a lot of kids know what "sellout" means.
I was alert to popular culture by the time Thriller happened and I don't recall anybody thinking Michael Jackson was a "sellout". Paul McCartney and Michael Jackson did not one but two duets together.
> I don't even think a lot of kids know what "sellout" means.
I think they still do, but selling out to do a deal with a brand to put your name on some clothes or cookies is so far down the scale it doesn't really register to begin with. At worst, all the harm it does is a potential harm to their future art, but a man's gotta make money somehow. It is capitalism after all.
Selling out when there are moral or ethical problems in the mix, they're still able to get very mad about that, but most artists are smart enough to not sell out to Northrup Grumman, OpenAI, Nestlé, nor to your favourite local crypto coin or gambling website.
Definitely a fun read, I almost spit out my coffee after reading about Gen Z thinking nirvana is a clothing brand.
But I don’t follow with the whole premise. The mobility hypothesis is interesting, that people no longer see rich people as something attainable. But becoming famous through influencing or something on that vain. But famous people have been sellouts for far longer than i can remember. Kate bush did some weird promotion for a Dutch theme park called de Efteling and we have been messing with millennials for the past 20 years that nirvana is headlining the biggest Dutch music festival every year. “Ooh yeah i love that song”. And as far as I know Paris Hilton played half of the world into thinking that she was dumb as a rock.
Think that brands have given up on old school advertising. Just god lazy to give people a big bag of money for exposure. For how long will that work until people get bored of that? Yes, a music artist aligning themselves with Pantone as a color once is novel. But how many times does that really stay interesting? Just lazy advertising what only work for a couple of years until the larger crowed stops caring about the next branded Oreo deal.
Author is way off base. Might as well tell me to stop breathing air, except they stopped selling air 6 years ago and I’ve been gasping ever since.
Chromatica Oreos were absolutely wonderful (as far as mass produced garbage that is unfit for human consumption is concerned) and I miss them dearly. Telling me to stop eating them is like telling me to stop seeing a boyfriend who died tragically years ago.
Worse, it brings up painful memories of when Oreo Coke (actually good, unlike Coke Oreo) came into my life, showed me that true love is possible, then disappeared forever in barely a month. I’m still reeling.
There is a premise in the "selling out" scenario that assumes the artist is accepting money from a company so that company can sell more of the same -- or even a WORSE -- product using the artist to market the product. This CAN be true, and humans have a cogitative bias to remember negativity over positives. So we remember the times when the artists screwed over their fans... and hence we boo them.
When marketing collaborations are used to inform people of something actually good, then they can actually be great for everyone. The best example is Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream collaborations. It's hard to communicate "no, it's hard to understand, but this blend of candies is especially worth trying," so the best way to do that is to have a celebrity vouch for it. And, what do you know, those collaborations have been wildly successful. It's hard to convince people that "putting ice cream cone in the ice cream" is surprisingly good, but if you just put Stephen Colbert on the label with a big thumbs up, most people will give it a try.
Marketing can be manipulative, but it can also be very, very helpful to customers who don't have perfect information. This is exactly the point of Rory Sutherland's book Alchemy: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/26210508-alchemy
I really liked Selena Gomez's Oreos, but I would prefer that Oreo brought them back as "horchata flavored" or "cinnamon cream flavored" so I didn't have awkward conversations every time I accidentally said, "I like Selena Gomez flavor" and people would ask how I knew what Selena Gomez tasted like.
There’s a very simple reason that artists don’t worry about selling out anymore (a phenomenon that was much more widespread than just the early 90s): the music industry finally finished their project of extracting nearly all of the money. These days, you’re more likely to have a hit because your song was in an advert than have your hit song used in an advert. Merchandising and the rest is pretty much your principal revenue stream.
I have a problem with artists doing commerce under the guise of art. I listen, I read, and I watch because I want to inhabit, even if just for a moment, the mind of another human. I want to feel what it’s like to be them, and in so doing, I want to better understand what it’s like to be me. But if I journey to the center of someone’s psyche and all I find there is a billboard for Pizza Hut, I’m turning around.
Kind of sounds like they have a bigger problem with what everyone else is doing when they listen to popular music. One can simply not listen to Lady Gaga; I've succeeded at that for decades.
> The only thing that’s unprecedented about these craven cash-ins is how well they seem to be working. Selling out no longer carries a stigma—if anything, fans are excited for tie-ins between their favorite bands and their favorite brands, no matter how shameless.
