There are already 100 million HarmonyOS devices in China, so you could say it's now a three-way rivalry. The apps I use every day basically all have native HarmonyOS versions, including even foreign apps like Tesla and Sam's Club.
I've actually been using HarmonyOS for half a year now, and it feels pretty good — the notifications and system smoothness are on par with iOS. The reason I don't use an iPhone is that I need NFC access control, which iOS doesn't support.
Huawei has invested a large amount of manpower to station people in major companies to help develop HarmonyOS. I think they have already broken the vicious cycle of "no users -> no apps -> even fewer users."
Moreover, in the current AI era, it has become easier for Chinese developers to port software to HarmonyOS. For example, Moonlight, the streaming software I often use, has several natively customized and optimized versions available in the HarmonyOS app store.
OP is asking about Linux phones. HarmonyOS doesn't even run Linux kernel at all.
HarmonyOS 5.x+ both discards the common Unix-like Linux kernel and replaces the previous multiple-kernel, kernel agnostic system from OpenHarmony with its own bespoke HarmonyOS microkernel as a single framework.
“From 2019 to 2024, versions 1 to 4.3 (4.5 TV) of the operating system were built by integrating the Android Open Source Project (AOSP) with OpenHarmony, allowing it to support both HarmonyOS and Android apps. The current iteration of HarmonyOS became known as HarmonyOS NEXT (later it was renamed HarmonyOS 5 in launched of Pura X). HarmonyOS NEXT was announced on August 4, 2023, and officially launched on October 22, 2024. It also replaced the OpenHarmony multi-kernel system with its own HongMeng Kernel at its core and removed all Android code. Since version 5, HarmonyOS only supports apps in its native "App" format.
HarmonyOS 5.x+ both discards the common Unix-like Linux kernel and replaces the previous multiple-kernel, kernel agnostic system from OpenHarmony with its own bespoke HarmonyOS microkernel as a single framework.”
⇒ this shows it’s possible to create a new stack. It’s not Linux, though, and I think a large reason for this succeeding is that it started in the Chinese market after the US sanctioned Huawei.
> this shows it’s possible to create a new stack. It’s not Linux, though, and I think a large reason for this succeeding is that it started in the Chinese market after the US sanctioned Huawei.
Even so, I think it's helpful in that it weakens the duopoly. If app builders are getting used to building apps for other platforms than Android/iOS, it hopefully also becomes easier for others to gain some foothold.
Especially given the heavy commissions and other developer-hostile behaviour of these two. They've been essentially treating devs like shit and IMO a reckoning has been coming for a while now. Of course, you do have to meet the users where they are, at least up to a point.
> The Chinese government literally pushed companies to develop app for HarmonyOS [0].
Like the U.S. government is not pushing and investing its own companies, providing incentives, funding etc. etc. It's what sovereign governments are supposed to do.
> Have fun finding out what happens if you don't.
What is that even supposed to mean? You're going to a camp if you don't have a HarmonyOS app? That is just something that propagandists append to every post about China as if it means something. Get better propaganda, this is old and tired. I can stay random shit like the US is about to livestream an execution by a firing squad too, see?
> Like the U.S. government is not pushing and investing its own companies, providing incentives, funding etc. etc. It's what sovereign governments are supposed to do.
What's your point? My comment is not in contradiction to that.
> That is just something that propagandists append
You can do name calling all day long but that's not meaningful and will get you banned.
I strongly suggest that you reply with content with more substance in it, or just not reply at all.
Does Huawei provide an Android virtual machine with Google frameworks built in? When I was traveling in Japan, I used Google Maps, and for daily use, Chrome and 1Password all worked fine.
In my daily use, only three apps run in the virtual machine: 1Password, Steam, and Chrome. They all run normally, but they're a bit laggy.
Huawei has a Google Mobile Services (GMS) equivalent called HMS, which acts as a compatibility layer and prevents Apps from throwing errors when running on their Android APK-support layer.
However, as I understood, in China HarmonyOS next has no Anroid-emulation layer (which is probably a wise decision if you want to drive domestic app-developers to support your platform...)
While I prefer Apple's design language partly because it's rooted from Sony and I love how Sony does this since eternity, I strongly support having multiple top-notch designers and builders from different countries.
This is what genuine competition is and drives things forward.
I have a Mate 80 RS Ultimate Design and I think it looks beautiful in person, but as you know, Chinese and Western design preferences are very different, just look at their EV's (and how western brands are copying their designs)
Design was important enough to you to post your own comment talking about it and your own preferences, and how important it is to competition, so why are you questioning it's importance to someone else?
Because I see design as a proxy to build quality and ergonomics. I'm not shopping for looks while getting my electronic devices, I'm shopping for quality and longevity of the thing in question.
If it's built well, dependable, ergonomic and delivers on the promise it's written on the box, I'm perfectly happy with what I got.
Yes, I have my tastes, like everybody else, but I don't satisfy my taste first and try to fill the specs to that taste. On the contrary, I start with the features and quality level I want, and go from there.
Did you read the comment I was replying to? The commenter claimed Huawei had the lead in design. I begged to differ. I'd accept the design of the 90 Pro Max on a $300 phone, but a $2,000 phone? lol
That's your personal opinion on a piece of hardware. If that's so important for you, you can look to other alternatives.
...and in my comment, I kindly disagreed with you. I have used many things with great enjoyment which were called ugly by many people.
It's OK and natural to have different opinions and priorities, and hardware design is not a first priority as long as it's uncomfortable on my checklist.
As a side note, apparently, you can add an extra camera module with a 1" sensor to that "lock" you seem to dislike. Considering the best camera is the one you have, having an additional camera with better sensor for people who are inclined to dabble into photography is a great thing.
...and I'm contemplating on how can I take my mirrorless with me during flights in a compact way even if I have an iPhone.
There's also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaiOS that developed from FirefoxOS and powers something like 100 million feature phones in the developing world.
Have they support copy paste between apps? Since WhatsApp abandoned the platform I figured it is in life support. Almost no one use SMS in developing worlds, it's WhatsApp all the way.
HarmonyOS (especially meaning Huawei phones) is pretty much dead outside China, that's like saying WeChat is relevant messaging app outside China
if you can't run all your favorite bank apps in your phone any phone is dead nowadays, no matter whether it is Linux or HarmonyOS
and seems EU is fine with keeping Apple/Google duopoly in app verification, so although you can use European bank and pay with QR codes without MC/Visa, you still need US company verifying your phone so you can use European bank app, sad state of current things
> if you can't run all your favorite bank apps in your phone any phone is dead nowadays
I guess I've been running dead phones for ::checks notes:: a quarter century now? I actually don't even know if my primary banking institution (a regional credit union) has an app to begin with. It's never occurred to me to need it.
My phone can't run any of my bank's apps, is it dead too?
I appreciate your intended point was probably more specific, perhaps 'will not be a mass market success in the west', but there is a great diversity of people in the world and many of them have different requirements of a phone
for 99.5% potential buyers yes, it is, if it can't run bank apps (or other apps requiring GMS), personally I don't use banking apps on phone but I realize I am extreme negligible minority, which is why I said "pretty much dead", that "pretty much" covers that <0.5% users
go travel a bit, there's an entire world out there that isn't waiting around
when i go to the mall here, i counted 6 korean copycat shops lol
asia is living a completely different lifestyle than us, and its popular even with us, especially with women, and its actually good, and we're still here saying asian shit is irrelevant
The reality is that The Western Civilization, or however you frame and name your own personal lifestyle, is not as huge and dominant as it might seem to you. Every countries have own sets of apps and webs. __1984 is a work of fiction__; there is no united Oceania, Eurasia or Eastasia in real life.
And millions of Chinese bash it everyday. Shit storage efficiency, stagnated UX experience, very closed ecosystem and external link blocking, I could go on.
I've lived in various Asian countries for the last 10 years, but I've never seen Wechat used except for communication and payments with people from mainland China.
Same with Gojek. They tried launching in other countries, but it never caught on outside of Indonesia, where yes it's huge and awesome.
Grab, on the other hand, has been very successful internationally.
> go travel a bit, there's an entire world out there that isn't waiting around
> asia is living a completely different lifestyle than us, and its popular even with us, especially with women, and its actually good, and we're still here saying asian shit is irrelevant
I lived in China 5+ years and spent plenty of time in other Asian countries travelling, so how to say it politely - stop talking about "us" and preaching me about lifestyle in Asia if you are completely clueless.
WeChat is shit app pushed down the Chinese throats (I remember when QQ was still the king), because it doesn't have competition in China and you can't really exist in China without it, closed sourced with no E2E encryption for starters, there is reason why pretty much nobody outside China/Chinese community uses this actively spying app.
So yes, if by Asian shit, you mean HarmonyOS and WeChat, then yes, Asian shit is irrelevant, because pretty much nobody outside Asia uses it for good reasons (HarmonyOS because it is unusable if you wanna use normal banking apps and most of the other apps relying on GMS besides those very very few ported apps or using some virtual machine workarounds, personally I don't need banking apps and used smartphones without gapps for the last 10 years, but I am realist realizing I may be among like <0.5% Android users in Europe, completely irelevant negligible number).
Isn't HarmoniousOS just a blatant Android OS clone, with serial numbers and licenses filed off? I remember ArsTechnica reported on that waaaay back when it was released.
It would have to be somewhat more global than only in China though. After all Google's spyphones also operates globally, more or less, even if Google is a ruthless US tool for abuse of other markets. IMO we need to get rid of all companies though. That's not realistic, but it really should happen. I just do not trust any of these private entities anymore; verifiable open source and open hardware at all times should become the new standard. Is anyone really using Win11? Ever since the recall-spy feature I knew I could not commit to it; whether I can disable it or not is not a useful distinction since there is no more trust in that private blob, now supported via AI slop.
- Worse compatibility with the millions of Android apps already out there.
- Hardware vendors (outside Apple) all target Android.
- The usability of Android/iOS is far better than non-Android Linux phones.
- The security of non-Android Linux phones is in a bad state (e.g. lacking proper app sandboxing). Heck, even the Android emulation layers that some of these phones have, throw the strong Android sandbox model out of the window.
The answer is very obvious and it is AOSP. Even though Google is trying to close AOSP more (e.g. by not pushing source continuously to the AOSP Git repos and keeping QPR1/3 for themselves), it is still an open source system. Play Services can either be run sandboxed or emulated with microG. AOSP allows alternative systems to hit the ground running, you get great app compatibility, a tested security model, great usability, and support from hardware vendors, including vendors that are alternative friendly (used to be Pixel, now Motorola, Fairphone, etc.). If ever needed, AOSP could be forked and it would still be leagues ahead of non-Android Linux phones.
All the downsides that apply to AOSP-based systems (like things getting blocked by Play Integrity, unlockable bootloaders) also apply to non-Android Linux systems.
The lack of polish is a function of the inability to use the hardware. The hardware is tightly gatekept so competition _cannot_ exist. Regulators are the only ones who can force vendors to distribute documentation for and unlock their hardware.
Once we can actually target the hardware, open source alternatives will be much better than first party options.
You can already see the potential in the open source world.
Linux has Waydroid so Android apps can be run on Linux at full speed without emulation. That means, if you had a Linux phone, you have the entire Android library - the only thing lacking is the launcher. How hard is a launcher to program? It's just Steam's big picture mode.
Other examples of the nice things we can't have; FEX lets you run Steam games on phone hardware. Open source drivers can unlock displayport over USBC. Instantly your phone becomes a thin client / laptop replacement that can play PC games (poorly, but 1080p games are possible).
We are _not allowed_ to do these things. I love OS development and, if I was allowed, I'd make iOS look like janky trash.
So, where are the super-polished Linux systems for the Fairphone? I know they use proprietary firmware blobs and that the hardware support is Android-oriented. But they publish device trees, driver sources, and firmware. Most AOSP-based projects support Fairphone, as well as PostmarketOS and ubports.
