We ended up with a Samsung fridge in our new home. It has no external display or any other indication that it is a "smart" fridge. I only found out when a friend visited who has a Samsung phone and the phone offered to connect to the fridge. We spent the next 30 minutes removing panels from the fridge and found the wifi/bluetooth antenna on a small board under the top-right hinge cover. The board was disconnected and the fridge continues to operate normally.
Samsung has made garbage appliances for my entire life. A family member went through about 3 different samsung fridges before they swore them off for good. The compressor would routinely break after only a year or 2 of service.
I will never own a Samsung or LG appliance. They are built almost explicitly to force you to get a new one in a couple of years.
Then couple that with both companies trying to use weaselly legal maneuvers like putting the EULA that agrees to arbitration on the outside of a box and saying "If you open this box you agree to the EULA".
> Samsung has made garbage appliances for my entire life.
When I moved into my first own flat, family, friends and colleagues pressured me to buy good appliances. They will last longer they said.
Buy Miele for a washing machine, nothing else, they said. I didn't had the money for that, so I bought a washing machine for 250 Euro. It has been going for 11 years, moved two times and doesn't show any signs of going out.
Another friend told me he only buys Samsung fridges. Best machines, one shouldn't buy anything else. I bought a fridge for 200 Euro because I liked the retro look and its red color. Also going strong for 10 years and moving two times. He has got the third Samsung fridge in 10 years now.
Yeah, that's anecdotal but I haven't really found the part where buying something more expensive really helped with expanding its lifespan, rather the contrary where "high tech" broke earlier or more often.
>Yeah, that's anecdotal but I haven't really found the part where buying something more expensive really helped with expanding its lifespan, rather the contrary where "high tech" broke earlier or more often.
buy professional stuff that's expensive, not consumer gadgetry expensive.
a samsung fridge is expensive because of the gimmicks and high tech integrations.
a sub zero fridge is expensive because of the build quality and manufacturer network , part re-use and larger consumer part availability and market.
Funnily sub-zero fridges are considered the samsung of the semi-commercial brands. They prioritize things like customizable doors and easy to break but consumer loved features like ice makers and water dispensers. You will never see sub-zero in actual commercial kitchens.
Many 250 appliances are targeted at landlords who care that the applicance is cheap and works for years without complaints. They don't care about features - they will never use them - just that it is good enough to check the box and the users don't get so mad they complain. They also don't care that it looks good so you get things that look cheap but last.
Note that I said many above. there are also 250 appliances built for the penny wise and pound foolish - they will break in a few years (just long enough that the warranty is up).
Even knowing that though, often there are features of the more expensive appliances that while not needed are nice enough that I'm willing to pay extra.
> Buy Miele for a washing machine, nothing else, they said. I didn't had the money for that, so I bought a washing machine for 250 Euro. It has been going for 11 years, moved two times and doesn't show any signs of going out.
Washing machines are a solved problem and it does not need a high tech solution. A good, reliable motor and good weights is pretty much it. No need for brittle over-engineering, fragile touchscreens or temperamental sensors.
When I had to buy one, I got a basic Beko* because they are usually good with replacement parts, and it had the bare minimum in terms of electronics. It was also one of the cheapest, but that’s a consequence of the other criteria more than something I optimised. I would be reluctant to get a no-name Chinese one, even if it is cheap. Anyway, it’s been going for 5 years now just like on the first day. Very happy with it.
> He has got the third Samsung fridge in 10 years now.
Fridges are also a solved problem. It’s just a cooling loop with a radiator on one side and a pump in the middle, and good thermal insulation. Using three of them in 10 years is not very impressive, decent ones should go forever. There is no reason why one should fail before 10 to 15 years.
> Yeah, that's anecdotal but I haven't really found the part where buying something more expensive really helped with expanding its lifespan, rather the contrary where "high tech" broke earlier or more often.
Definitely. But I would not say that going for cheap is the best strategy. Going for simple and sturdy is, and it is usually correlated with being cheap. But there’s also a lot of cheap disposable crap.
* I am not sure how well they are known around the world, it’s a Turkish brand. Their stuff is built mainly in Turkey and in my experience sturdy and easy to fix and repair, if a bit bare bones features-wise.
>It has been going for 11 years, moved two times and doesn't show any signs of going out.
I replaced my AEG washing machine last year after ±10 years of service. The new one, also roughly 200 euro, uses a fraction of the energy, and cleans better. I should have swapped it out way earlier to save money.
Samsung/LG don't know how to build reliable white home appliances, or don't want to. Or black ones for that matter (remember FUBAR with Samsung bricking their expensive surround system for good? Not so long ago).
No reason to buy those when you have ie some basic Bosch stuff. TBH smart stuff should be left to computers and phones, rest should be dumb as brick. But folks keep buying it for some reason (ie hey Samsung makes good phones, lets buy their fridge), hence crapware everywhere.
In my family we have 3 fridges, 2 washers and 2 dishwashers, and our experience a bit different than the rest of the thread.
The fridges are dead-silent and working great for 7+ years. Washers are also nice, washing for a bit too long but don't wear the clothes down and have better stain removal performance than their peers, and dishwashers are extremely slow and not designed for European market. Their baskets are not suitable for our dishes, we can't fill them efficiently even.
So, from experience their fridges are A-OK, washers are great with some caveats, but dishwashers are not good.
My first choice is still BSH group and Beko, but Samsung is acceptable if required, but LG? Ain't nobody got time for that.
My Samsung fridge worked fine for ten years and then broke down. Apparently it was the first generation of some new compressor or something and it was known to be problematic. The new ones come with an extra long warranty on that bit
The fridges we have at least 10 year warranties on the compressor, that's right. Considering the last fridge we had worked for ~20 years, I'm eager to see how planned obsolescence will play on these, yet they work pretty nicely.
My own Siemens fridge is with me for ~14 years, as well.
It’s pretty well known in the US that LG washers perform better and have a far better parts and service network than Samsung. You think whatever you want though.
I'm not in the US though. The models, their performance and service networks are way different.
I have replaced shock absorbers and power switch of a 15 year old Beko washing machine last year, and it cost me 6$ plus workmanship to get genuine parts installed in 20 minutes.
I bet that won't be very possible over there, though.
Why are you throwing LG in with Samsung? They routinely have some of the most durable appliances, check consumer reports if you don't believe me. They even offer ten year warranty on their direct drive washer and dryers
Out of all the fridges that LG sold, what percentage had issues? LG sells a lot of units, so even small percentages may end up with 'critical mass' of problems that gains wider awareness.
An article from an appliance retailer that has their own in-house service department, and so has statistics on repair rates of the various OEMs that they sell:
Yes, recently replaced an LG refrig with that issue. Its second linear compressor in eight years was dying the way the first one had (four years after purchase, with the sympathetic repairman telling us this second compressor was the “fixed” model and should last for quite a few more years), so we bailed on it. Its 1985-vintage Whirlpool predecessor had worked for 32 years, FWIW.
LG washers and dryers have consistently been one of the most reliable appliances I have owned.
Other than minor design flaws like lettering that wipes off if laundry detergent contacts it (older models), that was the only issue I’ve had in 11 years.
Huh, two houses back I had a really fucking POS dryer that I got expert at replacing the "Dryer Thermal Fuse" (pick your own youtube video walkthrough) and my foggy memory says in my ear that it was an LG dryer. So I'm thinking, this commenter malfist, doesn't know what he is talking about and I'll go look in my notes.org and... NOPE! It was a Samsung DV42H5000EW/A3 model!
Sorry malfist for thinking bad thoughts. I've redirected all that negative energy back to its rightful owner: Samsung.
The washer next to that dryer was an LG, and in my notes I never touched it.
Always good to reattach to reality.
Ah, I see that the washer/dryer pair we bought new 4 years ago and hauled across the country are LG ThinQs. Very happy with them. Apparently can be "smart" but I shut that down.
I understand the axe to grind, but what about their spy tech hurts durability or warranty prospects; the thing your comments' parent was talking about?
Do you not think it's relevant to mention to people that the appliance that they have in their house might be listening to everything they're saying and uploading it to LG's servers? A quick Google search shows that LG has WiFi enabled dishwashers/washing machines.
I think it may depend on the LG appliance. Their washers and dryers are generally rated pretty well and last a long time (personal experience). They are generally pretty self-repairable and parts aren't obscene (again, personal experience).
That said, next go around, I'm buying a top loader Speed Queen Commercial washer and dryer. The ones with analog knobs.
But yeah, I'd never buy a Samsung appliance and that seems to be universal advice among the clued.
Where we live (Kazakhstan), we had a Samsung fridge, AC and TV for about 7 years without any issues whatsoever. After moving to a new apartment, we bought another Samsung fridge and it has been quietly humming along for over 2 years now.
Could be more features lead to more problems. Ice makers are highly desirable and often problematic.
Could be that US runs on 120vac and that means a lot of different parts.