I feel like this only really makes sense in contrast to specifically the 90s? This wasn't some eternal cultural rule that changed in the 2000s, it's just two pretty recent trends in mainstream culture. You can still find people who are snobby about Drake compared to Kendrick or Taylor Swift compared to Chappelle Roan nowadays anyway. That mindset isn't gone?
I also think it's important to distinguish selling out from participating in culture and making things people may enjoy. The pendulum often swings between extremes before settling on reasonable middle ground.
Having fun colors for one of the world's most popular cookie brands is pretty low on the scale of harm compared to, say, actively promoting people to go use online gambling services or buy snakeoil supplements.
For me the issue is that online gambling firms can operate legally at this scale and that they therefore have the money to get commercials like that. The celebrity endorsements are bad too, but priorities
I don't care who has their name on the package. I just enjoy the different flavors. The Selena Gomez ones were great. I appreciate the different flavors occasionally, and buy them from time to time if I see them.
I realize most people aren't like me. But that's even more reason to not bother to tell people this. People who like Lady Gaga are going to feel inspired to buy her Oreos, no matter what you say. They know she's already mega-rich, and they are happy to keep giving her money. You aren't going to stop that.
I 100% agree with you. It looks like multiple people (including me) were typing comments about how good the Selena Gomez Oreos were at the same time as you.
The post seems to have found a strange niche of HN, or maybe the Selena Gomez Oreos had wider appeal than I thought.
I read and enjoyed this article but strongly disagree with the thesis.
Oreos are as important a part of life as anything else. People have feelings, memories, and good experiences with it. Just because a big company makes them instead of a small doesn't make that any less valid.
Hell, michaelangelo had to balance the art of his soul with what his patrons wanted.
And the same artist can make one spiritually deep, untouched by consumerism piece and also make a music video with Mario the next week. A healthy life and mix can include both.
I like the premise. However i think there's an angle about the death of religion. It happened before most people were ready to stop being religous. Energy went to sports teams, heretical charismatics and celebrities. I do worry that jake paul or mr beast or someone like that will become president. Oprah probably could have if she'd tried.
People read one person's opinion now almost as much if not more than people read the news.
I do think its on the nose about belief, people want to believe they want to be famous and can be famous and people feel less like they can be rich.
I also wonder if its just counter culture though and we're due another cycle. I find it upsetting that so many people aspire to be digital beggars.
MCA wouldn't have dropped that line about not selling his songs for no tv ads if it wasn't something lots of his colleagues were doing. (And Mike D wouldn't have rhymed "commercial" with "commercial" for the same reason)
Stop eating oreos because they changed the formula, the filling can now be described as white paste product, and they want $4.99 for the "family" size now. I know this isn't what the article is about, but I'm sad by what Oreos have become.
I misread the title and was confused and appalled for a few seconds sorting through the word being "Oreos" instead of "Orgasms" and the meaning that word has in Urban Dictionary.
> Why don’t the poor people vote to take all the money away from the rich people and redistribute it amongst themselves?
It's because the Powers That Be don't put it on the ballot. If you put "take 99% of the money from the 1000 richest billionaires (about $10 trillion, I think), and nobody has to pay any income taxes for the next four years" on some sort of national ballot, I think there's a very good chance that it would pass.
That law would take a hammer to average US quality of life almost overnight. Its hard to state how dramatic the societal upheaval would be and how destructive.
> The internet decapitated art criticism, elevating the YouTube commenter to the same level as the Pitchfork editor.
Part of that issue is people think "reviews" and "criticism" is one and the same. Ideally, a critic places the artwork in appropriate historical context and provides analysis. But most people just want Numbers or THumbs Ups.
As a huge fan of Fishbone, who did not make it big, despite being oh so close in the early 90ies... it'd be nice if there were a better balance. They've seemingly struggled over the years and kept going, but you get the sense that the guys don't have a lot of economic security that they might have with a few big hits.
I think the world has bigger problems than Lady Gaga's Oreos. That said, why not say "Stop Eating Oreos" altogether? Although they are certainly yummy, the sugar in them is a lot worse for people than Lady Gaga's association.
I will say, Oreos are one of the better vegan cookies on the market. The ones purposely advertized as vegan tend to be less tasty. But yeah, 100% should not be a regular thing to eat.