The problem is not only hardware support, the problem is also that the stack on top of it is very immature compared to AOSP and not something you could give to a daily phone user.
It’s funny that you mention Waydroid. It throws most of Android’s strong security model out of the window.
> So, where are the super-polished Linux systems for the Fairphone?
It still has tiny market reach. Very few people are going to invest the time needed to build a quality user experience for like 1000 users.
Just imagine what would happen if Linux could be installed on the iPhone. There would be SteamOS distributions within an hour of the announcement.
> It’s funny that you mention Waydroid. It throws most of Android’s strong security model out of the window.
Haha yea, it's more an example of capabilities that could be rolled into highly polished user experiences. Again, if Linux could be installed on the iPhone - I'm certain Waydroid maintainers would shut the project down from PRs.
> It still has tiny market reach. Very few people are going to invest the time needed to build a quality user experience for like 1000 users.
That doesn't make sense. Whenever someone wants to build something, they start with 0 users. They don't say "huh, I have 0 users, I'm not going to build a good product".
People who build things recognize that they won't get more users if they don't make their product better. If you have 1,000 users and you want 1,000,000 users, you work more, not less.
The lack of polish is a function of the inability to use the hardware. The hardware is tightly gatekept so competition _cannot_ exist. [...] Once we can actually target the hardware, open source alternatives will be much better than first party options.
So, it's not the hardware gatekeeping that is the issue, it's that nobody is polishing the experience for hardware that already exists and qualifies. The hardware can also be purchased very easily in some regions (e.g. Europe). I can literally hop on a bike right now and pick up a Fairphone in ten minutes. I know that it's different in e.g. the US, but Murena has been selling them in the US for years now.
I think you may be glossing over a bit how annoying / messy / complicated it can be to work with the binary blobs and their quirks, especially when dealing with complex things like camera(s) and the image processing stack. Doubly so for community developers who may have limited or no access to documentation and resources that the device manufacturers get from the more low-level hardware vendors.
If Fairphone wanted, I'm relatively sure that they could form a cooperation with Jolla, Librem, KDE or other entities in the space and get Plasma Mobile, Sailfish or whatever working on their phones and/or design the next-gen Fairphone with hardware that has as few quirks as possible and is as "easy" to get to work with Linux as possible.
I'm also relatively sure that so far, that would not have made economic sense for them. However, there seems to be a bit of a surge in people wanting alternatives. The recent Jolla phone has way more orders and pre-orders than were anticipated, for example. And SailfishOS is certainly "polished" enough that the circle of people who can use it well (or at least live with it) has expanded beyond the developer / hacker / activist crowd.
Now, if we had support for say, a pixel, that would probably change things. Incidentally, there seems to be initial support for the tensor G5 (pixel 10 onwards)
How many years did it take to make a well-polished DE on desktop Linux? How large was the community doing that and how many devices did they have access to?
The difference is that there is already a great open source smartphone OS that works today, it’s AOSP.
The most effective path would be for the FLOSS ecosystem to pour their resources into making AOSP independent from Google. But instead people will just fork N half- or non-working solutions for reasons.
This comes up every time, I just don't understand the argument. You can fork AOSP when that happens. It will still be far less work than bootstrapping a viable open source alternative from scratch. Also maintaining a forked AOSP would be less work than getting the Linux desktop stack on the same level as AOSP.
Given that Android apps target old API levels, it would also stay compatible for years and nothing would hold you from implementing APIs from the docs.
To be honest, I don't think AOSP will fully close up, since Google probably fears the regulatory pressure and the fallout from vendors. The larger risk is Play Integrity, but that applies equally to other Linux systems if you want to tap into the large Android app ecosystem. But the solution for that is not technical, the EU and other regulatory bodies should make forbid it in its current form due to anti-competitiveness.
> This comes up every time, I just don't understand the argument. You can fork AOSP when that happens
Hacking on the Linux stack is several orders of magnitude more practical than AOSP though. AOSP's build system is massively unwieldy for individual contributors to work on. You can't easily work on any of the system components without dedicating >100 GiB of storage for a build, for example. Everything is scattered across hundreds of repositories tied together with a bespoke repository management tool.
This all works for a company equipped with entire build infrastructure teams, not for a grassroots project trying to keep up maintenance with (at best) limited funding. It's why Nura (fka postmarketOS) is a thing whereas the various AOSP forks barely ever modify the core experience.
About 5 years, Mandrake and SuSE with KDE around 1996 were already quite good.
Since then the problem has always been the same, rebooting the DE experience for the sake of it, desktop environment wars, rebooting the development stack from GNOME and KDE, and the problem that despite all OEMs have Linux running on their data centers, the community has to reverse engineer the hardware from the same OEMs.
Yeah, I think people are underestimating how good and competitive the Linux desktop was in the past. Around ~2000 there was a lot of excitement around the Linux desktop, the Linux desktop was pretty mature, especially compared to the tire fire that Windows 9x was at the time (that changed when the NT branch moved to the consumer with XP). There were very user-friendly installers like Caldera OpenLinux (best feature was that you could play Tetris during the install) and Corel Linux. Also a lot of large vendors were making Linux desktop apps, e.g. Corel Wordperfect and Borland Kylix (which was Delphi for Linux). Heck, even Microsoft Office ran almost perfectly with CrossOver.
But yeah, then there was the constant forking, preferring rebooting development over iterative improvement (e.g. GNOME 2 -> 3 was really a hard cut for a lot of people, resulting in forks that exist till this day), hostility towards closed-source applications (you can hate them as much as you want, but people are not abandoning Photoshop/Illustrator for GIMP/Inkscape on a whim), etc.
Hopefully something changes with all the government-driven sovereignty desktops that are popping up, the resulting influx of money, and KDE EV et al. becoming very mature organizations.
By such measure, GNU/Linux phones are already quite good. I use Librem 5 with Phosh as a daily driver, and it is really just fine. Except the battery life, app compatibility and smoothness of the UI.
What's the viability of regulators requiring such documentation out of vendors? Feel free to extend the scope out to up to 5 years if it does not look viable right now.
Introducing initiatives that encourage competition is bad for business so I empathise with megacorporations for not doing it without regulation. The annoying part is they are also the largest lobby groups, so it's unlikely the US will be the leader of change here.
If I would draft policy that could make it I'd suggest;
- Scoped to companies above a "number of units sold globally" threshold.
- Documentation must be supplied 3, maybe 5 years after hardware release (similar to "generic drugs").
This means small hardware startups are not burdened by the overhead in creating docs, and megacorps retain the ability to extract profit during the period of maximum profitability for the product. The eventual expiry would encourage companies to innovate (I think malicious compliance is unlikely).
With the recent push to decouple dependance on US technology companies, I see this as possible (though still unlikely) in the EU, perhaps Canada.
This perspective I can't wrap my head around. Like I get that you wouldn't use it, and that's fine - but if Linux was available and we made it incredible, that would push Apple (and Google) to do better. So you'd get a better MacOS / iOS by proxy.
Like, don't we want competition? What motivates people to desire an unchallenged status quo?
I have a genuine, but maybe stupid/trivial sounding question. Does anyone successfully run cloud instances of Waydroid so that their physical phone is a dumb client?
I've been thinking about it for a long time, but it seems like such a privacy risk even when self-hosted. The massive upside is that the phone is just a VM. The idea makes the entire phone debate irrelevant since you can access your "phone" from any other computer that has internet access. If the connection is lost, the local device can always sync later or at least provide basic call/text functionality.
I am often finding things I prefer about one of the OSs (or Desktop Environments in the case of Linux) that the others don't have. I can usually see how people prefer any particular one over the other.
The usual suspects are the keyboard support in Windows (enabling the extended keyboard navigation in MacOS made some apps act very strangely), and most of the look and feel of MacOS. There have even been things I really liked in ChromeOS.
Obviously there are many nice touches in the big Linux DEs, and I would rather be in KDE Plasma than anywhere else. Because of this, I'm generally not surprised when I encounter something that is done better than Windows or MacOS.
However...!
Yesterday I was editing filenames in the file browser, and accidentally navigated down to the next file in the folder - still in filename editing mode! It was a feature I didn't even know I wanted. Suddenly, I could edit a whole list of files, just as if it were rows in a text file. Now it's Monday, and I'm back in Windows. I am unlikely to need to use that feature, but still wish I didn't know what I was missing.
> Yesterday I was editing filenames in the file browser, and accidentally navigated down to the next file in the folder - still in filename editing mode! It was a feature I didn't even know I wanted. Suddenly, I could edit a whole list of files, just as if it were rows in a text file. Now it's Monday, and I'm back in Windows. I am unlikely to need to use that feature, but still wish I didn't know what I was missing.
In case you do ever need it - you can do this in Windows with the tab key.
That is quite nice! I don't think I ever knew that. It doesn't feel quite as nice as using the down arrow in a list/details view, but it's plenty good enough.
Anyone have the equivalent for MacOS? :) I don't have any MacOS devices handy.
> Play Services can either be run sandboxed or emulated with microG.
Play Services is absolutely not needed for a usable Android experience. I am running GrapheneOS without any Google crap and you could not pay me to do so.
Many bank apps, and apps to interact with official state services, usually depend on Play Services. Sometimes it is all banks in one's country, so no, one can't just "switch to another bank" as US Americans on HN often assume.
Can't speak for all countries ofc, but the happy path isn't just the US. I've heard positive reports in Europe where banking apps work without Play services more often than not, and if it doesn't some banks will actually change implemented policy once a customer complains.
I was saying this just to be ahead of all the comments that usually come up with "yeah, but Google has increasingly put new APIs in Play Services, so AOSP is worthless".
I used to do this, but an increasing number of apps fail to work without play services. Luckily Google still lets you create accounts on android phones, so you can create a fresh account with a random name for every phone, and take care you don't give it access to something identifiable.
I know it is entirely possible for Google to uniquely identify me for each account, but I choose to believe they don't go out of their way to use EVERY possible information about you to track you and only use things that you "accept" via their EULAs, like syncing contacts or logging in to the same service with both accounts, etc.
Actually, with the recent advances in LLMs - they could. If people start to reverse their phones and upstream to Linux, we would not need the hardware vendors to support their own hardware even.
I disagree. Working on AOSP with Google having so much control of it is just a waste of time. You have no guarantees what you are working for, in the future.
I'd go full Linux, the effort is worth it and will pay out in the future. Google has the AOSP project by the balls and it's a very high risk investing anything into it, as a developer.
With today's LLM tech might as well do something nice with Linux.
So fork AOSP today. You actually have a working stack, working systems (Lineage, GrapheneOS, /e/OS), and it's far less work than bringing mobile Linux up to the level of AOSP.
But no, let's reinvent the wheel and start the complete ecosystem from scratch. Of course, looking at the history of Linux, this is not surprising at all. Even something immature as mobile Linux already has multiple projects + stacks (Sailfish, ubports, Plasma Mobile, PureOS, etc.) trying to achieve the same. I say this as a long time Linux user (since 1994), the Linux desktop community manages to shoot itself in the foot over and over again.
I don't think you understand the reason people want mobile linux. I want to be able to run arbitrary binaries and get access to graphics primitives on my phone, AOSP does none of this. I honestly don't even get the point of AOSP, the way you don't for mobile linux.
I want to be able to run arbitrary binaries and get access to graphics primitives on my phone, AOSP does none of this.
People use a phone for their most private information, including banking credentials, credit card credentials, car keys, etc. The banks, etc. are never going to permit running their apps on devices that can run arbitrary binaries. Most are already blocking rooted Android devices and Android devices with an unlocked bootloader. The fact that this is still possible on desktops (though not everywhere anymore, e.g. my bank requires you to use a phone app for authentication) is for historical reasons.
Also, you are an extremely small niche. If you are sufficiently motivated, you can live like that (run Linux phones, work around banks, etc.), but this will never be mainstream and this was implied in the question of the post (Will Linux phones become a viable alternative to the Android/iOS duopoly?).