Could be the US market gets more advanced compressors and what not to meet energy efficiency requirements (and maybe reduced noise) and Kazakhstan gets a simpler refrigerator that just keeps working.
damn I really like my samsung fridge and dishwasher that ive had for just over 2 years. Hopefully my fate is not the same cause that dishwasher is quieter than a church mouse. if it is, back to the scratch and dent appliance store for something else I guess
Samsung has been around for a while now. I wouldn't be surprised if they finally decided to fix their issues and new ones work fine. However I still won't be allowing them in my house for a few decades at least to be sure. Partially because I was burned in the past.
Since you already have them I wish you luck. Maybe they now last.
I wonder if it's a regional difference. Here in the UK I have their fridge and dryer - both came with 5 year warranty. My inlaws have their fridge in Poland, that came with a 10 year warranty on the compressor. They've had it now for 8 years and it's been working fine. Obviously it's anecdotes, but if a company offers 10 years warranty for something I tend to see that as a strong signal it's going to be at least somewhat reliable.
There's an old joke floating around if anyone remembers where it's from:
A tech enthusiast has the latest and greatest smartphones, voice assistants, and everything else cool and flashy. A programmer has a single inkjet printer from the 90s, and they keep a shotgun by their bedside in case it makes a noise.
I always joke with people that I hate software in anything but a traditional computers _because_ I'm a software engineer. I want the car with the fewest smart features, a normal door bell, a non-smart washing machine.
Software sucks a lot of the time and it often gets in the way, at least the way it's deployed over the last decade. Very few things in my home should connect to the internet. My phone and computers. Begrudgingly my TV now.
Also, those things that connect to the internet but don't let you have control? They get EOL'd, despite having paid a premium for them. I've never had a stove from this century and they all work fine, because why the hell wouldn't they?
Appliances with mandatory wi-fi is a bad trend. The mid-tier dishwasher from Bosch locks the Eco(nomy) energy saver cycle, delayed start, etc functionality behind a smartphone app. This requires connecting the dishwasher to wi-fi and using the smartphone to create a Bosch online account. That's what the whole Jeff Geerling complaint video was all about.
Aside: I heard that "eco mode" is typically not actually the most energy efficient mode on most washing machines. Apparently it's a standard mode they have to add so that energy efficiency can be measured across machines, but that means it can't be optimised.
You're typically better off looking for some kind quick/fast mode. Or even the "regular" mode.
Under EU Commission Regulation (EU) 2019/2023, washing machines sold in the European Union must include a mandatory standardized program called "Eco 40-60".
The whole point is to enforce strict legal limits on maximum water and electricity consumption per cycle based on the machine's rated capacity. This it the reason they tend to run for hours - it uses less water and energy than a standard cotton cycle by having longer soak times and using less electricity to heat the water.
In 1995 it took 94 litres of water and 350 kWh/a for a cycle in the average EU washing machine. These measures, amongst others, reduced that to 36 l/cycle and 96 kWh/a in 2020 and an expected 30 l/cycle by 2030.
The irony being that Eco loads are necessarily smaller, for soaking and to draw less current through the motor, so to do the same amount of clothes as one 'planet killer' wash you need to do at least two 'Eco' cycles.
TLDR: there aren't really any shortcuts to getting dirt out of clothes.
Using durable clothes for as long as they... endure. Definitely not flash fashion.
Since I live in a poor country, I am allowed to use cotton shirts until too much skin shows (hyperbole, I only allow one small hole) Then, it becomes a rag or a mop 100% of the time.
Having few stains in an worn bought-new shirt is a good indicator of not being rich and still having class.
Eco friendly means unfashionable most of the time. Smaller cars, or even public transport, god forbid.
It's one of those "optimize for X/Y/Z, pick two". The eco mode is usually the best for water usage, but it might use more energy. The fast modes might use more water but less energy. It's hard to do both and still get good results.
Countries with heavy investment in wind and solar are seeing periods of free or negative cost electricity. Ideally, batteries would soak this up for use during peak hours, but smart appliances can be a great way to take advantage. It's a shame that these companies cannot be trusted with our data!
It's true with basically all technology these days. We have a lot of cool and useful technology, but every company who will sell it to you has designed it so that the device you paid for is also being used by them to screw you over.
I'm skeptical of Samsung after having two LCD monitors dies at approximately the same usage hours. I think they were victims of the 2000s capacitor plague.
My house came with Samsung front load washer and drier. They're not wonderful but they're still running for the 6 years I've lived here. I had to replace the drier drum after the rollers deteriorated and gouged out holes in the drum. Then I had to replace the rollers again after a year because I bought cheap rollers :(
Ugh, I've avoided connecting my TV to Wifi to avoid all "smart" crap but it does support some "wireless" display from Windows that seems to be local based and I do get periodic requests to connect to other devices (My conundrum now becomes, is the TV safer with or without remote connection/updates).
I have a dishwasher that turned out to have an app. I quite like it, but I am going to try and isolate it and only get it integrated into Home Assistant.
Honestly baffled by this. You load the dishwasher and then go sit down on your phone, open an app, and turn it on? And that will be preferable to clicking start as you close the door?
"Never buy hardware that requires and app to use" has been my rule for a long time and I've never once regretted it. If the need for an app wasn't disclosed before purchase the item gets promptly returned.
What you should have done is install a webcam, connect it to some SuperMarket AI App Api (tm) and supply your credit card info. Now you never have to worry about food anymore. :)
Reminds me of when Nest thermostats stopped turning on the furnace without an internet connection. If your product fails at its primary job because of some other priority its junk. A thermostat can be as simple as a coiled spring with a mercury switch - no software. Same here, what stupid functionality was so important they failed to ensure the fridge would fridge?
> If your product fails at its primary job because of some other priority its junk.
As far as the company is concerned it's primary job is personal data collection and being an ad platform. Anything else it does, like keeping your food cold, is an optional feature that can be remotely disabled at any time.
I've had multiple that do it. they're quite visible in the right light. you can also see it when your yellow cartridge runs out, despite printing exclusively black and white, while the other color ones are full.
"most" might not, I can't claim anything there and EFF claims most don't, when they were checking on it in 2015-2017. I'm pretty darn sure that some do though.
A device like a printer can work without certain inks without damage, but at the cost of quality.
Humans have historically been able to decide when quality is low enough that replacement/repair is necessary in these situations. This goes for almost anything: appliances, farming equipment, clothing, etc.
Having a device/appliance/tool that decides for you that “it’s time”, especially when the manufacturer has a vested interest in coercing you into a buying a replacement right away, takes away that owner agency.
My printer could theoretically print a black and white page in magneta when my black ink runs out, too. But logically, it doesn’t want to do that.
I just don’t think it’s a big deal to consider the printer a device that requires all inks to be present to function properly. If the printer is consuming some color inks in order to print black colors better the implication is that less black ink is being consumed. Either way you’re buying ink.
It’s not cheapness. My kid couldn’t print her homework because I was low on cyan. It’s not that I don’t want to buy more ink, but that the thing I was printing only needed black. If it weren’t a color printer, the output would’ve been identical and it wouldn’t have needed cyan.
Alternatively, the printer allows you to keep going regardless of status of the print ink and then the printer gets bad reviews and complaints about bad print quality.
Your unpreparedness on your kids’ homework isn’t the fault of the manufacturer. I can’t blame Ticonderoga if I run out of pencils.
If you ran out of black ink you’d be similarly in trouble.
> Your unpreparedness on your kids’ homework isn’t the fault of the manufacturer. I can’t blame Ticonderoga if I run out of pencils.
That analogy doesn’t hold up. You have other colour pencils at hand, but you can’t use them because the blue pencil is worn down. Let me use my goshdarn pencils.
No, its tracking dots if you send a criminal printed letter for ransom, they will track you down very quickly. Some people don't like being tracked continuously.
There are 0 other reasons, you being ignorant of basic facts and repeating your weird mantra doesn't change that.
That’s what you think, though, you didn’t design the printer. I assume you don’t have a background in color theory or chemistry or whatever else you need to produce ink.
For all you know, the black ink isn’t really a perfect black and the color inks are used in conjunction with the black ink.
I also think a lot of people are just being cheap about it. It’s just not a big deal.
In my experience a color inkjet printer makes a much better print than a black and white laser printer. If you are willing to sacrifice print quality then buy a black and white laser printer.
> That’s what you think, though, you didn’t design the printer. I assume you don’t have a background in color theory or chemistry or whatever else you need to produce ink.
Do you?
Monotone printers are a thing and have been since the 60's.
I agree, monotone printers are available technology, and monotone printers have worse output quality than a color inkjet printer.
If you want a monotone printer, buy one. I just have a little bit of confusion around the situation where people who bought color inkjet printers aren’t willing to put color ink in the printer.
You’re aware, aren’t you, that a color inkjet that only squirts ink out of the black cartridge is, technically speaking, a black and white inkjet printer? A color inkjet is literally a superset of a black and white one.
You are bending over backwards to justify this user hostile practice. Most people wouldn’t choose to not print at all just because it “isn’t really a perfect black.” They’re just trying to get their homework printed.
I bought a color laser in 2004 and I’ve never replaced the C M or Y toner because I almost never print color. Miraculously, it is still happy to print “imperfect” black and white, which is exactly what I want.