I don't know if I buy this. The intro Pearl Jam story is only noteworthy because it's unique. Cobain wasn't one of a million examples of counter-culture; we still talk about him today because it was uniquely his brand (to be incredibly famous while seemingly rejecting the fame).
Michael Jackson's hair caught on fire filming a Pepsi commercial in 1984. Bill Cosby famously hawked Jell-O Pudding. Sports stars were on Wheaties. Ronald Regan (the actor!) was a spokesperson for GE.
But that being said, celeb endorsements aside... I do think that the author is right that everything these days "feels fake/contrived" and almost nothing exists without an angle to make money somehow.
Everyone now has the ability to go viral and make it big financially, so it does feel like much of our actions (even if that's not our goal) are shaped that way. A random person may not want to be a rich, famous Instagram influencer... but that doesn't stop them from acting similarly (posting photos for likes).
Humans have always had versions of trying to monetize their lifestyles (tupperware parties?); now we all have the tools to do it at scale.
Right. If anything, the 1990s were the decade of apex celebrity superstardom? You had singers like George Michael on the covers of mainstream magazines and in TV ads, you had all the boy bands (New Kids on the Block, Backstreet Boys, NSYNC)... the Rolling Stones got paid millions for the promo song for Windows 95, Britney Spears was selling Pepsi (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fugLhNbwoY), Celine Dion had her line of cosmetics, etc.
The author was a teen back then, and teens to be countercultural, but I don't think they're drawing the right conclusions from that.
I think it's cyclical. Punk in the early 80s was a reaction to the excesses of 70s superbands (e.g. Johnny Rotten's "I hate Pink Floyd" t-shirt). Then things built up again to "monsters of rock" arena tours, The Spice Girls, and hair bands before getting torn down again by the likes of Nirvana.
(Hell, rock and roll was born as an anti-establishment thing in the 1950s)
Maybe we're just due for another one of the inflection points where being anti-cool will become cool again.
And in those examples you don’t see any difference to:
>Maroon 5 is covering Bob Marley’s “Three Little Birds” as a tribute to Hyundai
Because that sentence hits hard in the smh.
A band covering a song for a Hyundai ad?
Michael Jackson did a parody of his own song Billie Jean for Pepsi ("You're the Pepsi generation")
Iggy Pop's "Lust for Life" was used in a cruise ship ad in 2003. Not the 90's, but not exactly recent.
The Medici Banking family paid Michelangelo to paint the Medici Chapel.
Scrovegni Chapel by Giotto was made to help the reputation of the scrovegni family who were big creditors.
This is as old as time.
I think plenty of bands back in the day would have done the same if someone paid them.
Nobody was doing ads exactly like that decades ago, but celebrity endorsements in some form have been a staple of advertising for at least a century.
Isn't it pretty normal for car commercials or soda commercials to get covers of songs made?
"I'd like to teach the world to sing" was covered as a tribute to coca cola in 1971, that's classic now.
Michael Jackson, Bill Cosby, and Ronald Regan are all great examples of people who were considered sellouts at the time. It didn't hinder their mainstream commercial success, but there were a large number of people that definitely did not consider them cool.
Sellouts have always existed at some level, but now it's different, I don't even think a lot of kids know what "sellout" means.
I was alert to popular culture by the time Thriller happened and I don't recall anybody thinking Michael Jackson was a "sellout". Paul McCartney and Michael Jackson did not one but two duets together.
> I don't even think a lot of kids know what "sellout" means.
I think they still do, but selling out to do a deal with a brand to put your name on some clothes or cookies is so far down the scale it doesn't really register to begin with. At worst, all the harm it does is a potential harm to their future art, but a man's gotta make money somehow. It is capitalism after all.
Selling out when there are moral or ethical problems in the mix, they're still able to get very mad about that, but most artists are smart enough to not sell out to Northrup Grumman, OpenAI, Nestlé, nor to your favourite local crypto coin or gambling website.
Definitely a fun read, I almost spit out my coffee after reading about Gen Z thinking nirvana is a clothing brand.
But I don’t follow with the whole premise. The mobility hypothesis is interesting, that people no longer see rich people as something attainable. But becoming famous through influencing or something on that vain. But famous people have been sellouts for far longer than i can remember. Kate bush did some weird promotion for a Dutch theme park called de Efteling and we have been messing with millennials for the past 20 years that nirvana is headlining the biggest Dutch music festival every year. “Ooh yeah i love that song”. And as far as I know Paris Hilton played half of the world into thinking that she was dumb as a rock.