If there will be a viable alternative to the Android/iOS duopoly, it will look a lot like Android/iOS. The best chance is an AOSP-based system like GrapheneOS.
You can still run traditional Linux desktop apps in a VM on such phones.
>but this will never be mainstream and this was implied in the question of the post (Will Linux phones become a viable alternative to the Android/iOS duopoly?)
The post goes into detail about the reason for the current duopoly is the difficulty in procuring modern SOCs with linux support, nothing to do with how said phones will be used.
And I don't really care about being able to bank on my phone, I would gladly buy a cheap android device for it if they stop you from being able to bank on desktop devices, I just need linux on phones because of how much android sucks for daily use and how annoying it is to do anything on it. If we do get the ability to run android on modern hardware, it stops being necessary to have a separate desktop/laptop as well, I could just use a dock, or just a keyboard and mouse instead, especially since the Macbook Neo has shown current mobile hardware is more than enough for "casual" desktop use.
> The fact that this is still possible on desktops (though not everywhere anymore, e.g. my bank requires you to use a phone app for authentication) is for historical reasons.
And you think that this is fine? I will fight for my rights for one.
> If ever needed, AOSP could be forked and it would still be leagues ahead of non-Android Linux phones.
I agree and thus donate to independent AOSP development (such as GrapheneOS).
It would probably be a great idea to replace many android components with components from the linux userspace ecosystem so that more code sharing between desktop linux distros and this is possible
I really enjoy having a phone that gives me full root control, and that is very similar to the Fedora (GNOME) distribution that I have on my desktop and laptop.
Buying a Linux phone from a pure Linux hardware vendor like Purism helps sustaining the mobile Linux ecosystem.
Yes, the Librem 5 is a bit older phone with some rough edges, but for me it is a really good phone. It gives freedom in the free software sense, and consistency with my Linux computers. I gladly accept some minor inconvenience to have a phone that respects my freedom and privacy.
I cannot foresee the future, but for me the experience on a Linux phone that I control is far more superior than any phone that spies on me and takes away my freedom, like Android or iOS, basically any phone from any manufacturer that disrespects me.
Unless regulators enforce (at the very least) that hardware documentation sufficient to produce open source firmware/drivers must be supplied with that hardware, no - probably not.
Drivers and firmware are the biggest hurdle outside of locked bootloaders for competition in the operating system space.
Examples; Anything Apple (MacBook, iPhone), anything Samsung, anything Google, the list goes on.
There _is_ open hardware, but it has poor performance / battery / build quality and the vast majority of users will not accept that.
IMO "the right to repair software" is essential and this duopoly is a function of explicit monopolistic practices.
Maybe LLMs can help open the "reverse engineering" Pandora's box - but we have yet to see that realised - at least for drivers / firmware
That's one way to look at it. I applaud Apple and co for what they have created, but even drugs have patent expiries, eventually becoming generics.
I'd be fine with that model - let them make money for 5 years recouping their R&D costs, then they must offer documentation so the community can repair / maintain the hardware themselves.
I personally see it as falling under "the right to repair" and selfishly, I know we can do more with the hardware than they are demonstrating. It's endlessly frustrating that we are not allowed to and then the devices just disappear forever.
>I applaud Apple and co for what they have created, but even drugs have patent expiries, eventually becoming generics.
In the US, all patents have 20 year terms (from initial patent filing). Of course, patents don’t tell you how to make something, so it’s not sufficient for something like smartphones or medicine.
I’m working on a personal OS, a personal website that runs on my computer and I access on my phone thru Tailscale.
Then I got thinking, could I not just make a phone and messages mini apps for my personal OS that tap into iMessage and FaceTime on my Mac? Even if those don’t have APIs, you could use computer use and accessibility. A 3rd OS should simply be the web and a thin client that connects to your MacBook thru Tailscale.
Let's make a thought experiment: let's think about designing a new Linux distro from scratch. Obviously starting with Linux-the-kernel, and then thinking about what we need to be a modern smartphone OS.
- We'll probably want the security model, with the nice sandboxing and I would argue the verified boot.
- We'll want the battery optimisation.
- We'll want access to the firmwares of the components running in the phone.
- ...
From the very first step "start from Linux-the-kernel", every single question I ask myself goes towards the Android design and away from the classical Linux distro design.
In other words, the open source Linux distribution that is the closest to a modern mobile system is... Android :-).
The best battery life I ever got on a smartphone was on a HTC One X back in 2013 or so. It had a custom ROM (Paranoid Android IIRC) where I stripped out all the google services, blocked all wakelocks and so on. It had an nvidia Tegra3 CPU, which had 4 normal ARM cores and a 5th tiny core that ran at 100Mhz or so max (with powersave governor). On that setup, when I was not using it, it drained like 2% battery a day (50 day runtime).
Since then we went from 40nm to 3nm, 2000mAh to 5000mAh, I'm doing the same things on my phone and yet, due to bloat and spyware the battery life is worse and worse. I went through HTC One m8, HTC 10, OnePlus 7Pro, and a Samsung Fold7 and each had worse efficiency than that 2011 CPU on the OneX (And a Nexus7-2012 until it died due to low quality NAND)
Even more so, it is the closest to Inferno's design, which was the evolution the UNIX founders went through.
Like they created UNIX, they declared it done, created Plan 9, followed by Inferno, most as a reaction to JavaOS, but still, the creators of UNIX moved on.
Whereas the FOSS community seems to be stuck in recreating Bell Labs in the 1970's.
Most of the FOSS community is hostile to even creating basic sandboxing. The Flatpak project gets panned all the time. Not for having a weak sandbox (which would be a fair criticism), but for having a sandbox at all and not using 90s-style package management.
A lot of people from the FOSS community seem to believe that (at least from recurring discussions) that Linux is secure because the software is open source and you can trust the maintainers. The idea that even trusted software can have vulnerabilities and that the 80s/90s security model of the standard Linux desktop means that you are only one Mastodon/e-mail/RSS/whatever client vulnerability away from exfiltration of your whole home directory does not even occur to them. All the while all these applications use (XML/image/...) parsers from the 90/00s written in C.
The only reason we don't see mass-exfiltration of data is because the Linux desktop marketshare is effectively meaningless. Though we see some results of the desktop security disaster (also to some extend of macOS) through leaked credentials obtained by compromised NPM, PyPI, etc. packages.
> Most of the FOSS community is hostile to even creating basic sandboxing.
> 90s-style package management
> 80s/90s security model
> parsers from the 90/00s
Perhaps the crux of the issue, and the reason these new systems get pushback, is because people, myself included, don't like being told that they have to stop using the tools that served them well for arbitrary reasons (usually age). Similarly, you can't expect everyone to trade user control, convenience, usability, and more for security, or sometimes perceived security.
We can debate about the 90s style package management, but old C-based file parsers and DAC access control were certainly not designed for modern attack vectors. Defending a device now requires layered security using a combination of among other things:
- Memory-safe languages where possible.
- Sandboxing of applications, parsers, etc., along with a strong permission model.
- Mitigation like secure app spawning, zeroing out pages, etc.
- Modern mitigation hardware-assisted mitigation like MTE and PAC.
- Storing secrets in a separate secure enclave (not ~/.config or ~/.ssh).
- Read-only and fully verified system partitions (anti-persistence).
from Apple's MIE docs [1] shows where modern systems like iOS and Android are. An attacker often needs a long exploit chain to compromise a device and it becomes increasingly difficult with various mitigation techniques. On the standard Linux desktop it's often as easy as exploiting an image parser in a client. Old parsers in C have a history of bad vulnerabilities, exploiting one often gives you privileges of the process calling the function, since Linux applications mostly don't separate/sandbox parsers and from there you have direct access to all data of the user, since Linux applications are typically not sandboxed.
Another angle on this is general reliability and what that does to the experience. I'm reminded of Linus having a moan about poor availability of ECC in consumer RAM and how many errors that get blamed on software are actually down to something happening to hardware but it isn't specifically identified. Plus when you're talking billions of devices even small proportions are significant. Firefox built a memory tester into their bug reporter tool as that 'noise' became a large enough problem for them.
Lets not forget that the motivations for Alef, and Limbo, from the C authors themselves, were also to improve language safety.
In Inferno, only the kernel, DisVM (+ JIT), and a few drivers are still C, everything else in userspace is Limbo.
> Limbo is the application programming language for the Inferno operating system. Although Limbo looks syntactically like C, it has a number of features that make it easier to use, safer, and more suited to the heterogeneous, networked Inferno environment: a rich set of basic types, strong typing, garbage collection, concurrency, communications, and modules. Limbo may be interpreted or compiled ‘just in time’ for efficient, portable execution.
Which is of course after having met those requirements IOS is basically android with a different name and closed source and we only need one player that isn't even properly foss.
Or why ChomeOS invalidates the need to keep working on kde/gnome/etc
Or that isn't the case and this is all just a silly comparison.
iOS and Android have an incredible amount of engineering to make them RAM and battery efficient that desktop Linux simply doesn't have.
And its not a case of simply implementing some feature, since all apps have to written with this stuff in mind: apps can be suspended/killed at any time and should be able to restart gracefully, notifications go through a side channel, etc etc
Looking at the amount of RAM phones have nowadays I don't know if this is an issue, desktop Linux runs fine with those amounts. Also Android is not really memory efficient so they needed this workaround.
I currently have 35 apps "open" on my iPhone, most of which are probably React Native or similar.
Other times I'm sure I've hit 60-70.
Because of iOS's app management feature, most of the apps are actually dead, but if I go back and open any of them, they will open and load on the screen on which I left them.
Android does this too.
Desktop Linux cannot.
Can I open 60-70 or even 35 Electron apps simultaneously on 8GB of RAM on Linux?
And no, I do not want to to back to closing apps, that is simply an inferior experience.
> they will open and load on the screen on which I left them.
You can't be serious. Browsers can't even remember the most trivial of things - a tiny html page, retaining reading position, forcing a reload.
Of course many apps are no better (though some do try, just like on the desktop)
And it's especially worse with user input that just gets lost
> And no, I do not w to to back to closing apps, that is simply an inferior experience.
Ctrl+Q to close and a shortcut to open or is a faster and more convenient than swiping around. As is typing an app's name on a real keyboard. Tapping "desktop" icon is arguably better, though, that a mouse click
Of course some apps implement this better or worse, but for an app that doesn't implement this, booting me to the home page (which is just one tap away from where I was) is still miles better than hogging ram.
I don't want to close apps, I don't want to manage my computer's resources.
And GPU buffers? And in-flight network requests? And notification handling? And D-Bus presence? And watchdogs? And other held resources like pids and fds?
This gets brought up several times in this discussion. Hardware with drivers, firmware and device trees exist, see e.g. Fairphone. It even works with open source camera apps (e.g. done in /e/OS). The problem is not (only) the hardware, it is that the Linux desktop stack is wholly unoptimized for phones. And the fact that Meego/Maemo/etc. are now almost two decades ago shows that it is not 'would be easy to solve'. Heck, Linux laptops, which have been available since forever still have far worse battery life than Windows or macOS.
You need a stack that is designed from first principles for phones. Luckily we have one that is open source (AOSP).
Depending on the phone they'd struggle to go in a low power state when the screen is off or can't access other power saving features because the manufacturers keep everything under wraps.
this. years ago i was working with Intel and Samsung to enable Tizen on x86 phones. energy management was the biggest problem they had. RISC won. moreover, 8 years later Apple was moving away from x86_64 to ARM, so one could say ARM won because of better energy management, either through lower usage or other types of energy saving techniques.
Google Pixel (ARM) had similar issues with battery life, or better yet battery drain during idle times.
People underestimate battery saving techniques. As in all software engineering, when the focus is enablement, optimizations take a second stage.
And it doesn't actually work reliably, at least on Android. My wife and I frequently don't get notifications from specific apps, only once we open them. My impression is that the platform just changes too frequently with regards of what you have to do to work well even when you're killed. Also, especially for push notifications, your now at the mercy of Googles service to delvier them to your app (not sure how the open source variants do it)
There is also the problem, that some OEMs add their own "battery optimizations". If you simply don't run anything its indeed very battery efficient...