IoT need standardized inter-connection APIs enforced on every participent. If you can defect to another supplier- and ecosystem and he can revive your device after a e.g. a "downdate"- the lock in effect disappears and the competition reappars.
A bimetallic strip thermostat with a ‘cool/off/heat’ mode switch and ‘on/off/auto’ for fan control is all anyone actually needs with a fixed speed compressor and generic furnace with a fixed speed fan.
If you have a fancy modulating furnace and variable speed compressor or a variable speed heat pump, a thermostat that uses a PID would work better.
Fixed speed compressors are okay for AC condensers but for tighter applications like heat pumps a variable speed drive offers a good efficiency gain, the problem is there is no standardization established for the driving of say a variable motor since they are all redesigned and unique so when the controller goes kaputz you are out 3-4000 dollars for something that costs 30 dollars to manufacture
I am not an SWE, rather a hardware guy with light software experience, and the next home project on my docket is getting AI to write the code for my own ESP32 thermostat (with a nice e-paper display too).
We have a mix of splits, central air, and gas baseboard, so being able to customize all that to fit our utility pricing time slots is a dream.
That, plus blocking all updates from the 'smart' devices; in the last few years, I dont remember anything getting better from updates, everything is actually getting way worse.
I have a Sonos soundbar. It used to be nice. Now it automatically goes to sleep after a few minutes of tv inactivity. I now hate the device and the company.
My old M1 mbp used to feel super fast. A number of MacOs updates later it feels sluggish. I don't see anything better about MacOs of today vs. 3 years ago, literally NOTHING.
My apple tv now routinely drops airplay -- it used to work flawlessly.
Etc. etc. All those companies push shit updates to keep their existing engineering teams busy.
There really is a limit to what smart devices a house "needs" vs what is absolutely unnecessary. Fridges, washers, dryers and stoves absolutely do not need to be smart. Smart lights, smart locks, smart garage doors and security systems (if those can be considered smart in this context) are all chill in my opinion, but the rest I simply don't understand the "why" of the product. Smart tvs were a decent idea, but that clearly went to shit quickly and now dumb tvs aren't even available anymore in styles like OLED - which is extremely frustrating.
There are definitely some uses for a washer and drier with "smart" capabilities. Just alerting me when the program is done so I can put the next load is great. The cycles are not "fixed time" anymore, they all weigh the load and end up variable.
I could do without them, and it's not the end of the world if the laundry stayed 20m or 1h longer in the drum. It's practical, and hopefully not a critical feature of the internal board. One could argue if alerting is really a "smart" feature either.
there will come a time when compromised smart fridges will cause mass casualties (food poisoning). it's beyond stupid to allow a smart fridge in your home.
whether because someone just wants chaos or a clever scheme to manipulate stock prices of food distributors.
a smart fridge knows when it's opened, which will let an attack algorithm to reliably determine the sleep schedule of the household. just a few hours night over night is enough to compromise your food leaving no trace.
My 1984 HotPoint fridge with water and ice still works just fine other than occasional defrost leaks underneath. I pray I never have to replace it, but I have seen a few vintage ones like mine in perfect condition for sale. Adding more technology has not made these things last any longer, but it does add some convenience I suppose. I would prefer a 40+ year lifespan over a potential to brick the device during a test…
Napkin math for me puts newer fridges at 4x more efficient. I’ve got cheap hydro power in Canada, but that would still be about $150/year more in electricity use to keep the old one.
Would a different argument be - which is worse, the energy innefficency of vintage - or the massive amounts of waste produced by modern efficient crap that is disposable.
you can still easily buy new dumb fridges, smart fridges are still in minority and you will save lot of money on electricity compared to 40 year old fridge
Once a product is sold, you are dead to me. Go away. That’s the Samsung philosophy. Note that it’s also the philosophy in most parts of the world outside the West. Once transaction is done, that’s it. go away.
That depends. If something doesn't last as long as I expect I'm going to look for a different manufacture, while if it lasts as long as I expect and they give good support I might buy (and more importantly tell my friends to buy). On expensive things I also research from the likes of Consumer Reports to see what lasts.
Fridge owners should start taking them to small claims court. This seems like a financial liability that these appliance manufactures may not have anticipated. Would be a shame if it became a trend for hackers to brick smart appliances in mass?
In India where people buy the devices with lowest possible cost, i have never seen a smart washing machine so far and rarely a smart fridge. The cost of the smart module doesn’t offset the cost of spying yet i guess.
Me, in the US, tried to buy a non smart oven a couple years ago. I could not find one (that fit the space the old oven was in). I also did not see any with knobs that I could turn for less than $10k. They all had the plastic covered membrane buttons.
Reminded me of the August incident where the freezers at multiple U.S. Department of Defense commissionaires were remotely triggered to enter into "defrost" mode and cooked all their refrigerated food overnight.
I can imagine one good use: plotting graphs of inner temperature, configured set point, motor on/off status, door open/closed status, and power consumption. But that use case does not require having control of the fridge compressor...
If the temperature goes out of acceptable range than then it is defective. The only people who need that plot are the lawyers for the class action lawsuit for a defective appliance.
There are scientific reasons to need the plot, but that is not normal and they likely need a special fridge with tighter controls or something anyway.
I’d just throw an analog min/max thermometer in there and investigate if the max temp goes above 40F, sounds a lot easier than adding a temp probe and door switch to a residential refrigerator.
There is already a door switch in all the refrigerators I have used. It controls the light (at least I think it does, I have never seen the light go off:)
It might be nice to email me about errors and warnings. But at least my fridge will post errors on the temperature displays, and it's usually the same error (compressor is running too long; better clean the coils).
Plus, since it's a Sub-Zero, it's got a pretty cool finishing move.
As someone who is bad at tracking what food I have in there and how long I have to eat it until it spoils, I can see the use for some automation here and that would be complex enough for convenient updates to make sense. Similarly, when I'm at the store I don't always know if I still have enough of $perishable or if I should get more.
I however have zero trust in our tech industry making this work without abusing me at every possibility so I will never buy such a product.
Your fridge must be a complex place to navigate. We have 70cm wide tall Siemens one and what we have vs what is missing is a question of maybe 10-15s check. This covers 4 people.
Chest freezers would be more tricky if full and could take maybe up to a minute but we don't have those. If you are bad at tracking, make a list.
No, we really don't need 'smart' fridges and people should vote with their wallets.
I do not disagree with your sentiment. We have had refrigerators for 100+ years [citation needed] after all. Still there are likely cases where it is useful. Looking in on elderly family members might include picking up things from the grocery store and having a list of staples needed might be an example. There are plenty of ways to deal with this but one might be a connected refrigerator.
> We have had refrigerators for 100+ years [citation needed]
If you’re thinking about the domestic appliance, apparently since 1913 [1], so close enough (what a stupid name, though). AFAICT the first one with something that looks like the modern cooling loop is the first Frigidaire from 1916. But the concept of refrigeration to keep food for longer is older.
I live with an elderly person (as a caretaker) and find that elderly persons are not always good sources of information about needs. It could be that I am completely wrong about the usefulness of a connected refrigerator (I just look in out 1980's era fridge).
> Looking in on elderly family members might include picking up things from the grocery store and having a list of staples needed might be an example
You would turn up unannounced with things you think are missing from the fridge surveillance camera? Here's how that should go: Visit old person. Check fridge. Check cupboards. Visit store. Visit old person.
- it notifies if your kids (or spouse) have left the door open.
- you can use as a tool to check if the power company (or the road maintenance one!) has managed to reconnect the power back (or cut it, as in literally)
- Other than that not so much.
Honestly I just loathe korean tech. I still don't get what makes korean brands _extra_ shitty. Like these dark patterns are all over the world but somehow korean brands crank it up to one more level.
An official update hard (and permanently) bricked my S8 phone back when it was still the flagship. Samsung refused to fix or replace it because I had moved overseas meanwhile.
While "technically" valid, this never happened with iPhones despite frequent travels.
I'd never buy a Samsung fridge, but ironically I'm loyal to Samsung phones because they've always worked out well for me and I've had bad experiences with Apple and Google hardware. I'd just never buy one of their smart appliances, or any smart appliance for that matter.
The fridge compressor answers to software? Idiocy. It need be nothing more than a relay attached to a thermocouple. I can see having a smart screen to deliver aps/ads and to collect data on people in the home, but why on earth would that need to actually manipulate temperatures?
In 2006 shortly after I bought my (first and still only) home, I bought the cheapest Kenmore fridge from Sears (~$600 at the time) as the one that came with the house failed soon after moving in - it was probably 26 years old with metal grill shelves. I was stretched for money for a bit due to dealing with closing costs, etc. I figured it'd last 5-10 years and I'd just get a new, "better" one when my cashflow wasn't acutely tight.
Despite having since remodelled the kitchen (again spending more than expected as one does when renovating), I kept the fridge...it's still working fine 20 years later, though the plastic drawers are starting to degrade. Next to higher-end German appliances it looks a bit well worn and out of place in an otherwise very nicely renovated kitchen, which my wife and I semi-seriously joke gives the place character.