Think that brands have given up on old school advertising. Just god lazy to give people a big bag of money for exposure. For how long will that work until people get bored of that? Yes, a music artist aligning themselves with Pantone as a color once is novel. But how many times does that really stay interesting? Just lazy advertising what only work for a couple of years until the larger crowed stops caring about the next branded Oreo deal.
Author is way off base. Might as well tell me to stop breathing air, except they stopped selling air 6 years ago and I’ve been gasping ever since.
Chromatica Oreos were absolutely wonderful (as far as mass produced garbage that is unfit for human consumption is concerned) and I miss them dearly. Telling me to stop eating them is like telling me to stop seeing a boyfriend who died tragically years ago.
Worse, it brings up painful memories of when Oreo Coke (actually good, unlike Coke Oreo) came into my life, showed me that true love is possible, then disappeared forever in barely a month. I’m still reeling.
Edit: boo, hiss!
There is a premise in the "selling out" scenario that assumes the artist is accepting money from a company so that company can sell more of the same -- or even a WORSE -- product using the artist to market the product. This CAN be true, and humans have a cogitative bias to remember negativity over positives. So we remember the times when the artists screwed over their fans... and hence we boo them.
When marketing collaborations are used to inform people of something actually good, then they can actually be great for everyone. The best example is Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream collaborations. It's hard to communicate "no, it's hard to understand, but this blend of candies is especially worth trying," so the best way to do that is to have a celebrity vouch for it. And, what do you know, those collaborations have been wildly successful. It's hard to convince people that "putting ice cream cone in the ice cream" is surprisingly good, but if you just put Stephen Colbert on the label with a big thumbs up, most people will give it a try.
Marketing can be manipulative, but it can also be very, very helpful to customers who don't have perfect information. This is exactly the point of Rory Sutherland's book Alchemy: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/26210508-alchemy
I really liked Selena Gomez's Oreos, but I would prefer that Oreo brought them back as "horchata flavored" or "cinnamon cream flavored" so I didn't have awkward conversations every time I accidentally said, "I like Selena Gomez flavor" and people would ask how I knew what Selena Gomez tasted like.
You should try Nerd Clusters!
There’s a very simple reason that artists don’t worry about selling out anymore (a phenomenon that was much more widespread than just the early 90s): the music industry finally finished their project of extracting nearly all of the money. These days, you’re more likely to have a hit because your song was in an advert than have your hit song used in an advert. Merchandising and the rest is pretty much your principal revenue stream.
I have a problem with artists doing commerce under the guise of art. I listen, I read, and I watch because I want to inhabit, even if just for a moment, the mind of another human. I want to feel what it’s like to be them, and in so doing, I want to better understand what it’s like to be me. But if I journey to the center of someone’s psyche and all I find there is a billboard for Pizza Hut, I’m turning around.
Kind of sounds like they have a bigger problem with what everyone else is doing when they listen to popular music. One can simply not listen to Lady Gaga; I've succeeded at that for decades.
> The only thing that’s unprecedented about these craven cash-ins is how well they seem to be working. Selling out no longer carries a stigma—if anything, fans are excited for tie-ins between their favorite bands and their favorite brands, no matter how shameless.
I feel like this only really makes sense in contrast to specifically the 90s? This wasn't some eternal cultural rule that changed in the 2000s, it's just two pretty recent trends in mainstream culture. You can still find people who are snobby about Drake compared to Kendrick or Taylor Swift compared to Chappelle Roan nowadays anyway. That mindset isn't gone?
I also think it's important to distinguish selling out from participating in culture and making things people may enjoy. The pendulum often swings between extremes before settling on reasonable middle ground.
Having fun colors for one of the world's most popular cookie brands is pretty low on the scale of harm compared to, say, actively promoting people to go use online gambling services or buy snakeoil supplements.
For me the issue is that online gambling firms can operate legally at this scale and that they therefore have the money to get commercials like that. The celebrity endorsements are bad too, but priorities
I don't care who has their name on the package. I just enjoy the different flavors. The Selena Gomez ones were great. I appreciate the different flavors occasionally, and buy them from time to time if I see them.