Forcing push notifications through some central service has minimal benefits at best. Open source variants are forced to publish annoying persistent notifications and ask the user to flip some "battery optimization" toggle deep inside the settings to not get killed, of course this often enough changes with Android versions.
Some don't work at all, bc they must be GSF-only I guess (installed via Aurora store).
Others like Whatsapp or Signal sort of work but sometimes the app seems to not be running (even though I set up the no battery optimization). And I get multiple unread messages at once when manually starting the app.
I use sandboxed Google Play Services, Signal has been fine... I cannot say it's always immediate (I'm not always on my phone :-) ), but I have never been frustrated for "missing" a notification. Like when I check my phone, the Signal messages are there, they don't appear 3 days later.
Oh, they certainly don't appear days later. But sometimes they do between ~1-30 minutes. This is a well-known issue, you can find many topic about it. When you open the app, everything comes in all at onec.
It is sometimes annoying to me. I cycle a lot and sometimes my wife or somebody else sends a message when I'm on the go (like picking up some extra groceries) and then I miss it.
There is a longer discussion with various people here:
All this "engineering" really is, is basically just reducing CPU use (trading it for doing things on HW accelerators/offloads if present) and lowering the voltage/frequency to what's needed and suspend/resume. There's no special sauce in there.
App can be easily stopped in linux via SIGSTOP/SIGCONT. It will consume 0 power then. :)
Even original Pinephone has all what's needed for efficient use of energy for smartphone use cases.
And if you stop thinking of "apps" as processes and design architecture differently, you can have millisecond scale reactions to all user input on the entire phone even on original pinephone. Apps opening in a blink of an eye right after boot, etc. :)
Linux phones trying to reproduce Android architecture are kinda pointless. What would be the point, when you have the freedom to implement any other architecture, actually suited for the user centered model, where you don't have to ballance the needs of untrusted app providers.
Linux on phones have been around since the late 00s (e.g. through Nokia's efforts). Why would this suddenly change? Heck, even after decades, the battery life of most laptops running Linux is still much worse than Windows, let alone macOS.
I have had several generations of ThinkPads and to this day, battery life is typically ~50-60% of that of Windows, even with all battery optimizations applied. And Windows is terrible compared to Mac or Android/iOS phones.
And I say this as a long-time Linux user (used Linux in some form since 1994). It's just a very hard nut to crack if you miss a certain amount of vertical of integration and coordination across the ecosystem.
We are _not allowed_ to make it good. Without hardware documentation, you're looking at decades of reverse engineering effort just to get somewhere half as far as an engineer with hardware documentation can get in a weekend.
Look at Asahi. Almost a decade in and we can use the GPU at like 30% of its ability on 6 year old hardware.
That a project with major interest. No one cares about spending a decade reverse engineering the hardware on a Google Pixel or Samsung Galaxy.
If they gave us proper full hardware documentation, we could create high quality alternatives. Again, we can't so you don't see it.
Competition is good. We should always advocate for things that enable competition.
> Without hardware documentation, you're looking at decades of reverse engineering effort just to get somewhere half as far as an engineer with hardware documentation can get in a weekend.
I'm not sure this is true anymore and it is becoming less true with each new LLM release.
> No one cares about spending a decade reverse engineering the hardware on a Google Pixel or Samsung Galaxy.
Actually, this might a cool idea - just get a few super cheap smartphones, connect them all to a PC, give LLM access and tell it "make linux gud like android pls" and just give it a weekend.
Even if you have the binary driver and you decompile it with the help of a LLM, it does not provide most of the information from the documentation.
You may see that the driver writes some hundreds of magic constants in some hardware registers, but you do not know what they mean. You may be able to do exactly what the binary driver, does, but you will not be able to improve it, e.g. to enable features that happen to be not enabled in that driver.
So a LLM can speed up the initial part of reverse engineering if you have the files with binary drivers, which may be difficult to extract from certain phones, but a lot of work remains to discover all that the hardware can do.
The first is that google is currently rugpulling via various means and _really_ playing those anticompetetiveness-cards. That wasn't the case previously. So there wasn't much motivation to care, because android was "open enough".
The second is that the world is getting less geopolitically stable. So the whole ecosystem lockdowns are not just a personal preference thing but might be actually vital.
The third is that LLMs are kinda good at these optimization loops if you hand them a framework in which they can sample good data.
I also had a fourth thought but it left my mind :(
Android is still open enough. Worst case, AOSP can be forked and it will still be leagues ahead of non-Android Linux phones. That also applies to the sovereignty point. I see especially GrapheneOS and /e/OS grow because of this in local communities.
LLM-driven optimization is a good point. However, Linux desktop communities tend to be quite aggressively anti-LLM. E.g. GrapheneOS has been heavily attacked by these people for only using an LLM for security auditing. But maybe these projects will fork into LLM-accepted forks who will then rapidly out-innovate.
If you look at ARM, SBC and MiniPC market, Linux can be very frugal when it comes to power management and RAM use. Just because a bog standard Ubuntu or Debian is not tuned towards it doesn't mean it can't.
It's a problem at the Wayland/Wayland protocols/XDG level.
There is simply not enough rich app activity information for the session manager to do smart management.
Compare it to what iOS and Android apps report about themseleves and the conditions they are forced to run in (such as being arbitrarily killed and restarted).
Obviously the Linux kernel is perfectly able to sit in a stack like this (see: Android), it's the XDG standards which are not well suited for this.
I don't want to add yet another standard because the best part of the standards is there is too much to choose from.
It's a matter of signaling, though, and if we improve the signaling, we can build upon it.
Again, it's not a simple task (I dug into GNOME's compositor for two weeks just to find a note saying "Errm, we didn't implement this to X11 specs and it does funny things on touchscreens. If somebody can do this all over, we'd be glad. KTHXBYE"), and we were developing something for touch screens, albeit huge ones.
It’s not only a matter of tuning. Everything in the stack needs to be developed to go idle and not do things in the background by themselves. The Linux desktop and all its apps are made for a model where apps can continually get CPU time.
I know, but that's a set of libraries. Nothing which can't be done, because the foundation is there. In most basic terms, you need to be able to freeze apps and be able to tell when they have nothing to do, so they can be scheduled with minimal time slices to run a single, lightweight function to check whether they need to do anything at all.
Of course it's more complicated than that, but it's not impossible, since the foundation is already there.
It's just closed source drivers stored in private Linux forks (or Apple's code dungeon).
There's nothing inherently special about their optimisations, but hardware is incredibly complex and without documentation, open source drivers cannot be written that are anywhere close to what engineers with hardware docs can build.
Asahi Linux is a great example. It's an unbelievable project but still far from first party Apple drivers.
Once the hardware can actually be used, competition in the OS space will follow.
They have no incentive to offer documentation and competition is bad - so they won't allow that. Regulators must step in here.
Before the talks of alternative platforms, there should be legislation in place for services to expose http endpoints for all services rendered. I.e., a legitimate user should be able to point their web browser at it--behind whatever authentication and bot-detection shenanigans they want--and avail the services. No apps, no crap, no bloat.
In other words, the 'app culture', and the attendant normalisation of data stealing, must end. This effectively takes "app-" and platform-dependency out of the picture. Services are no more burdened with supporting n number of platforms; nor do they have an incentive to push people to start using their apps. Services can still offer an app, and users still have a choice to use one. But, the baseline client should be a browser. And there shouldn't be any discrimination between mobile vs. desktop browsers, either.
the manufacturer of the gsm and cellular hardware do not what their products to be commodities that users can interchange easily. They want their commercial supplier contracts to be between negotiated cartels, which allows each producer to eat a certain horizontal slice of the pie.
Every player in this space currently has this incentive imho.
While everyone that was doing vertical integration in the last century, had the whole product to sell, the OEMs selling IBM PC clones were all alike, so they always had something to differentiate, being the shovelware that was offered alongside the PC, pre-installed, painted cases, whatever.
What a fantastic article. As someone who has contributed to Phosh and Nura (prev. postmarketOS), I was always sad that Linux phones didn't take off. This article describes very well how difficult the firmware/hardware side is, which as a software guy I hadn't quite understood.
The software side (Phosh, KDE, etc) is now improving fast (both IMO because the obscure frameworks they're written in are easier to contribute to with AI, but also just thanks to time and maturity).
And if the firmware/hardware side can graduate the treadmill of endless bring-up and instead work on performance and fun stuff, that would be fantastic. We need our Raspberry Pi moment. First the Librem and Pinephone were our hope, then the OnePlus 6, but they all stayed 80% usable. Currently it was the Fairphone, but now tbd which the savior device will be. Exciting!
I wonder whether Android/iOS will ever become a viable alternative to GNU/Linux phones. They failed to make me switch for nearly two decades now and only seem to be getting worse.
“Jolla has sold 15,000 units of its phone as of August 2026 just by taking pre-orders for production batches from its web site”
In comparison, Apple easily sells 15,000 phones each hour of the year.
So, the best hope for such a Linux phone would be to have something installable on hardware of a third party that normally ships Android. I don’t see that happen because such hardware gets locked down more and more to defend against cybercrime.
I don't think it is fair comparing Jolla agains half of the current Smartphone monopolists.
Also you need to build an ecosystem so that users and developers can get involved & open hardware fully supported by Sailfish OS is a good start.
Also a lot of mainstream mobile hardware is locked down on purpose to effectively enforce planned obsolescence, which makes it harder to port a sane OS on it.
If i will not able to get in control of the device, at least as much as macos level, and still able to make contactless payments, approve online payements, breaking the duopoly will not matter much for me.
Maybe i should aim for a second smallest possible android phone just for banking to set my mobile computing free. (İ was already tried using unihertz jelly star as my daily driver for a while)
Sailfish OS is, IMO, good enough for daily use. I do use their (Android) App Support for a few apps out of convenience because, for example, I just like Symfonium music and audiobook player. However, if I would approach it more strictly, I could comfortably live without Android on the device at all. Do take that with a grain of salt, though - I don't use mobile banking apps and NFC payment, for example.
edit: The hardware supply chain is an issue, though. It's all Android hardware under the hood because that's the only thing you can buy. So there are crutches necessary to translate between Android drivers with their hardware abstraction layer and "proper" Linux. Libhybris does that in case of Sailfish OS / Jolla (the company behind the OS) and it works well but I wouldn't call it elegant, necessarily.
Uhmmm...no. Developing an operating system like Android requires hundreds if not thousands of engineers and hundreds of millions of dollars a year. I don't see a couple of smelly haggards in a basement attaining the same level of quality and depth anytime soon.
I mean, it took Linux more than 30 years to come somewhat close to the desktop experience Windows has been given us.
Any mobile operating system would need, in addition, something extra to compete with iOS and Android. Like a real-time microkernel operating system to enhance security.
I've already tried linux mobile oses on a few devices but they all have issues with calls and sms working. I have no idea why devs don't focus on the basics of a phone working as a phone and instead j*k off over the ui (which is still slow and buggy) or other apps. Because why would I need a fitness app, a step counter, some fancy notification animations etc if the phone doesn't work AS a phone?
Inevitable given that a lot of dev entrepreneurs are moving from high level CRUD to low level software, CAD and hardware now with AI. But it might move beyond Linux once AIs come up with their own programming languages.
No, Linux phones won't become a viable alternative to Android or iOS phones.
The average phone user couldn't give a damn about the underlying OS - they buy on price and features - not the "hackability", or whatever drives the good readers of Hacker news to buy phones.
I have been using Sailfish OS from Jolla since 2013 on my main phone. They are even selling a new phone with Sailfish OS preinstalled now: https://commerce.jolla.com/
I have a hot take on this: I don't think iOS and Android have long for this world. In five years, phones will just be an AI device. Local compute when possible, cloud compute when required. The OS will be whatever the AI dynamically creates for the user's tastes and requirements. People won't buy apps anymore. They'll create them on the fly as needed. In rare cases where an app purchase happens (such as a YouTube subscription), the AI will facilitate the purchase with Google's AI.