Every once in awhile I'll wander through an appliance aisle and sigh. Similar fridges feel cheap and are much more expensive. In fancy fridges, I just see more components that'd fail. I'll I really want is a freezer and a fridge. I want need an ice maker (especially after learning how gross they can get). Ideally I'd have a standard old-fashioned sized fridge that had a good separate temperature control for the freezer and is common enough that I can get replacement parts 20 years from now.
The kicker was I now realize the old 26 year old fridge probably just needed a coolant top up. Maybe that wasn't possible as I'm not sure when freon was banned and if it would have been possible to do that.
Most non high-end samsung fridges aren't built in Korea, lower-end fridges are made in Vietnam and midrange fridges are made in China or Thailand. Regardless of Samsung outsourcing they still have to compete with outsourcing firms. There's only so much demand for fridges, 100-200 million fridges a year worldwide, and most of the consumer fridges end up primarily competing on price.
My non-Samsung fridge lets me change the temperature settings from my phone.
That’s why the compressor answers to software. How else would I change the temperature remotely if it didn‘t?
I find that the anti-smart device brigade among tech enthusiasts is very detached from the reality of what consumers want. The general public does demand smart features and they want them to work well.
The sin here isn’t that the fridge is smart, the sin is that bad software was pushed out.
My particular refrigerator also has a purposefully limited set of features. You’ll notice that real luxury brands like Sub-Zero don’t pack their refrigerators with crazy feature lists and touch screens. Their smart apps are basic and focus on essentials like “door left open” or “change filter” notifications and remote temperature adjustment. They don’t have complicated features like craft cocktail ice and even basic stuff like water dispensing is an optional extra (since it’s assumed that luxury clients may have a separate dedicated reverse osmosis and sparkling water machine for that). They don’t push out frequent updates and they keep their smart functions as modular components since it’s assumed that the refrigerator will remain installed permanently for decades (e.g., you can add a newer control system with touch screen and WiFi to your older Sub-Zero fridge).
It would be nice if non-luxury brands followed some of these philosophies a little more.
I’m away on vacation and weather reports say there might be a thunderstorm at my house with high probability of power outage, so maybe I lower the temperature setting to try and extend the life of the contents.
Kids/nanny/housekeeper changes the temperature against my wishes.
I’ve left the house for a long vacation with the fridge emptied and I’d like to change the temperature to consume less power while I’m gone, forgot to do it before I left.
And again it’s trivially simple functionality that costs almost no money or development effort to I implement.
> so maybe I lower the temperature setting to try and extend the life of the contents.
Bullshit. The ideal refrigerator temperature is already close enough to freezing that any small adjustment you could make is unlikely to do any good. If this was actually a good idea then by your logic (similar to odd love for printer manufacturers) the all wise manufacturers would have already incorporated this into their “smart” fridges.
My non-Samsung fridge lets me change the temperature settings from my phone. That’s why the compressor answers to software. How else would I change the temperature remotely if it didn‘t?
I can't tell if you're serious or sarcastic, so I'll bite: why on Earth would you ever want to change the temperature settings of your fridge?
I don’t really appreciate being assumed to be a troll just because I’m holding a contrary opinion. That’s very much against the guidelines of this site.
I think if you are the type who is interested in digging up comment history you’ll find plenty of comments from me that show that I’m pretty much a regular person who has respectful conversations.
I apologize if I didn’t follow the popular “corporation bad” narrative. Like, I do recognize that ink is grossly overpriced and all that. At the same time, I don’t really think we are held hostage by printer companies these days. I buy ink once a year or less and it’s not even a laser printer. It isn’t a significant expense or inconvenience.
Because the temperature is adjusted and they want to be able to display the current temperature as well as the target on said display? And once you’ve done that, your bean counters will pressure you to shave the BOM.
Not saying it’s smart, just laying out a plausible sequence of events on how they reached that decision
> they want to be able to display the current temperature
Do they really? When replacing my 20 year old fridge (that had an actual mechanical temperature gauge) with a new one I specifically bought one that had a (now digital, of course) display for the current temperature.
It turned out that the temperature display is completely faked. It always shows exactly the set temperature, from the moment you power it on. I guess because of (actual or imagined) customers complaining why their fridge shows e.g. 7°C when they set it to 4°C.
Incidentally, my new smart AC does exactly the same thing. Subjectively it's worse than the old one at keeping the place not too cold and not too warm, but it makes damn sure to never show the actual measured temperature anywhere.
It probably has more to do with consumer fridges being a bang-bang controller situation where temperature will always fluctuate several degrees either side of the desired number.
Does a relay with a thermocouple get you the cycles required for no-frost features? I agree that there should be adequate safeguards at every turn but its not like computerized control of fridge temperature doesn't make sense.
We ended up with a Samsung fridge in our new home. It has no external display or any other indication that it is a "smart" fridge. I only found out when a friend visited who has a Samsung phone and the phone offered to connect to the fridge. We spent the next 30 minutes removing panels from the fridge and found the wifi/bluetooth antenna on a small board under the top-right hinge cover. The board was disconnected and the fridge continues to operate normally.
I am now eyeing my dishwasher very suspiciously.
Samsung has made garbage appliances for my entire life. A family member went through about 3 different samsung fridges before they swore them off for good. The compressor would routinely break after only a year or 2 of service.
I will never own a Samsung or LG appliance. They are built almost explicitly to force you to get a new one in a couple of years.
Then couple that with both companies trying to use weaselly legal maneuvers like putting the EULA that agrees to arbitration on the outside of a box and saying "If you open this box you agree to the EULA".
> Samsung has made garbage appliances for my entire life.
When I moved into my first own flat, family, friends and colleagues pressured me to buy good appliances. They will last longer they said.
Buy Miele for a washing machine, nothing else, they said. I didn't had the money for that, so I bought a washing machine for 250 Euro. It has been going for 11 years, moved two times and doesn't show any signs of going out.
Another friend told me he only buys Samsung fridges. Best machines, one shouldn't buy anything else. I bought a fridge for 200 Euro because I liked the retro look and its red color. Also going strong for 10 years and moving two times. He has got the third Samsung fridge in 10 years now.
Yeah, that's anecdotal but I haven't really found the part where buying something more expensive really helped with expanding its lifespan, rather the contrary where "high tech" broke earlier or more often.
>Yeah, that's anecdotal but I haven't really found the part where buying something more expensive really helped with expanding its lifespan, rather the contrary where "high tech" broke earlier or more often.
buy professional stuff that's expensive, not consumer gadgetry expensive.
a samsung fridge is expensive because of the gimmicks and high tech integrations.
a sub zero fridge is expensive because of the build quality and manufacturer network , part re-use and larger consumer part availability and market.
Funnily sub-zero fridges are considered the samsung of the semi-commercial brands. They prioritize things like customizable doors and easy to break but consumer loved features like ice makers and water dispensers. You will never see sub-zero in actual commercial kitchens.
Many 250 appliances are targeted at landlords who care that the applicance is cheap and works for years without complaints. They don't care about features - they will never use them - just that it is good enough to check the box and the users don't get so mad they complain. They also don't care that it looks good so you get things that look cheap but last.
Note that I said many above. there are also 250 appliances built for the penny wise and pound foolish - they will break in a few years (just long enough that the warranty is up).
Even knowing that though, often there are features of the more expensive appliances that while not needed are nice enough that I'm willing to pay extra.
> Buy Miele for a washing machine, nothing else, they said. I didn't had the money for that, so I bought a washing machine for 250 Euro. It has been going for 11 years, moved two times and doesn't show any signs of going out.
Washing machines are a solved problem and it does not need a high tech solution. A good, reliable motor and good weights is pretty much it. No need for brittle over-engineering, fragile touchscreens or temperamental sensors.
When I had to buy one, I got a basic Beko* because they are usually good with replacement parts, and it had the bare minimum in terms of electronics. It was also one of the cheapest, but that’s a consequence of the other criteria more than something I optimised. I would be reluctant to get a no-name Chinese one, even if it is cheap. Anyway, it’s been going for 5 years now just like on the first day. Very happy with it.
> He has got the third Samsung fridge in 10 years now.
Fridges are also a solved problem. It’s just a cooling loop with a radiator on one side and a pump in the middle, and good thermal insulation. Using three of them in 10 years is not very impressive, decent ones should go forever. There is no reason why one should fail before 10 to 15 years.
> Yeah, that's anecdotal but I haven't really found the part where buying something more expensive really helped with expanding its lifespan, rather the contrary where "high tech" broke earlier or more often.
Definitely. But I would not say that going for cheap is the best strategy. Going for simple and sturdy is, and it is usually correlated with being cheap. But there’s also a lot of cheap disposable crap.
* I am not sure how well they are known around the world, it’s a Turkish brand. Their stuff is built mainly in Turkey and in my experience sturdy and easy to fix and repair, if a bit bare bones features-wise.
> I got a basic Beko because they are usually good with replacement parts
Can confirm this. My mum has broken two drawer fronts in her Beko freezer and I was pleasantly surprised with how easy it was to get replacements.