I realize most people aren't like me. But that's even more reason to not bother to tell people this. People who like Lady Gaga are going to feel inspired to buy her Oreos, no matter what you say. They know she's already mega-rich, and they are happy to keep giving her money. You aren't going to stop that.
I 100% agree with you. It looks like multiple people (including me) were typing comments about how good the Selena Gomez Oreos were at the same time as you.
The post seems to have found a strange niche of HN, or maybe the Selena Gomez Oreos had wider appeal than I thought.
I read and enjoyed this article but strongly disagree with the thesis.
Oreos are as important a part of life as anything else. People have feelings, memories, and good experiences with it. Just because a big company makes them instead of a small doesn't make that any less valid.
Hell, michaelangelo had to balance the art of his soul with what his patrons wanted.
And the same artist can make one spiritually deep, untouched by consumerism piece and also make a music video with Mario the next week. A healthy life and mix can include both.
I like the premise. However i think there's an angle about the death of religion. It happened before most people were ready to stop being religous. Energy went to sports teams, heretical charismatics and celebrities. I do worry that jake paul or mr beast or someone like that will become president. Oprah probably could have if she'd tried.
People read one person's opinion now almost as much if not more than people read the news.
I do think its on the nose about belief, people want to believe they want to be famous and can be famous and people feel less like they can be rich.
I also wonder if its just counter culture though and we're due another cycle. I find it upsetting that so many people aspire to be digital beggars.
> I do worry that jake paul or mr beast or someone like that will become president.
Not that I'm happy about it or want it to continue, but we're already there, have been since 2016.
Eat the rich, not their Oreos.
I don't know about Lady Gaga's Oreos but the Selena Gomez ones are quite good. I bought them as a joke and ended up liking them.
MCA wouldn't have dropped that line about not selling his songs for no tv ads if it wasn't something lots of his colleagues were doing. (And Mike D wouldn't have rhymed "commercial" with "commercial" for the same reason)
Stop eating oreos because they changed the formula, the filling can now be described as white paste product, and they want $4.99 for the "family" size now. I know this isn't what the article is about, but I'm sad by what Oreos have become.
One page in, and I still have no idea what the article is even meant to be about.
The reason we got testy about selling out in the 80s and 90s was because so many people were doing it.
I misread the title and was confused and appalled for a few seconds sorting through the word being "Oreos" instead of "Orgasms" and the meaning that word has in Urban Dictionary.
Stop eating Lady Gaga, Oreos.
The article is very good; the headline is great. AI cannot (yet) do this.
One of the modern problems, is that people can become [in]famous, without being rich.
Not good.
Needing bodyguards, and not being able to afford them, is a problem.
> Why don’t the poor people vote to take all the money away from the rich people and redistribute it amongst themselves?
It's because the Powers That Be don't put it on the ballot. If you put "take 99% of the money from the 1000 richest billionaires (about $10 trillion, I think), and nobody has to pay any income taxes for the next four years" on some sort of national ballot, I think there's a very good chance that it would pass.
That law would take a hammer to average US quality of life almost overnight. Its hard to state how dramatic the societal upheaval would be and how destructive.
Back then you didn’t want to sell out or be a poser. Now we are a society of posers.
Women drive 75-85% of discretionary spending in 2026. That's why advertising and products are they way they are.
Lady Gaga is also a playable character in the video game Fortnite, lol
So is Kelsier from Mistborn, Isaac from the binding of Isaac, lots of fun nerd characters
> The internet decapitated art criticism, elevating the YouTube commenter to the same level as the Pitchfork editor.
Part of that issue is people think "reviews" and "criticism" is one and the same. Ideally, a critic places the artwork in appropriate historical context and provides analysis. But most people just want Numbers or THumbs Ups.
As a huge fan of Fishbone, who did not make it big, despite being oh so close in the early 90ies... it'd be nice if there were a better balance. They've seemingly struggled over the years and kept going, but you get the sense that the guys don't have a lot of economic security that they might have with a few big hits.
I think the world has bigger problems than Lady Gaga's Oreos. That said, why not say "Stop Eating Oreos" altogether? Although they are certainly yummy, the sugar in them is a lot worse for people than Lady Gaga's association.
I will say, Oreos are one of the better vegan cookies on the market. The ones purposely advertized as vegan tend to be less tasty. But yeah, 100% should not be a regular thing to eat.