This makes me tremendously excited someday to take a hammer to my current phone until it is reduced to fine dust, replace it with a perfectly dumb landline, and never give the matter a second thought.
No, and the reason has nothing to do with technology. Consumers can buy a phone running Android or iOS in retail stores. They can buy a desktop running Windows or macOS in retail stores. They cannot buy a phone or desktop running Linux (by default) in retail stores. That's why we have a duopolies on mobile and desktop.
If it's not easy for consumers to find something, most consumers won't find it. If a product is not available in retail stores, it's not a mass market product. If a buyer has to ignore the default operating system and instead download and install a different operating system on the device, they mostly won't.
I wish. sadly, no. even the year of the linux desktop may very well never come to pass. I've always felt there's always been a fundamental disconnect between what linux users/devs THINK general audiences want, and what they ACTUALLY want. I applaud them for all their hard effort, they've really come a long way, and they never even got a dime for it (W foss, L microslop), but man the ux has always been a nightmare lol.
I absolutely love my laptop running mint, its running better than it ever did with windows, but I could never recommend something even this 'simple' to someone who isn't a hobbyist, or has a lot of spare time to configure and maintain it, or cares about their privacy, etc. I understand also there's many other factors at play here that are completely out of the hands of the dev/community, like the fact its almost never natively supported by just about every app, and I dont mean to put that on them either. they're just more factors holding it back from mainstream adoption.
so if that's been the case on desktop, smartphones are just so far out of the picture. i dont see how the year of the linux smartphone could ever come before the year of the linux desktop.
I really hope I'm wrong. thanks for reading my meh-ly informed 2¢.
> I absolutely love my laptop running mint, its running better than it ever did with windows, but I could never recommend something even this 'simple' to someone who isn't a hobbyist, or has a lot of spare time to configure and maintain it, or cares about their privacy, etc.
My non-technical relatives run Debian just fine. I don't understand what you are talking about. It has unattendend upgrades and doesn't have to be configured or tinkered with after install.
Funny how this entire comment section is full of people who have never used anything but ios or android. Not sure if it's just all bots, or if even HN is just full of NPCs nowadays.
Glad to see the fanboys are finally agreeing on something though! >_<
I've just written another post somewhere in this thread about discovering a nice feature in KDE Plasma, and remembered my recent search for a way to output HDMI from my old iPhone without ridiculous compression, and all this Linux phone talk stated to make me have crazy thoughts about how much I want Plasma Mobile. I was all set to write "just give me Plasma Mobile on something the size of an iPhone 13 Mini, and I don't care how much doesn't work". I used a 1st Gen iPhone SE, years past where it was sensible. I can suffer.
I started to list my few, basic must-haves - aware that everyone has a different list - but my own short list got embarrassingly long, very quickly. I thought I had simple requirements!
Obvious basics which surely aren't too much to ask: email, calendar, reminder and note syncing, password manager with TOTP generator, instant messaging (willingly to compromise and have only Signal or WhatsApp), route navigation, basic browsing, half-decent camera, ...
Phone calls - so I probably need 4G and 5G...
Oh - plus uncountable other small apps or utilities that hardly seem worth mentioning: calculator, file browser, compass, voice memos, ...
And then I thought about the ever-growing list of big, ugly Apps that I could live without, but really do make my life easier. Banking apps (sigh - I hate how many of these virtually require an app), the app to unlock my apartment block door, Outlook, Teams, ...
And then I started having sensible, disappointing thoughts. Maybe I'd rather just keep the iPhone 13 Mini. I just got a new battery (and bonus screen) installed by Apple on the weekend...
But seriously, when that starts to be unusable... if I have to carry something obnoxiously large, it better run mainstream Linux and turn into a desktop when I plug a USB-C dock into it!
Degoogle Android, Actually quite easy to bring back google service. I'm using the Chinese-version vivo x200p, the most troublesome is having to put app in enery-intense mode if you want them to run in background, or else the OS will kill them if they are unused for a while.
Huawei's HarmonyOS is quite good. As for other brands like OPPO and Xiaomi, I've used them before too. You can use Google Play and a whole range of Google apps, but the localization adaptation is much better.
Only the userland is some java based abomination... well was a long time ago, maybe after all those years, the android userland has a minimal set of simple binary interfaces and simple file formats, which I could even code reasonably code directly in assembly (this is the benchmark).
Something is wispering to my hears: "nooo! there is no such things as minimal system interfaces and file formats on android linux". Wrong?
Imo they already are.. They're actual non-hobbled computers you can do what you want with. Think of all the things you can do on Linux.. Now you can do that on your pocket sized computer.
Sure all the conventional mobile ecosystem stuff wont work. But that's entirely a giant ball of cancer anyway. Only a fool would want to deal with that filth.
I still have a drawer full of OpenMoko. A couple Creative Labs Zii Eggs. Some OpenPandora, and even a hacked up FairPhone, donated to my parts bin, non-working.
I sure wish the Zii Egg had made it out of prototype stages. It showed the most promise - a bare-metal Linux OS, multiple cores, very, very easy to write apps for it - just plain C/C++ really.
Linux phones never happened because the distro's constructed for them were overly complicated, unnecessarily encumbered with 'smart features', and just generally (imho), sabotaged by the cult of collective development. Its the sort of project that requires a BDFL pushing things forward - none of the failed Linux phones ever had that.
These days, I'd rather see someone produce an ESP32 phone with LoRA and maybe SDR, and leave it at that.
But, there is another issue. The modems. It is always the modems. Until someone courageously open sources the modem chip and its firmware, there is no hope.
that't not challenger to Visa/MC at all, it doesn't issue any cards, it is just different name for existing instant wire transfers which you can do also through QR code through whatever banking app you use, nothing to do with some "European Network for Payments (ENP)"
that's like saying I have new solution to wheel, which will be called European circle, it will be the same wheel we already have, but under the new fancy EU name!
Now with people decompiling and recompiling apps for different platforms and how fast coding has gotten with AI, spinning up a Linux phone platform is much more achievable now. That wasn't true a year ago.
I am not sure but the less power Google has, the better. I am getting tired of those Trump milking machinery leeching off of others - we already see how Trump treats Ukrainians. The ultimate agent Krasnov, just as Yuri predicted in the 1980s already: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5It1zarINv0
There are already 100 million HarmonyOS devices in China, so you could say it's now a three-way rivalry. The apps I use every day basically all have native HarmonyOS versions, including even foreign apps like Tesla and Sam's Club.
I've actually been using HarmonyOS for half a year now, and it feels pretty good — the notifications and system smoothness are on par with iOS. The reason I don't use an iPhone is that I need NFC access control, which iOS doesn't support.
Huawei has invested a large amount of manpower to station people in major companies to help develop HarmonyOS. I think they have already broken the vicious cycle of "no users -> no apps -> even fewer users."
Moreover, in the current AI era, it has become easier for Chinese developers to port software to HarmonyOS. For example, Moonlight, the streaming software I often use, has several natively customized and optimized versions available in the HarmonyOS app store.
OP is asking about Linux phones. HarmonyOS doesn't even run Linux kernel at all.
HarmonyOS 5.x+ both discards the common Unix-like Linux kernel and replaces the previous multiple-kernel, kernel agnostic system from OpenHarmony with its own bespoke HarmonyOS microkernel as a single framework.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HarmonyOS#:~:text=HarmonyOS%20...
It’s interesting to see how they got there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HarmonyOS:
“From 2019 to 2024, versions 1 to 4.3 (4.5 TV) of the operating system were built by integrating the Android Open Source Project (AOSP) with OpenHarmony, allowing it to support both HarmonyOS and Android apps. The current iteration of HarmonyOS became known as HarmonyOS NEXT (later it was renamed HarmonyOS 5 in launched of Pura X). HarmonyOS NEXT was announced on August 4, 2023, and officially launched on October 22, 2024. It also replaced the OpenHarmony multi-kernel system with its own HongMeng Kernel at its core and removed all Android code. Since version 5, HarmonyOS only supports apps in its native "App" format.
HarmonyOS 5.x+ both discards the common Unix-like Linux kernel and replaces the previous multiple-kernel, kernel agnostic system from OpenHarmony with its own bespoke HarmonyOS microkernel as a single framework.”
⇒ this shows it’s possible to create a new stack. It’s not Linux, though, and I think a large reason for this succeeding is that it started in the Chinese market after the US sanctioned Huawei.
> this shows it’s possible to create a new stack. It’s not Linux, though, and I think a large reason for this succeeding is that it started in the Chinese market after the US sanctioned Huawei.
Even so, I think it's helpful in that it weakens the duopoly. If app builders are getting used to building apps for other platforms than Android/iOS, it hopefully also becomes easier for others to gain some foothold.
Especially given the heavy commissions and other developer-hostile behaviour of these two. They've been essentially treating devs like shit and IMO a reckoning has been coming for a while now. Of course, you do have to meet the users where they are, at least up to a point.
...by being even less open than Android. It's not an improvement
And it also has new programming languages ArkTS (Typescript inspired) and now in the process of having Canjie, as their own "Swift".
The Chinese government literally pushed companies to develop app for HarmonyOS [0]. Have fun finding out what happens if you don't.
I can't tell you whether this is a good idea, but I am sure this will never happen outside China, which is supposedly what the question is about.
Also bear in mind that Huawei is likely worth more than a trillion dollars. There aren't many companies at that scale.
[0] https://www.sz.gov.cn/en_szgov/news/latest/content/post_1117...
> The Chinese government literally pushed companies to develop app for HarmonyOS [0].
Like the U.S. government is not pushing and investing its own companies, providing incentives, funding etc. etc. It's what sovereign governments are supposed to do.
> Have fun finding out what happens if you don't.
What is that even supposed to mean? You're going to a camp if you don't have a HarmonyOS app? That is just something that propagandists append to every post about China as if it means something. Get better propaganda, this is old and tired. I can stay random shit like the US is about to livestream an execution by a firing squad too, see?
> Like the U.S. government is not pushing and investing its own companies, providing incentives, funding etc. etc. It's what sovereign governments are supposed to do.
What's your point? My comment is not in contradiction to that.
> That is just something that propagandists append
You can do name calling all day long but that's not meaningful and will get you banned.
I strongly suggest that you reply with content with more substance in it, or just not reply at all.
I bought a Huawei phone because of the hardware. I'm using the Pura X foldable phone.
The 16:10 screen makes it very convenient for watching videos and reading e-books.
The chip is the Kirin 9020. Although it's only equivalent to Android flagship chips from a few years ago, it doesn't feel laggy in daily use.
How well do Google Maps and WhatsApp work on the latest versions of HarmonyOS?
I assume it requires some mind of Android compatibility layer that won't pass Play Integrity checks..
Does Huawei provide an Android virtual machine with Google frameworks built in? When I was traveling in Japan, I used Google Maps, and for daily use, Chrome and 1Password all worked fine.
In my daily use, only three apps run in the virtual machine: 1Password, Steam, and Chrome. They all run normally, but they're a bit laggy.
Huawei has a Google Mobile Services (GMS) equivalent called HMS, which acts as a compatibility layer and prevents Apps from throwing errors when running on their Android APK-support layer.
However, as I understood, in China HarmonyOS next has no Anroid-emulation layer (which is probably a wise decision if you want to drive domestic app-developers to support your platform...)
More importantly, Huawei products eclipsed Apple in design in 2026
While I prefer Apple's design language partly because it's rooted from Sony and I love how Sony does this since eternity, I strongly support having multiple top-notch designers and builders from different countries.
This is what genuine competition is and drives things forward.
Could you provide some examples? I’m genuinely curious.
watch and airpods, personal experience
lmao weak troll attempt. From the rear, the Huawei Mate 90 Pro Max looks like a a lock on a hotel room door. Google it and see what I mean
I have a Mate 80 RS Ultimate Design and I think it looks beautiful in person, but as you know, Chinese and Western design preferences are very different, just look at their EV's (and how western brands are copying their designs)
Is looks that important to you?