> buying something more expensive really helped with expanding its lifespan
Expensive consumer appliances aren't always the same quality as expensive professional appliances.
>It has been going for 11 years, moved two times and doesn't show any signs of going out.
I replaced my AEG washing machine last year after ±10 years of service. The new one, also roughly 200 euro, uses a fraction of the energy, and cleans better. I should have swapped it out way earlier to save money.
Samsung/LG don't know how to build reliable white home appliances, or don't want to. Or black ones for that matter (remember FUBAR with Samsung bricking their expensive surround system for good? Not so long ago).
No reason to buy those when you have ie some basic Bosch stuff. TBH smart stuff should be left to computers and phones, rest should be dumb as brick. But folks keep buying it for some reason (ie hey Samsung makes good phones, lets buy their fridge), hence crapware everywhere.
In my family we have 3 fridges, 2 washers and 2 dishwashers, and our experience a bit different than the rest of the thread.
The fridges are dead-silent and working great for 7+ years. Washers are also nice, washing for a bit too long but don't wear the clothes down and have better stain removal performance than their peers, and dishwashers are extremely slow and not designed for European market. Their baskets are not suitable for our dishes, we can't fill them efficiently even.
So, from experience their fridges are A-OK, washers are great with some caveats, but dishwashers are not good.
My first choice is still BSH group and Beko, but Samsung is acceptable if required, but LG? Ain't nobody got time for that.
My Samsung fridge worked fine for ten years and then broke down. Apparently it was the first generation of some new compressor or something and it was known to be problematic. The new ones come with an extra long warranty on that bit
The fridges we have at least 10 year warranties on the compressor, that's right. Considering the last fridge we had worked for ~20 years, I'm eager to see how planned obsolescence will play on these, yet they work pretty nicely.
My own Siemens fridge is with me for ~14 years, as well.
It’s pretty well known in the US that LG washers perform better and have a far better parts and service network than Samsung. You think whatever you want though.
I'm not in the US though. The models, their performance and service networks are way different.
I have replaced shock absorbers and power switch of a 15 year old Beko washing machine last year, and it cost me 6$ plus workmanship to get genuine parts installed in 20 minutes.
I bet that won't be very possible over there, though.
> It’s pretty well known in the US that
If you're going to get snitty, cite your claim.
Why are you throwing LG in with Samsung? They routinely have some of the most durable appliances, check consumer reports if you don't believe me. They even offer ten year warranty on their direct drive washer and dryers
There was a US lawsuit against them for their linear compressors: https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/consumer/fridge-failures-...
> There was a US lawsuit against them for their linear compressors: https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/consumer/fridge-failures-...
Out of all the fridges that LG sold, what percentage had issues? LG sells a lot of units, so even small percentages may end up with 'critical mass' of problems that gains wider awareness.
An article from an appliance retailer that has their own in-house service department, and so has statistics on repair rates of the various OEMs that they sell:
* https://blog.yaleappliance.com/lg-compressor-class-action-la...
Looking at service rates in total (for all issues), LG has the lowest number out of all the manufacturers they sell/service:
* https://blog.yaleappliance.com/the-best-counter-depth-refrig...
* https://blog.yaleappliance.com/most-reliable-counter-depth-f...
Yes, recently replaced an LG refrig with that issue. Its second linear compressor in eight years was dying the way the first one had (four years after purchase, with the sympathetic repairman telling us this second compressor was the “fixed” model and should last for quite a few more years), so we bailed on it. Its 1985-vintage Whirlpool predecessor had worked for 32 years, FWIW.
LG washers and dryers have consistently been one of the most reliable appliances I have owned.
Other than minor design flaws like lettering that wipes off if laundry detergent contacts it (older models), that was the only issue I’ve had in 11 years.
Huh, two houses back I had a really fucking POS dryer that I got expert at replacing the "Dryer Thermal Fuse" (pick your own youtube video walkthrough) and my foggy memory says in my ear that it was an LG dryer. So I'm thinking, this commenter malfist, doesn't know what he is talking about and I'll go look in my notes.org and... NOPE! It was a Samsung DV42H5000EW/A3 model!
Sorry malfist for thinking bad thoughts. I've redirected all that negative energy back to its rightful owner: Samsung.
The washer next to that dryer was an LG, and in my notes I never touched it.
Always good to reattach to reality.
Ah, I see that the washer/dryer pair we bought new 4 years ago and hauled across the country are LG ThinQs. Very happy with them. Apparently can be "smart" but I shut that down.
Must be a different branch than the TV's, which spy on what you're talking about
I understand the axe to grind, but what about their spy tech hurts durability or warranty prospects; the thing your comments' parent was talking about?
Do you not think it's relevant to mention to people that the appliance that they have in their house might be listening to everything they're saying and uploading it to LG's servers? A quick Google search shows that LG has WiFi enabled dishwashers/washing machines.
Simply providing a "smart" appliance is not damning the entire product line.
There's other reasons to avoid LG: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToP9xfLDSME
I think it may depend on the LG appliance. Their washers and dryers are generally rated pretty well and last a long time (personal experience). They are generally pretty self-repairable and parts aren't obscene (again, personal experience).
That said, next go around, I'm buying a top loader Speed Queen Commercial washer and dryer. The ones with analog knobs.
But yeah, I'd never buy a Samsung appliance and that seems to be universal advice among the clued.
My Speed Queens with buttons/LED have been good for ~10 years now, only rare minor problems and none with the "electronics".
Is this lack of quality a US thing?
Where we live (Kazakhstan), we had a Samsung fridge, AC and TV for about 7 years without any issues whatsoever. After moving to a new apartment, we bought another Samsung fridge and it has been quietly humming along for over 2 years now.
I never heard anybody complaining about Samsung.
Could be more features lead to more problems. Ice makers are highly desirable and often problematic.
Could be that US runs on 120vac and that means a lot of different parts.
Could be the US market gets more advanced compressors and what not to meet energy efficiency requirements (and maybe reduced noise) and Kazakhstan gets a simpler refrigerator that just keeps working.
damn I really like my samsung fridge and dishwasher that ive had for just over 2 years. Hopefully my fate is not the same cause that dishwasher is quieter than a church mouse. if it is, back to the scratch and dent appliance store for something else I guess
Samsung has been around for a while now. I wouldn't be surprised if they finally decided to fix their issues and new ones work fine. However I still won't be allowing them in my house for a few decades at least to be sure. Partially because I was burned in the past.
Since you already have them I wish you luck. Maybe they now last.
I wonder if it's a regional difference. Here in the UK I have their fridge and dryer - both came with 5 year warranty. My inlaws have their fridge in Poland, that came with a 10 year warranty on the compressor. They've had it now for 8 years and it's been working fine. Obviously it's anecdotes, but if a company offers 10 years warranty for something I tend to see that as a strong signal it's going to be at least somewhat reliable.
From what people say, if you want french door fridges, Bosch and Fisher Paykel are the ones to go for.
I’ve had 3 LG french door fridges for 5 to 10 years and none have had any issues, and they cost half or a third as much as Bosch and Fisher Paykel.
I feel like I save a lot more money just buying whatever decent rated LG stuff on Costco and replacing it whenever it breaks (hasn’t happened yet).
There's an old joke floating around if anyone remembers where it's from:
A tech enthusiast has the latest and greatest smartphones, voice assistants, and everything else cool and flashy. A programmer has a single inkjet printer from the 90s, and they keep a shotgun by their bedside in case it makes a noise.
I always joke with people that I hate software in anything but a traditional computers _because_ I'm a software engineer. I want the car with the fewest smart features, a normal door bell, a non-smart washing machine.
Software sucks a lot of the time and it often gets in the way, at least the way it's deployed over the last decade. Very few things in my home should connect to the internet. My phone and computers. Begrudgingly my TV now.
Also, those things that connect to the internet but don't let you have control? They get EOL'd, despite having paid a premium for them. I've never had a stove from this century and they all work fine, because why the hell wouldn't they?
I've become oversensitive to UI problems and bugs.
I get triggered when watching my family or friends struggle with egregiously poor design.
I have avoidance techniques, so I can avoid facing the most anger inducing software.
I just feel lucky I'm not a graphic designer or architect or writer. How does someone with good taste even survive facing the outside world?
The earliest that I can track down is https://www.tumblr.com/michaelblume/169525456166/tech-enthus...
What was your process to find the oldest reference?
Google search.
P.S. only the oldest that I can track down.
Real tech people don't own printers.
(to ruin an otherwise good joke)
I'd go with an ancient boat anchor LaserJet but, otherwise, yep.
if it makes an unexpected noise, to be precise
>I am now eyeing my dishwasher very suspiciously.
Appliances with mandatory wi-fi is a bad trend. The mid-tier dishwasher from Bosch locks the Eco(nomy) energy saver cycle, delayed start, etc functionality behind a smartphone app. This requires connecting the dishwasher to wi-fi and using the smartphone to create a Bosch online account. That's what the whole Jeff Geerling complaint video was all about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M_hmwBBPnc&t=4m21s
Aside: I heard that "eco mode" is typically not actually the most energy efficient mode on most washing machines. Apparently it's a standard mode they have to add so that energy efficiency can be measured across machines, but that means it can't be optimised.