I just looked it and while it looks different, that's not bad. As long as it works, I'm fine with what I have.
Design was important enough to you to post your own comment talking about it and your own preferences, and how important it is to competition, so why are you questioning it's importance to someone else?
Because I see design as a proxy to build quality and ergonomics. I'm not shopping for looks while getting my electronic devices, I'm shopping for quality and longevity of the thing in question.
If it's built well, dependable, ergonomic and delivers on the promise it's written on the box, I'm perfectly happy with what I got.
Yes, I have my tastes, like everybody else, but I don't satisfy my taste first and try to fill the specs to that taste. On the contrary, I start with the features and quality level I want, and go from there.
Did you read the comment I was replying to? The commenter claimed Huawei had the lead in design. I begged to differ. I'd accept the design of the 90 Pro Max on a $300 phone, but a $2,000 phone? lol
That's your personal opinion on a piece of hardware. If that's so important for you, you can look to other alternatives.
...and in my comment, I kindly disagreed with you. I have used many things with great enjoyment which were called ugly by many people.
It's OK and natural to have different opinions and priorities, and hardware design is not a first priority as long as it's uncomfortable on my checklist.
As a side note, apparently, you can add an extra camera module with a 1" sensor to that "lock" you seem to dislike. Considering the best camera is the one you have, having an additional camera with better sensor for people who are inclined to dabble into photography is a great thing.
...and I'm contemplating on how can I take my mirrorless with me during flights in a compact way even if I have an iPhone.
I don't know what you mean, looks more like camera lens from front
sounds like heresy up in here california echo chamber
There's also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaiOS that developed from FirefoxOS and powers something like 100 million feature phones in the developing world.
Have they support copy paste between apps? Since WhatsApp abandoned the platform I figured it is in life support. Almost no one use SMS in developing worlds, it's WhatsApp all the way.
HarmonyOS (especially meaning Huawei phones) is pretty much dead outside China, that's like saying WeChat is relevant messaging app outside China
if you can't run all your favorite bank apps in your phone any phone is dead nowadays, no matter whether it is Linux or HarmonyOS
and seems EU is fine with keeping Apple/Google duopoly in app verification, so although you can use European bank and pay with QR codes without MC/Visa, you still need US company verifying your phone so you can use European bank app, sad state of current things
> if you can't run all your favorite bank apps in your phone any phone is dead nowadays
I guess I've been running dead phones for ::checks notes:: a quarter century now? I actually don't even know if my primary banking institution (a regional credit union) has an app to begin with. It's never occurred to me to need it.
My phone can't run any of my bank's apps, is it dead too?
I appreciate your intended point was probably more specific, perhaps 'will not be a mass market success in the west', but there is a great diversity of people in the world and many of them have different requirements of a phone
for 99.5% potential buyers yes, it is, if it can't run bank apps (or other apps requiring GMS), personally I don't use banking apps on phone but I realize I am extreme negligible minority, which is why I said "pretty much dead", that "pretty much" covers that <0.5% users
we're quickly getting into "we're sorry, you can't access the site unless you verify with android/iphone" so yes, that would be essentially dead
wechat is a pretty good app
gojek too
singapore also has some pretty great ideas
go travel a bit, there's an entire world out there that isn't waiting around
when i go to the mall here, i counted 6 korean copycat shops lol
asia is living a completely different lifestyle than us, and its popular even with us, especially with women, and its actually good, and we're still here saying asian shit is irrelevant
The reality is that The Western Civilization, or however you frame and name your own personal lifestyle, is not as huge and dominant as it might seem to you. Every countries have own sets of apps and webs. __1984 is a work of fiction__; there is no united Oceania, Eurasia or Eastasia in real life.
> wechat is a pretty good app
And millions of Chinese bash it everyday. Shit storage efficiency, stagnated UX experience, very closed ecosystem and external link blocking, I could go on.
always one of the fattest apps on my phone
hey apple, when are we getting expanded memory, maybe better battery? oh we're still stuck under 4000mAh, cool cool cool
that's how you know it's good. bad apps have rather smaller daily user-bashing numbers
Not if it is shoveled down to your throat.
I've lived in various Asian countries for the last 10 years, but I've never seen Wechat used except for communication and payments with people from mainland China.
Same with Gojek. They tried launching in other countries, but it never caught on outside of Indonesia, where yes it's huge and awesome.
Grab, on the other hand, has been very successful internationally.
> go travel a bit, there's an entire world out there that isn't waiting around
> asia is living a completely different lifestyle than us, and its popular even with us, especially with women, and its actually good, and we're still here saying asian shit is irrelevant
I lived in China 5+ years and spent plenty of time in other Asian countries travelling, so how to say it politely - stop talking about "us" and preaching me about lifestyle in Asia if you are completely clueless.
WeChat is shit app pushed down the Chinese throats (I remember when QQ was still the king), because it doesn't have competition in China and you can't really exist in China without it, closed sourced with no E2E encryption for starters, there is reason why pretty much nobody outside China/Chinese community uses this actively spying app.
So yes, if by Asian shit, you mean HarmonyOS and WeChat, then yes, Asian shit is irrelevant, because pretty much nobody outside Asia uses it for good reasons (HarmonyOS because it is unusable if you wanna use normal banking apps and most of the other apps relying on GMS besides those very very few ported apps or using some virtual machine workarounds, personally I don't need banking apps and used smartphones without gapps for the last 10 years, but I am realist realizing I may be among like <0.5% Android users in Europe, completely irelevant negligible number).
Isn't HarmoniousOS just a blatant Android OS clone, with serial numbers and licenses filed off? I remember ArsTechnica reported on that waaaay back when it was released.
HarmonyOS NEXT released 2024 is a fully original kernel, the first version was off label android
Except that HarmonyOS is not Linux based or on Android [0]
In fact, it is a competitor against both iOS, Android and Linux-based devices.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HarmonyOS
It would have to be somewhat more global than only in China though. After all Google's spyphones also operates globally, more or less, even if Google is a ruthless US tool for abuse of other markets. IMO we need to get rid of all companies though. That's not realistic, but it really should happen. I just do not trust any of these private entities anymore; verifiable open source and open hardware at all times should become the new standard. Is anyone really using Win11? Ever since the recall-spy feature I knew I could not commit to it; whether I can disable it or not is not a useful distinction since there is no more trust in that private blob, now supported via AI slop.
No, they won't become a viable alternative:
- Worse compatibility with the millions of Android apps already out there.
- Hardware vendors (outside Apple) all target Android.
- The usability of Android/iOS is far better than non-Android Linux phones.
- The security of non-Android Linux phones is in a bad state (e.g. lacking proper app sandboxing). Heck, even the Android emulation layers that some of these phones have, throw the strong Android sandbox model out of the window.
The answer is very obvious and it is AOSP. Even though Google is trying to close AOSP more (e.g. by not pushing source continuously to the AOSP Git repos and keeping QPR1/3 for themselves), it is still an open source system. Play Services can either be run sandboxed or emulated with microG. AOSP allows alternative systems to hit the ground running, you get great app compatibility, a tested security model, great usability, and support from hardware vendors, including vendors that are alternative friendly (used to be Pixel, now Motorola, Fairphone, etc.). If ever needed, AOSP could be forked and it would still be leagues ahead of non-Android Linux phones.
All the downsides that apply to AOSP-based systems (like things getting blocked by Play Integrity, unlockable bootloaders) also apply to non-Android Linux systems.
The lack of polish is a function of the inability to use the hardware. The hardware is tightly gatekept so competition _cannot_ exist. Regulators are the only ones who can force vendors to distribute documentation for and unlock their hardware.
Once we can actually target the hardware, open source alternatives will be much better than first party options.
You can already see the potential in the open source world.
Linux has Waydroid so Android apps can be run on Linux at full speed without emulation. That means, if you had a Linux phone, you have the entire Android library - the only thing lacking is the launcher. How hard is a launcher to program? It's just Steam's big picture mode.
Other examples of the nice things we can't have; FEX lets you run Steam games on phone hardware. Open source drivers can unlock displayport over USBC. Instantly your phone becomes a thin client / laptop replacement that can play PC games (poorly, but 1080p games are possible).
We are _not allowed_ to do these things. I love OS development and, if I was allowed, I'd make iOS look like janky trash.
So, where are the super-polished Linux systems for the Fairphone? I know they use proprietary firmware blobs and that the hardware support is Android-oriented. But they publish device trees, driver sources, and firmware. Most AOSP-based projects support Fairphone, as well as PostmarketOS and ubports.
The problem is not only hardware support, the problem is also that the stack on top of it is very immature compared to AOSP and not something you could give to a daily phone user.
It’s funny that you mention Waydroid. It throws most of Android’s strong security model out of the window.
> So, where are the super-polished Linux systems for the Fairphone?
It still has tiny market reach. Very few people are going to invest the time needed to build a quality user experience for like 1000 users.
Just imagine what would happen if Linux could be installed on the iPhone. There would be SteamOS distributions within an hour of the announcement.
> It’s funny that you mention Waydroid. It throws most of Android’s strong security model out of the window.
Haha yea, it's more an example of capabilities that could be rolled into highly polished user experiences. Again, if Linux could be installed on the iPhone - I'm certain Waydroid maintainers would shut the project down from PRs.
~~* competition *~~
> It still has tiny market reach. Very few people are going to invest the time needed to build a quality user experience for like 1000 users.
That doesn't make sense. Whenever someone wants to build something, they start with 0 users. They don't say "huh, I have 0 users, I'm not going to build a good product".
People who build things recognize that they won't get more users if they don't make their product better. If you have 1,000 users and you want 1,000,000 users, you work more, not less.
It still has tiny market reach.
You are moving the goalposts, you said:
The lack of polish is a function of the inability to use the hardware. The hardware is tightly gatekept so competition _cannot_ exist. [...] Once we can actually target the hardware, open source alternatives will be much better than first party options.
So, it's not the hardware gatekeeping that is the issue, it's that nobody is polishing the experience for hardware that already exists and qualifies. The hardware can also be purchased very easily in some regions (e.g. Europe). I can literally hop on a bike right now and pick up a Fairphone in ten minutes. I know that it's different in e.g. the US, but Murena has been selling them in the US for years now.
I think you may be glossing over a bit how annoying / messy / complicated it can be to work with the binary blobs and their quirks, especially when dealing with complex things like camera(s) and the image processing stack. Doubly so for community developers who may have limited or no access to documentation and resources that the device manufacturers get from the more low-level hardware vendors.
If Fairphone wanted, I'm relatively sure that they could form a cooperation with Jolla, Librem, KDE or other entities in the space and get Plasma Mobile, Sailfish or whatever working on their phones and/or design the next-gen Fairphone with hardware that has as few quirks as possible and is as "easy" to get to work with Linux as possible. I'm also relatively sure that so far, that would not have made economic sense for them. However, there seems to be a bit of a surge in people wanting alternatives. The recent Jolla phone has way more orders and pre-orders than were anticipated, for example. And SailfishOS is certainly "polished" enough that the circle of people who can use it well (or at least live with it) has expanded beyond the developer / hacker / activist crowd.
who exactly owns a fairphone?
Now, if we had support for say, a pixel, that would probably change things. Incidentally, there seems to be initial support for the tensor G5 (pixel 10 onwards)
How many years did it take to make a well-polished DE on desktop Linux? How large was the community doing that and how many devices did they have access to?
The difference is that there is already a great open source smartphone OS that works today, it’s AOSP.
The most effective path would be for the FLOSS ecosystem to pour their resources into making AOSP independent from Google. But instead people will just fork N half- or non-working solutions for reasons.
>OS that works today, it’s AOSP.
But you have no guarantee what happens tomorrow with it, depending on what Google feels like. You just have to eat whatever Google decides.
With Linux there's no such centralized control. So the time and effort will pay out later on down the road. Let Google have its AOSP.
This comes up every time, I just don't understand the argument. You can fork AOSP when that happens. It will still be far less work than bootstrapping a viable open source alternative from scratch. Also maintaining a forked AOSP would be less work than getting the Linux desktop stack on the same level as AOSP.
Given that Android apps target old API levels, it would also stay compatible for years and nothing would hold you from implementing APIs from the docs.
To be honest, I don't think AOSP will fully close up, since Google probably fears the regulatory pressure and the fallout from vendors. The larger risk is Play Integrity, but that applies equally to other Linux systems if you want to tap into the large Android app ecosystem. But the solution for that is not technical, the EU and other regulatory bodies should make forbid it in its current form due to anti-competitiveness.
> This comes up every time, I just don't understand the argument. You can fork AOSP when that happens
Hacking on the Linux stack is several orders of magnitude more practical than AOSP though. AOSP's build system is massively unwieldy for individual contributors to work on. You can't easily work on any of the system components without dedicating >100 GiB of storage for a build, for example. Everything is scattered across hundreds of repositories tied together with a bespoke repository management tool.
This all works for a company equipped with entire build infrastructure teams, not for a grassroots project trying to keep up maintenance with (at best) limited funding. It's why Nura (fka postmarketOS) is a thing whereas the various AOSP forks barely ever modify the core experience.
About 5 years, Mandrake and SuSE with KDE around 1996 were already quite good.
Since then the problem has always been the same, rebooting the DE experience for the sake of it, desktop environment wars, rebooting the development stack from GNOME and KDE, and the problem that despite all OEMs have Linux running on their data centers, the community has to reverse engineer the hardware from the same OEMs.
Yeah, I think people are underestimating how good and competitive the Linux desktop was in the past. Around ~2000 there was a lot of excitement around the Linux desktop, the Linux desktop was pretty mature, especially compared to the tire fire that Windows 9x was at the time (that changed when the NT branch moved to the consumer with XP). There were very user-friendly installers like Caldera OpenLinux (best feature was that you could play Tetris during the install) and Corel Linux. Also a lot of large vendors were making Linux desktop apps, e.g. Corel Wordperfect and Borland Kylix (which was Delphi for Linux). Heck, even Microsoft Office ran almost perfectly with CrossOver.
But yeah, then there was the constant forking, preferring rebooting development over iterative improvement (e.g. GNOME 2 -> 3 was really a hard cut for a lot of people, resulting in forks that exist till this day), hostility towards closed-source applications (you can hate them as much as you want, but people are not abandoning Photoshop/Illustrator for GIMP/Inkscape on a whim), etc.
Hopefully something changes with all the government-driven sovereignty desktops that are popping up, the resulting influx of money, and KDE EV et al. becoming very mature organizations.
By such measure, GNU/Linux phones are already quite good. I use Librem 5 with Phosh as a daily driver, and it is really just fine. Except the battery life, app compatibility and smoothness of the UI.
"It's fine, except for all the stuff that matters."
These are basically the same problems that Linux desktop had around 2000, aren't they? People still used it and it was fine.
What's the viability of regulators requiring such documentation out of vendors? Feel free to extend the scope out to up to 5 years if it does not look viable right now.
Introducing initiatives that encourage competition is bad for business so I empathise with megacorporations for not doing it without regulation. The annoying part is they are also the largest lobby groups, so it's unlikely the US will be the leader of change here.
If I would draft policy that could make it I'd suggest;
- Scoped to companies above a "number of units sold globally" threshold.
- Documentation must be supplied 3, maybe 5 years after hardware release (similar to "generic drugs").
This means small hardware startups are not burdened by the overhead in creating docs, and megacorps retain the ability to extract profit during the period of maximum profitability for the product. The eventual expiry would encourage companies to innovate (I think malicious compliance is unlikely).
With the recent push to decouple dependance on US technology companies, I see this as possible (though still unlikely) in the EU, perhaps Canada.
One could do just like everyone else and buy the specs from OEMs, instead of trying to reverse engineer.
Yes it won't be pure religious FOSS with 100% open, so what.
Also this is the future for laptops as well, for those that keep repeating the mantra of ARM/RISC-V replacing x86/x64 architectures.
Do you get that on the Apple App Store?
No, and why should I?
Apple doesn't sell Linux powered devices, nor do I want that from them.
> nor do I want that from them.
This perspective I can't wrap my head around. Like I get that you wouldn't use it, and that's fine - but if Linux was available and we made it incredible, that would push Apple (and Google) to do better. So you'd get a better MacOS / iOS by proxy.
Like, don't we want competition? What motivates people to desire an unchallenged status quo?
Those that want to sell Linux powered phones should make their own stores, and folks like yourself should support them, when they do open such stores.
I have a genuine, but maybe stupid/trivial sounding question. Does anyone successfully run cloud instances of Waydroid so that their physical phone is a dumb client?
I've been thinking about it for a long time, but it seems like such a privacy risk even when self-hosted. The massive upside is that the phone is just a VM. The idea makes the entire phone debate irrelevant since you can access your "phone" from any other computer that has internet access. If the connection is lost, the local device can always sync later or at least provide basic call/text functionality.
> The lack of polish is a function of the inability to use the hardware
Must be why Desktop Linux has great usability right? Oh wait
Haha, shots fired.
It's better than Windows 11 at least - though we probably can't credit that to improvements to the Linux DE
I am often finding things I prefer about one of the OSs (or Desktop Environments in the case of Linux) that the others don't have. I can usually see how people prefer any particular one over the other.
The usual suspects are the keyboard support in Windows (enabling the extended keyboard navigation in MacOS made some apps act very strangely), and most of the look and feel of MacOS. There have even been things I really liked in ChromeOS.
Obviously there are many nice touches in the big Linux DEs, and I would rather be in KDE Plasma than anywhere else. Because of this, I'm generally not surprised when I encounter something that is done better than Windows or MacOS.
However...!
Yesterday I was editing filenames in the file browser, and accidentally navigated down to the next file in the folder - still in filename editing mode! It was a feature I didn't even know I wanted. Suddenly, I could edit a whole list of files, just as if it were rows in a text file. Now it's Monday, and I'm back in Windows. I am unlikely to need to use that feature, but still wish I didn't know what I was missing.
> Yesterday I was editing filenames in the file browser, and accidentally navigated down to the next file in the folder - still in filename editing mode! It was a feature I didn't even know I wanted. Suddenly, I could edit a whole list of files, just as if it were rows in a text file. Now it's Monday, and I'm back in Windows. I am unlikely to need to use that feature, but still wish I didn't know what I was missing.
In case you do ever need it - you can do this in Windows with the tab key.
That is quite nice! I don't think I ever knew that. It doesn't feel quite as nice as using the down arrow in a list/details view, but it's plenty good enough.
Anyone have the equivalent for MacOS? :) I don't have any MacOS devices handy.
it really does though
This tells me you haven't tried it in the past 20 years
> Play Services can either be run sandboxed or emulated with microG.
Play Services is absolutely not needed for a usable Android experience. I am running GrapheneOS without any Google crap and you could not pay me to do so.
Many bank apps, and apps to interact with official state services, usually depend on Play Services. Sometimes it is all banks in one's country, so no, one can't just "switch to another bank" as US Americans on HN often assume.
Can't speak for all countries ofc, but the happy path isn't just the US. I've heard positive reports in Europe where banking apps work without Play services more often than not, and if it doesn't some banks will actually change implemented policy once a customer complains.
I was saying this just to be ahead of all the comments that usually come up with "yeah, but Google has increasingly put new APIs in Play Services, so AOSP is worthless".
It works for you, but I doubt your experience and needs are typical of a normal smartphone user.
I also run LineageOS with no Play Services (and have for years), but it is missing some pretty noteworthy stuff: Google Maps, Google Pay, etc.
> Google Maps, Google Pay
That's not the Android experience, that's the Google experience.
I used to do this, but an increasing number of apps fail to work without play services. Luckily Google still lets you create accounts on android phones, so you can create a fresh account with a random name for every phone, and take care you don't give it access to something identifiable.
> and take care you don't give it access to something identifiable.
Like IP address and location?
I know it is entirely possible for Google to uniquely identify me for each account, but I choose to believe they don't go out of their way to use EVERY possible information about you to track you and only use things that you "accept" via their EULAs, like syncing contacts or logging in to the same service with both accounts, etc.
> Worse compatibility with the millions of Android apps already out there.
Most of the apps on Android and iOS aren't necessarily useful.
Actually, with the recent advances in LLMs - they could. If people start to reverse their phones and upstream to Linux, we would not need the hardware vendors to support their own hardware even.
Do any Linux phones or even GrapheneOS phones have a secure enclave/TEE?
GrapheneOS requires it.
> StrongBox keystore provided by secure element
https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices
Librem 5 has a smart card reader.
>The answer is very obvious and it is AOSP
I disagree. Working on AOSP with Google having so much control of it is just a waste of time. You have no guarantees what you are working for, in the future.
I'd go full Linux, the effort is worth it and will pay out in the future. Google has the AOSP project by the balls and it's a very high risk investing anything into it, as a developer.
With today's LLM tech might as well do something nice with Linux.
So fork AOSP today. You actually have a working stack, working systems (Lineage, GrapheneOS, /e/OS), and it's far less work than bringing mobile Linux up to the level of AOSP.
But no, let's reinvent the wheel and start the complete ecosystem from scratch. Of course, looking at the history of Linux, this is not surprising at all. Even something immature as mobile Linux already has multiple projects + stacks (Sailfish, ubports, Plasma Mobile, PureOS, etc.) trying to achieve the same. I say this as a long time Linux user (since 1994), the Linux desktop community manages to shoot itself in the foot over and over again.
I don't think you understand the reason people want mobile linux. I want to be able to run arbitrary binaries and get access to graphics primitives on my phone, AOSP does none of this. I honestly don't even get the point of AOSP, the way you don't for mobile linux.
I want to be able to run arbitrary binaries and get access to graphics primitives on my phone, AOSP does none of this.
People use a phone for their most private information, including banking credentials, credit card credentials, car keys, etc. The banks, etc. are never going to permit running their apps on devices that can run arbitrary binaries. Most are already blocking rooted Android devices and Android devices with an unlocked bootloader. The fact that this is still possible on desktops (though not everywhere anymore, e.g. my bank requires you to use a phone app for authentication) is for historical reasons.
Also, you are an extremely small niche. If you are sufficiently motivated, you can live like that (run Linux phones, work around banks, etc.), but this will never be mainstream and this was implied in the question of the post (Will Linux phones become a viable alternative to the Android/iOS duopoly?).
If there will be a viable alternative to the Android/iOS duopoly, it will look a lot like Android/iOS. The best chance is an AOSP-based system like GrapheneOS.
You can still run traditional Linux desktop apps in a VM on such phones.
>but this will never be mainstream and this was implied in the question of the post (Will Linux phones become a viable alternative to the Android/iOS duopoly?)
The post goes into detail about the reason for the current duopoly is the difficulty in procuring modern SOCs with linux support, nothing to do with how said phones will be used.
And I don't really care about being able to bank on my phone, I would gladly buy a cheap android device for it if they stop you from being able to bank on desktop devices, I just need linux on phones because of how much android sucks for daily use and how annoying it is to do anything on it. If we do get the ability to run android on modern hardware, it stops being necessary to have a separate desktop/laptop as well, I could just use a dock, or just a keyboard and mouse instead, especially since the Macbook Neo has shown current mobile hardware is more than enough for "casual" desktop use.
> The fact that this is still possible on desktops (though not everywhere anymore, e.g. my bank requires you to use a phone app for authentication) is for historical reasons.
And you think that this is fine? I will fight for my rights for one.
AOSP is effectively just a linux distro and can be forked just like desktop linux distros
Apps may just well go away with llms and agents.
only if tokens are 100% free 1000tps prefill and generation
> If ever needed, AOSP could be forked and it would still be leagues ahead of non-Android Linux phones.