You're typically better off looking for some kind quick/fast mode. Or even the "regular" mode.
(YMMV, look things up for your specific model)
That's not true in the EU anyway.
Under EU Commission Regulation (EU) 2019/2023, washing machines sold in the European Union must include a mandatory standardized program called "Eco 40-60".
The whole point is to enforce strict legal limits on maximum water and electricity consumption per cycle based on the machine's rated capacity. This it the reason they tend to run for hours - it uses less water and energy than a standard cotton cycle by having longer soak times and using less electricity to heat the water.
In 1995 it took 94 litres of water and 350 kWh/a for a cycle in the average EU washing machine. These measures, amongst others, reduced that to 36 l/cycle and 96 kWh/a in 2020 and an expected 30 l/cycle by 2030.
https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/product-list/...
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELE...
The irony being that Eco loads are necessarily smaller, for soaking and to draw less current through the motor, so to do the same amount of clothes as one 'planet killer' wash you need to do at least two 'Eco' cycles.
TLDR: there aren't really any shortcuts to getting dirt out of clothes.
Using durable clothes for as long as they... endure. Definitely not flash fashion.
Since I live in a poor country, I am allowed to use cotton shirts until too much skin shows (hyperbole, I only allow one small hole) Then, it becomes a rag or a mop 100% of the time.
Having few stains in an worn bought-new shirt is a good indicator of not being rich and still having class.
Eco friendly means unfashionable most of the time. Smaller cars, or even public transport, god forbid.
It's one of those "optimize for X/Y/Z, pick two". The eco mode is usually the best for water usage, but it might use more energy. The fast modes might use more water but less energy. It's hard to do both and still get good results.
Set your BSH free!
https://github.com/hn/bsh-home-appliances
I'm sure my unconnected LG oled is gossiping about me to my neighbours connected LG fridge.
Countries with heavy investment in wind and solar are seeing periods of free or negative cost electricity. Ideally, batteries would soak this up for use during peak hours, but smart appliances can be a great way to take advantage. It's a shame that these companies cannot be trusted with our data!
It's true with basically all technology these days. We have a lot of cool and useful technology, but every company who will sell it to you has designed it so that the device you paid for is also being used by them to screw you over.
> Please scan your butthole twice to open the fridge and retrieve the beer.
make sure to enema yourself with a verification bag to continue
A lot of devices have optional "smart" functionality. I don't think that's nearly as bad as devices actively connected to the internet.
I'm skeptical of Samsung after having two LCD monitors dies at approximately the same usage hours. I think they were victims of the 2000s capacitor plague.
My house came with Samsung front load washer and drier. They're not wonderful but they're still running for the 6 years I've lived here. I had to replace the drier drum after the rollers deteriorated and gouged out holes in the drum. Then I had to replace the rollers again after a year because I bought cheap rollers :(
Ugh, I've avoided connecting my TV to Wifi to avoid all "smart" crap but it does support some "wireless" display from Windows that seems to be local based and I do get periodic requests to connect to other devices (My conundrum now becomes, is the TV safer with or without remote connection/updates).
I have a dishwasher that turned out to have an app. I quite like it, but I am going to try and isolate it and only get it integrated into Home Assistant.
Honestly baffled by this. You load the dishwasher and then go sit down on your phone, open an app, and turn it on? And that will be preferable to clicking start as you close the door?
Yeah, my hot water heater has an app. I'm not happy about this.
"Never buy hardware that requires and app to use" has been my rule for a long time and I've never once regretted it. If the need for an app wasn't disclosed before purchase the item gets promptly returned.
What you should have done is install a webcam, connect it to some SuperMarket AI App Api (tm) and supply your credit card info. Now you never have to worry about food anymore. :)
Reminds me of when Nest thermostats stopped turning on the furnace without an internet connection. If your product fails at its primary job because of some other priority its junk. A thermostat can be as simple as a coiled spring with a mercury switch - no software. Same here, what stupid functionality was so important they failed to ensure the fridge would fridge?
IoT is not for me.
> If your product fails at its primary job because of some other priority its junk.
As far as the company is concerned it's primary job is personal data collection and being an ad platform. Anything else it does, like keeping your food cold, is an optional feature that can be remotely disabled at any time.
This is the most accurate definition of Samsung products I ever read.
Similar to when printer stops printing black when color is gone.
That probably means you've been wasting toner on "enhanced darkness" (check if it's turned on/off).
No, it’s because it can’t print the yellow dots watermark for tracking.
That "feature" and incompetence at The Intercept leaked the identity of Reality Winner.
Color inkjets demand color ink for tracking dots even if it isn't used for anything else.
inkjet printers to not print the tracking dots. it's laser printers that do it.
I've had multiple that do it. they're quite visible in the right light. you can also see it when your yellow cartridge runs out, despite printing exclusively black and white, while the other color ones are full.
"most" might not, I can't claim anything there and EFF claims most don't, when they were checking on it in 2015-2017. I'm pretty darn sure that some do though.
I have never understood the negative controversy around this.
I expect the printer to use whatever inks it has on hand to print in the best quality it can.
The use of ink is an inevitability.
It always struck me as one of those things analogous to “I don’t understand why my car needs oil when I already put gas in it.”
Just give the machine the stuff it requires to operate.
A device like a printer can work without certain inks without damage, but at the cost of quality.
Humans have historically been able to decide when quality is low enough that replacement/repair is necessary in these situations. This goes for almost anything: appliances, farming equipment, clothing, etc.
Having a device/appliance/tool that decides for you that “it’s time”, especially when the manufacturer has a vested interest in coercing you into a buying a replacement right away, takes away that owner agency.
My printer could theoretically print a black and white page in magneta when my black ink runs out, too. But logically, it doesn’t want to do that.
I just don’t think it’s a big deal to consider the printer a device that requires all inks to be present to function properly. If the printer is consuming some color inks in order to print black colors better the implication is that less black ink is being consumed. Either way you’re buying ink.
Some people are just cheap.
It’s not cheapness. My kid couldn’t print her homework because I was low on cyan. It’s not that I don’t want to buy more ink, but that the thing I was printing only needed black. If it weren’t a color printer, the output would’ve been identical and it wouldn’t have needed cyan.
Alternatively, the printer allows you to keep going regardless of status of the print ink and then the printer gets bad reviews and complaints about bad print quality.
Your unpreparedness on your kids’ homework isn’t the fault of the manufacturer. I can’t blame Ticonderoga if I run out of pencils.
If you ran out of black ink you’d be similarly in trouble.
> Your unpreparedness on your kids’ homework isn’t the fault of the manufacturer. I can’t blame Ticonderoga if I run out of pencils.
That analogy doesn’t hold up. You have other colour pencils at hand, but you can’t use them because the blue pencil is worn down. Let me use my goshdarn pencils.
This is the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard. A standard mono laser printer can somehow print adequately without ANY color toner.
No, its tracking dots if you send a criminal printed letter for ransom, they will track you down very quickly. Some people don't like being tracked continuously.
There are 0 other reasons, you being ignorant of basic facts and repeating your weird mantra doesn't change that.
He also supports ID verification on phones/computers. Probably some troll.
Having opinions doesn’t make me a troll, please don’t assume mal-intentions. I am presenting my opinions and having good faith discussions.
Your engine explodes when it doesnt have oil.
A printer can still print black when color ink is gone
This is disingenuous; a car needs both gas and oil to run. A printer should only need black ink to print black and white documents.
That’s what you think, though, you didn’t design the printer. I assume you don’t have a background in color theory or chemistry or whatever else you need to produce ink.
For all you know, the black ink isn’t really a perfect black and the color inks are used in conjunction with the black ink.
I also think a lot of people are just being cheap about it. It’s just not a big deal.
In my experience a color inkjet printer makes a much better print than a black and white laser printer. If you are willing to sacrifice print quality then buy a black and white laser printer.
> That’s what you think, though, you didn’t design the printer. I assume you don’t have a background in color theory or chemistry or whatever else you need to produce ink.
Do you?
Monotone printers are a thing and have been since the 60's.
I agree, monotone printers are available technology, and monotone printers have worse output quality than a color inkjet printer.
If you want a monotone printer, buy one. I just have a little bit of confusion around the situation where people who bought color inkjet printers aren’t willing to put color ink in the printer.
You’re aware, aren’t you, that a color inkjet that only squirts ink out of the black cartridge is, technically speaking, a black and white inkjet printer? A color inkjet is literally a superset of a black and white one.
You are bending over backwards to justify this user hostile practice. Most people wouldn’t choose to not print at all just because it “isn’t really a perfect black.” They’re just trying to get their homework printed.
I bought a color laser in 2004 and I’ve never replaced the C M or Y toner because I almost never print color. Miraculously, it is still happy to print “imperfect” black and white, which is exactly what I want.
IoT need standardized inter-connection APIs enforced on every participent. If you can defect to another supplier- and ecosystem and he can revive your device after a e.g. a "downdate"- the lock in effect disappears and the competition reappars.
There was a brief period before IoT turned to IoS, when the first manufacturers seemed to make an effort in implementation.
Nest/Google also hid microphones in products so ...
A bimetallic strip thermostat with a ‘cool/off/heat’ mode switch and ‘on/off/auto’ for fan control is all anyone actually needs with a fixed speed compressor and generic furnace with a fixed speed fan.
If you have a fancy modulating furnace and variable speed compressor or a variable speed heat pump, a thermostat that uses a PID would work better.
Fixed speed compressors are okay for AC condensers but for tighter applications like heat pumps a variable speed drive offers a good efficiency gain, the problem is there is no standardization established for the driving of say a variable motor since they are all redesigned and unique so when the controller goes kaputz you are out 3-4000 dollars for something that costs 30 dollars to manufacture
ioT is nice but only for people who know how to make softwares.
I am not an SWE, rather a hardware guy with light software experience, and the next home project on my docket is getting AI to write the code for my own ESP32 thermostat (with a nice e-paper display too).
We have a mix of splits, central air, and gas baseboard, so being able to customize all that to fit our utility pricing time slots is a dream.
The problem here is there is almost always incentive to make that software shit.
I'm starting to hate all smart devices. I love my dumb devices that need no updates, internet or subscription. They just work.
That, plus blocking all updates from the 'smart' devices; in the last few years, I dont remember anything getting better from updates, everything is actually getting way worse.
I have a Sonos soundbar. It used to be nice. Now it automatically goes to sleep after a few minutes of tv inactivity. I now hate the device and the company.
My old M1 mbp used to feel super fast. A number of MacOs updates later it feels sluggish. I don't see anything better about MacOs of today vs. 3 years ago, literally NOTHING.
My apple tv now routinely drops airplay -- it used to work flawlessly.
Etc. etc. All those companies push shit updates to keep their existing engineering teams busy.
Don't update anything unless its broken (apart from computer and phone unfortunately). Never connect to wifi.
Literally anything, there is simply no real gain, potential for loss absolute.
> Now it automatically goes to sleep after a few minutes of tv inactivity.
> All those companies push shit updates to keep their existing engineering teams busy.
Or comply with idiotic energy conservation laws in places like Europe.
There really is a limit to what smart devices a house "needs" vs what is absolutely unnecessary. Fridges, washers, dryers and stoves absolutely do not need to be smart. Smart lights, smart locks, smart garage doors and security systems (if those can be considered smart in this context) are all chill in my opinion, but the rest I simply don't understand the "why" of the product. Smart tvs were a decent idea, but that clearly went to shit quickly and now dumb tvs aren't even available anymore in styles like OLED - which is extremely frustrating.
I don't want any of those except security
There are definitely some uses for a washer and drier with "smart" capabilities. Just alerting me when the program is done so I can put the next load is great. The cycles are not "fixed time" anymore, they all weigh the load and end up variable.
I could do without them, and it's not the end of the world if the laundry stayed 20m or 1h longer in the drum. It's practical, and hopefully not a critical feature of the internal board. One could argue if alerting is really a "smart" feature either.
Likely not just rotten food but also spoilt medicine. Content of my fridge is a lot more expensive than the fridge.
Especially if you're a heisenberg.
Imagine a lot of insulin gone to waste.
Biologics (of rare diseases) cost well over what insulin costs, a patient could have medication in their fridge equal to the cost of a car.
Yes, freezing insulin destroys it, which is a problem for me when I’m outdoors in the winter.
there will come a time when compromised smart fridges will cause mass casualties (food poisoning). it's beyond stupid to allow a smart fridge in your home.
whether because someone just wants chaos or a clever scheme to manipulate stock prices of food distributors.
a smart fridge knows when it's opened, which will let an attack algorithm to reliably determine the sleep schedule of the household. just a few hours night over night is enough to compromise your food leaving no trace.
The R in IoT stands for reliability.
The Q in Samsung stands for software quality.
Every single time I see Tizen, I get reminded of this,
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/04/samsungs-tizen-is-ri...
https://pvs-studio.com/en/blog/posts/cpp/0519/
The E in MBA stands for experience.
Certainly not in their QLED technology..
Remember that Samsung is more of a kingdom of feuding lords than a single unified company
No, it stands for Respect for the Customer
And the S stands for security.
We have RIoTS already... two more letters and we get a Scrabble.
If we'd had RIoTS this stuff might've already been fixed.
My 1984 HotPoint fridge with water and ice still works just fine other than occasional defrost leaks underneath. I pray I never have to replace it, but I have seen a few vintage ones like mine in perfect condition for sale. Adding more technology has not made these things last any longer, but it does add some convenience I suppose. I would prefer a 40+ year lifespan over a potential to brick the device during a test…
Napkin math for me puts newer fridges at 4x more efficient. I’ve got cheap hydro power in Canada, but that would still be about $150/year more in electricity use to keep the old one.
I wonder how energy efficient it is compared to modern refridgerators.
Would a different argument be - which is worse, the energy innefficency of vintage - or the massive amounts of waste produced by modern efficient crap that is disposable.
you can still easily buy new dumb fridges, smart fridges are still in minority and you will save lot of money on electricity compared to 40 year old fridge
Once a product is sold, you are dead to me. Go away. That’s the Samsung philosophy. Note that it’s also the philosophy in most parts of the world outside the West. Once transaction is done, that’s it. go away.
Sadly most people don't care (until something happens to them) and western manufacturers will pay the price for not engaging in similar behaviour.
That depends. If something doesn't last as long as I expect I'm going to look for a different manufacture, while if it lasts as long as I expect and they give good support I might buy (and more importantly tell my friends to buy). On expensive things I also research from the likes of Consumer Reports to see what lasts.
Fridge owners should start taking them to small claims court. This seems like a financial liability that these appliance manufactures may not have anticipated. Would be a shame if it became a trend for hackers to brick smart appliances in mass?
Did Gilfoyle hack Jian Yang's smart fridge again?
I chuckled at the title.
In India where people buy the devices with lowest possible cost, i have never seen a smart washing machine so far and rarely a smart fridge. The cost of the smart module doesn’t offset the cost of spying yet i guess.
Me, in the US, tried to buy a non smart oven a couple years ago. I could not find one (that fit the space the old oven was in). I also did not see any with knobs that I could turn for less than $10k. They all had the plastic covered membrane buttons.
The Internet of Things I Won't Buy.
To me they saied i should send it in. By mail
I'm just surprised they didn't freeze it with an ad on screen
Better to freeze a fridge than to cook it
Reminded me of the August incident where the freezers at multiple U.S. Department of Defense commissionaires were remotely triggered to enter into "defrost" mode and cooked all their refrigerated food overnight.
This holds for most things, actually.
I have yet to understand what the value proposition of an internet-connected refrigerator is.
I can imagine one good use: plotting graphs of inner temperature, configured set point, motor on/off status, door open/closed status, and power consumption. But that use case does not require having control of the fridge compressor...
If the temperature goes out of acceptable range than then it is defective. The only people who need that plot are the lawyers for the class action lawsuit for a defective appliance.
There are scientific reasons to need the plot, but that is not normal and they likely need a special fridge with tighter controls or something anyway.
If there is a door open sensor there should be a close door function.
I’d just throw an analog min/max thermometer in there and investigate if the max temp goes above 40F, sounds a lot easier than adding a temp probe and door switch to a residential refrigerator.
There is already a door switch in all the refrigerators I have used. It controls the light (at least I think it does, I have never seen the light go off:)
Close the door very slowly. If you do it right, you'll see the light turn off.
Or, y'know, press the switch yourself.
It might be nice to email me about errors and warnings. But at least my fridge will post errors on the temperature displays, and it's usually the same error (compressor is running too long; better clean the coils).
Plus, since it's a Sub-Zero, it's got a pretty cool finishing move.
As someone who is bad at tracking what food I have in there and how long I have to eat it until it spoils, I can see the use for some automation here and that would be complex enough for convenient updates to make sense. Similarly, when I'm at the store I don't always know if I still have enough of $perishable or if I should get more.
I however have zero trust in our tech industry making this work without abusing me at every possibility so I will never buy such a product.
Your fridge must be a complex place to navigate. We have 70cm wide tall Siemens one and what we have vs what is missing is a question of maybe 10-15s check. This covers 4 people.
Chest freezers would be more tricky if full and could take maybe up to a minute but we don't have those. If you are bad at tracking, make a list.
No, we really don't need 'smart' fridges and people should vote with their wallets.
I do not disagree with your sentiment. We have had refrigerators for 100+ years [citation needed] after all. Still there are likely cases where it is useful. Looking in on elderly family members might include picking up things from the grocery store and having a list of staples needed might be an example. There are plenty of ways to deal with this but one might be a connected refrigerator.
> We have had refrigerators for 100+ years [citation needed]
If you’re thinking about the domestic appliance, apparently since 1913 [1], so close enough (what a stupid name, though). AFAICT the first one with something that looks like the modern cooling loop is the first Frigidaire from 1916. But the concept of refrigeration to keep food for longer is older.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOMELRE
Here's a crazy thought, you could just talk to your elderly family members.
I live with an elderly person (as a caretaker) and find that elderly persons are not always good sources of information about needs. It could be that I am completely wrong about the usefulness of a connected refrigerator (I just look in out 1980's era fridge).
> Looking in on elderly family members might include picking up things from the grocery store and having a list of staples needed might be an example
You would turn up unannounced with things you think are missing from the fridge surveillance camera? Here's how that should go: Visit old person. Check fridge. Check cupboards. Visit store. Visit old person.
You jest but having elderly parents tens of miles outside of town it's a timesaver, luckily I can still request photos of things.
...oddly enough:
Marketing demands products that sound awesomely cool and new and shiny and feature-laden.
Why should anyone care about stuff that happens after Sales has gotten the customer's money?
Not as bad a putting a mime in the fridge screen, I suppose...
Honestly I just loathe korean tech. I still don't get what makes korean brands _extra_ shitty. Like these dark patterns are all over the world but somehow korean brands crank it up to one more level.
From fridge to freezer
How to turn a refrigerator into a brick.
Smart fridges dumb clients.
it's a freezer lgtm
freeze-in-hell.bat man!
https://www.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/0def6aed-0b5b-4856-874a-d97...
An official update hard (and permanently) bricked my S8 phone back when it was still the flagship. Samsung refused to fix or replace it because I had moved overseas meanwhile.
While "technically" valid, this never happened with iPhones despite frequent travels.
Don't buy Samsung consumer devices.
I'd never buy a Samsung fridge, but ironically I'm loyal to Samsung phones because they've always worked out well for me and I've had bad experiences with Apple and Google hardware. I'd just never buy one of their smart appliances, or any smart appliance for that matter.
Yup, Chinese voted with their wallets, so Samsung had to exit their market after Samsung Note 7 double standards fiasco, good for them.
Imagine this happening to cars on the road. So much for the connected world paradigm.
Any "centralization" is against humanity and nature.
"My fridge has frozen - how do I defrost it?"
The fridge compressor answers to software? Idiocy. It need be nothing more than a relay attached to a thermocouple. I can see having a smart screen to deliver aps/ads and to collect data on people in the home, but why on earth would that need to actually manipulate temperatures?
Fridge sellers dont want their product to be seen as commodities, because they can't charge a high margin on those type of products.
In 2006 shortly after I bought my (first and still only) home, I bought the cheapest Kenmore fridge from Sears (~$600 at the time) as the one that came with the house failed soon after moving in - it was probably 26 years old with metal grill shelves. I was stretched for money for a bit due to dealing with closing costs, etc. I figured it'd last 5-10 years and I'd just get a new, "better" one when my cashflow wasn't acutely tight.
Despite having since remodelled the kitchen (again spending more than expected as one does when renovating), I kept the fridge...it's still working fine 20 years later, though the plastic drawers are starting to degrade. Next to higher-end German appliances it looks a bit well worn and out of place in an otherwise very nicely renovated kitchen, which my wife and I semi-seriously joke gives the place character.
Every once in awhile I'll wander through an appliance aisle and sigh. Similar fridges feel cheap and are much more expensive. In fancy fridges, I just see more components that'd fail. I'll I really want is a freezer and a fridge. I want need an ice maker (especially after learning how gross they can get). Ideally I'd have a standard old-fashioned sized fridge that had a good separate temperature control for the freezer and is common enough that I can get replacement parts 20 years from now.
The kicker was I now realize the old 26 year old fridge probably just needed a coolant top up. Maybe that wasn't possible as I'm not sure when freon was banned and if it would have been possible to do that.
Old fridges last over two decades. I don't think that Samsung and others want these to last as long.
I guess the sellers and industries should have thought of this when they offloaded manufacturing to cheap countries that can and will undercut them.
Samsung fridges are made in Korea. i.e. not outsourced.
They're just very bad at software.
Most non high-end samsung fridges aren't built in Korea, lower-end fridges are made in Vietnam and midrange fridges are made in China or Thailand. Regardless of Samsung outsourcing they still have to compete with outsourcing firms. There's only so much demand for fridges, 100-200 million fridges a year worldwide, and most of the consumer fridges end up primarily competing on price.
My non-Samsung fridge lets me change the temperature settings from my phone.
That’s why the compressor answers to software. How else would I change the temperature remotely if it didn‘t?
I find that the anti-smart device brigade among tech enthusiasts is very detached from the reality of what consumers want. The general public does demand smart features and they want them to work well.
The sin here isn’t that the fridge is smart, the sin is that bad software was pushed out.
My particular refrigerator also has a purposefully limited set of features. You’ll notice that real luxury brands like Sub-Zero don’t pack their refrigerators with crazy feature lists and touch screens. Their smart apps are basic and focus on essentials like “door left open” or “change filter” notifications and remote temperature adjustment. They don’t have complicated features like craft cocktail ice and even basic stuff like water dispensing is an optional extra (since it’s assumed that luxury clients may have a separate dedicated reverse osmosis and sparkling water machine for that). They don’t push out frequent updates and they keep their smart functions as modular components since it’s assumed that the refrigerator will remain installed permanently for decades (e.g., you can add a newer control system with touch screen and WiFi to your older Sub-Zero fridge).
It would be nice if non-luxury brands followed some of these philosophies a little more.
> How else would I change the temperature remotely if it didn‘t?
...why do you need to change the fridge temperature remotely?
I paid $11,000 for my luxury built-in refrigerator, I expect that functionality to exist since it’s trivial to implement.
I could implement that in a weekend on an ESP board.
When you had an offline fridge did you ever find yourself in a situation where remotely setting the temperature would have been useful?
I’m away on vacation and weather reports say there might be a thunderstorm at my house with high probability of power outage, so maybe I lower the temperature setting to try and extend the life of the contents.
Kids/nanny/housekeeper changes the temperature against my wishes.
I’ve left the house for a long vacation with the fridge emptied and I’d like to change the temperature to consume less power while I’m gone, forgot to do it before I left.
And again it’s trivially simple functionality that costs almost no money or development effort to I implement.
> so maybe I lower the temperature setting to try and extend the life of the contents.
Bullshit. The ideal refrigerator temperature is already close enough to freezing that any small adjustment you could make is unlikely to do any good. If this was actually a good idea then by your logic (similar to odd love for printer manufacturers) the all wise manufacturers would have already incorporated this into their “smart” fridges.
By that logic there's a whole lot more useless crap it should do.
Would you buy a car that cost $50,000 without air conditioning even if you don’t need air conditioning?
Do you think a $50,000 car that doesn’t have air conditioning is a good value?
My non-Samsung fridge lets me change the temperature settings from my phone. That’s why the compressor answers to software. How else would I change the temperature remotely if it didn‘t?
I can't tell if you're serious or sarcastic, so I'll bite: why on Earth would you ever want to change the temperature settings of your fridge?
Check out his comments in this thread, this guy appears to be a corporate apologist.
Check them out on other threads, too. I think he’s just a garden troll.
I don’t really appreciate being assumed to be a troll just because I’m holding a contrary opinion. That’s very much against the guidelines of this site.
I think if you are the type who is interested in digging up comment history you’ll find plenty of comments from me that show that I’m pretty much a regular person who has respectful conversations.
I apologize if I didn’t follow the popular “corporation bad” narrative. Like, I do recognize that ink is grossly overpriced and all that. At the same time, I don’t really think we are held hostage by printer companies these days. I buy ink once a year or less and it’s not even a laser printer. It isn’t a significant expense or inconvenience.
Because the temperature is adjusted and they want to be able to display the current temperature as well as the target on said display? And once you’ve done that, your bean counters will pressure you to shave the BOM.
Not saying it’s smart, just laying out a plausible sequence of events on how they reached that decision
> they want to be able to display the current temperature
Do they really? When replacing my 20 year old fridge (that had an actual mechanical temperature gauge) with a new one I specifically bought one that had a (now digital, of course) display for the current temperature.
It turned out that the temperature display is completely faked. It always shows exactly the set temperature, from the moment you power it on. I guess because of (actual or imagined) customers complaining why their fridge shows e.g. 7°C when they set it to 4°C.
Incidentally, my new smart AC does exactly the same thing. Subjectively it's worse than the old one at keeping the place not too cold and not too warm, but it makes damn sure to never show the actual measured temperature anywhere.
Everything is getting dumber.
It probably has more to do with consumer fridges being a bang-bang controller situation where temperature will always fluctuate several degrees either side of the desired number.
Well, yes. Hence my comment.
Or are you saying old fridges didn't have a bang-bang controller and hence could have an honest thermometer built in?
2028 headline: Coordinated attack causes all fridges in Topeka to explode, causes city-wide fire.
Does a relay with a thermocouple get you the cycles required for no-frost features? I agree that there should be adequate safeguards at every turn but its not like computerized control of fridge temperature doesn't make sense.
A thermocouple won't drive a relay.
I hate news websites so much. Everything has to be a fucking joke.
Suck it JinYang.