I agree and thus donate to independent AOSP development (such as GrapheneOS).
It would probably be a great idea to replace many android components with components from the linux userspace ecosystem so that more code sharing between desktop linux distros and this is possible
I have been using the Librem 5 as my daily phone since 1 May 2022 (https://janvlug.org/blog/one-week-librem-5-field-trial-day-1...). And the Librem 5 is getting better and better, and its PureOS Linux operating system is actively maintained, and patches are still upstreamed (https://puri.sm/posts/tag/pureos/).
I really enjoy having a phone that gives me full root control, and that is very similar to the Fedora (GNOME) distribution that I have on my desktop and laptop.
Buying a Linux phone from a pure Linux hardware vendor like Purism helps sustaining the mobile Linux ecosystem.
Yes, the Librem 5 is a bit older phone with some rough edges, but for me it is a really good phone. It gives freedom in the free software sense, and consistency with my Linux computers. I gladly accept some minor inconvenience to have a phone that respects my freedom and privacy.
I cannot foresee the future, but for me the experience on a Linux phone that I control is far more superior than any phone that spies on me and takes away my freedom, like Android or iOS, basically any phone from any manufacturer that disrespects me.
Unless regulators enforce (at the very least) that hardware documentation sufficient to produce open source firmware/drivers must be supplied with that hardware, no - probably not.
Drivers and firmware are the biggest hurdle outside of locked bootloaders for competition in the operating system space.
Examples; Anything Apple (MacBook, iPhone), anything Samsung, anything Google, the list goes on.
There _is_ open hardware, but it has poor performance / battery / build quality and the vast majority of users will not accept that.
IMO "the right to repair software" is essential and this duopoly is a function of explicit monopolistic practices.
Maybe LLMs can help open the "reverse engineering" Pandora's box - but we have yet to see that realised - at least for drivers / firmware
I'd consider that solved with LLMs (the capability is already there and will only improve). The only remaining hurdle I'd say is hardware attestation.
I hope so. We haven't yet seen LLM-led reverse engineered firmware, but here's hoping!
so that's basically we don't know how to make the good hardware, let's force those who know give it to us.
That's one way to look at it. I applaud Apple and co for what they have created, but even drugs have patent expiries, eventually becoming generics.
I'd be fine with that model - let them make money for 5 years recouping their R&D costs, then they must offer documentation so the community can repair / maintain the hardware themselves.
I personally see it as falling under "the right to repair" and selfishly, I know we can do more with the hardware than they are demonstrating. It's endlessly frustrating that we are not allowed to and then the devices just disappear forever.
>I applaud Apple and co for what they have created, but even drugs have patent expiries, eventually becoming generics.
In the US, all patents have 20 year terms (from initial patent filing). Of course, patents don’t tell you how to make something, so it’s not sufficient for something like smartphones or medicine.
I’m working on a personal OS, a personal website that runs on my computer and I access on my phone thru Tailscale.
Then I got thinking, could I not just make a phone and messages mini apps for my personal OS that tap into iMessage and FaceTime on my Mac? Even if those don’t have APIs, you could use computer use and accessibility. A 3rd OS should simply be the web and a thin client that connects to your MacBook thru Tailscale.
Let's make a thought experiment: let's think about designing a new Linux distro from scratch. Obviously starting with Linux-the-kernel, and then thinking about what we need to be a modern smartphone OS.
- We'll probably want the security model, with the nice sandboxing and I would argue the verified boot.
- We'll want the battery optimisation.
- We'll want access to the firmwares of the components running in the phone.
- ...
From the very first step "start from Linux-the-kernel", every single question I ask myself goes towards the Android design and away from the classical Linux distro design.
In other words, the open source Linux distribution that is the closest to a modern mobile system is... Android :-).
The best battery life I ever got on a smartphone was on a HTC One X back in 2013 or so. It had a custom ROM (Paranoid Android IIRC) where I stripped out all the google services, blocked all wakelocks and so on. It had an nvidia Tegra3 CPU, which had 4 normal ARM cores and a 5th tiny core that ran at 100Mhz or so max (with powersave governor). On that setup, when I was not using it, it drained like 2% battery a day (50 day runtime). Since then we went from 40nm to 3nm, 2000mAh to 5000mAh, I'm doing the same things on my phone and yet, due to bloat and spyware the battery life is worse and worse. I went through HTC One m8, HTC 10, OnePlus 7Pro, and a Samsung Fold7 and each had worse efficiency than that 2011 CPU on the OneX (And a Nexus7-2012 until it died due to low quality NAND)
Even more so, it is the closest to Inferno's design, which was the evolution the UNIX founders went through.
Like they created UNIX, they declared it done, created Plan 9, followed by Inferno, most as a reaction to JavaOS, but still, the creators of UNIX moved on.
Whereas the FOSS community seems to be stuck in recreating Bell Labs in the 1970's.
Most of the FOSS community is hostile to even creating basic sandboxing. The Flatpak project gets panned all the time. Not for having a weak sandbox (which would be a fair criticism), but for having a sandbox at all and not using 90s-style package management.
A lot of people from the FOSS community seem to believe that (at least from recurring discussions) that Linux is secure because the software is open source and you can trust the maintainers. The idea that even trusted software can have vulnerabilities and that the 80s/90s security model of the standard Linux desktop means that you are only one Mastodon/e-mail/RSS/whatever client vulnerability away from exfiltration of your whole home directory does not even occur to them. All the while all these applications use (XML/image/...) parsers from the 90/00s written in C.
The only reason we don't see mass-exfiltration of data is because the Linux desktop marketshare is effectively meaningless. Though we see some results of the desktop security disaster (also to some extend of macOS) through leaked credentials obtained by compromised NPM, PyPI, etc. packages.
Yeah, pretty much so.
> Most of the FOSS community is hostile to even creating basic sandboxing.
> 90s-style package management
> 80s/90s security model
> parsers from the 90/00s
Perhaps the crux of the issue, and the reason these new systems get pushback, is because people, myself included, don't like being told that they have to stop using the tools that served them well for arbitrary reasons (usually age). Similarly, you can't expect everyone to trade user control, convenience, usability, and more for security, or sometimes perceived security.
We can debate about the 90s style package management, but old C-based file parsers and DAC access control were certainly not designed for modern attack vectors. Defending a device now requires layered security using a combination of among other things:
- Memory-safe languages where possible.
- Sandboxing of applications, parsers, etc., along with a strong permission model.
- Mitigation like secure app spawning, zeroing out pages, etc.
- Modern mitigation hardware-assisted mitigation like MTE and PAC.
- Storing secrets in a separate secure enclave (not ~/.config or ~/.ssh).
- Read-only and fully verified system partitions (anti-persistence).
This graph:
https://security.apple.com/assets/image/generated/xlarge_adv...
from Apple's MIE docs [1] shows where modern systems like iOS and Android are. An attacker often needs a long exploit chain to compromise a device and it becomes increasingly difficult with various mitigation techniques. On the standard Linux desktop it's often as easy as exploiting an image parser in a client. Old parsers in C have a history of bad vulnerabilities, exploiting one often gives you privileges of the process calling the function, since Linux applications mostly don't separate/sandbox parsers and from there you have direct access to all data of the user, since Linux applications are typically not sandboxed.
[1] https://security.apple.com/blog/memory-integrity-enforcement...
Another angle on this is general reliability and what that does to the experience. I'm reminded of Linus having a moan about poor availability of ECC in consumer RAM and how many errors that get blamed on software are actually down to something happening to hardware but it isn't specifically identified. Plus when you're talking billions of devices even small proportions are significant. Firefox built a memory tester into their bug reporter tool as that 'noise' became a large enough problem for them.
Lets not forget that the motivations for Alef, and Limbo, from the C authors themselves, were also to improve language safety.
In Inferno, only the kernel, DisVM (+ JIT), and a few drivers are still C, everything else in userspace is Limbo.
> Limbo is the application programming language for the Inferno operating system. Although Limbo looks syntactically like C, it has a number of features that make it easier to use, safer, and more suited to the heterogeneous, networked Inferno environment: a rich set of basic types, strong typing, garbage collection, concurrency, communications, and modules. Limbo may be interpreted or compiled ‘just in time’ for efficient, portable execution.
https://doc.cat-v.org/inferno/4th_edition/inferno_OS
And even if the design isn't the best in the world, it was then followed by Go, it was not what Google is doing in C++ should be redone in C.
https://commandcenter.blogspot.com/2012/06/less-is-exponenti...
Which is of course after having met those requirements IOS is basically android with a different name and closed source and we only need one player that isn't even properly foss. Or why ChomeOS invalidates the need to keep working on kde/gnome/etc
Or that isn't the case and this is all just a silly comparison.
Sorry I don't understand. Would you mind rephrasing that?
iOS and Android have an incredible amount of engineering to make them RAM and battery efficient that desktop Linux simply doesn't have.
And its not a case of simply implementing some feature, since all apps have to written with this stuff in mind: apps can be suspended/killed at any time and should be able to restart gracefully, notifications go through a side channel, etc etc
Do these phones have any of this?
Looking at the amount of RAM phones have nowadays I don't know if this is an issue, desktop Linux runs fine with those amounts. Also Android is not really memory efficient so they needed this workaround.
I currently have 35 apps "open" on my iPhone, most of which are probably React Native or similar.
Other times I'm sure I've hit 60-70.
Because of iOS's app management feature, most of the apps are actually dead, but if I go back and open any of them, they will open and load on the screen on which I left them.
Android does this too.
Desktop Linux cannot.
Can I open 60-70 or even 35 Electron apps simultaneously on 8GB of RAM on Linux?
And no, I do not want to to back to closing apps, that is simply an inferior experience.
> they will open and load on the screen on which I left them.
You can't be serious. Browsers can't even remember the most trivial of things - a tiny html page, retaining reading position, forcing a reload. Of course many apps are no better (though some do try, just like on the desktop) And it's especially worse with user input that just gets lost
> And no, I do not w to to back to closing apps, that is simply an inferior experience.
Ctrl+Q to close and a shortcut to open or is a faster and more convenient than swiping around. As is typing an app's name on a real keyboard. Tapping "desktop" icon is arguably better, though, that a mouse click
Of course some apps implement this better or worse, but for an app that doesn't implement this, booting me to the home page (which is just one tap away from where I was) is still miles better than hogging ram.
I don't want to close apps, I don't want to manage my computer's resources.
It should just work and it should just work well.
It's in unix. SIGSTOP and SIGCONT + swap.
And GPU buffers? And in-flight network requests? And notification handling? And D-Bus presence? And watchdogs? And other held resources like pids and fds?
These are things that would be easy to solve in Linux.
What is difficult is e.g. supporting the undocumented photo/video camera and other essential parts of the hardware that lack documentation.
This gets brought up several times in this discussion. Hardware with drivers, firmware and device trees exist, see e.g. Fairphone. It even works with open source camera apps (e.g. done in /e/OS). The problem is not (only) the hardware, it is that the Linux desktop stack is wholly unoptimized for phones. And the fact that Meego/Maemo/etc. are now almost two decades ago shows that it is not 'would be easy to solve'. Heck, Linux laptops, which have been available since forever still have far worse battery life than Windows or macOS.
You need a stack that is designed from first principles for phones. Luckily we have one that is open source (AOSP).
You haven't tried to run a Linux on Mobile distro on your phone and compared the battery life to Android, have you?
Spoiler: I have :-)
Depending on the phone they'd struggle to go in a low power state when the screen is off or can't access other power saving features because the manufacturers keep everything under wraps.
this. years ago i was working with Intel and Samsung to enable Tizen on x86 phones. energy management was the biggest problem they had. RISC won. moreover, 8 years later Apple was moving away from x86_64 to ARM, so one could say ARM won because of better energy management, either through lower usage or other types of energy saving techniques. Google Pixel (ARM) had similar issues with battery life, or better yet battery drain during idle times. People underestimate battery saving techniques. As in all software engineering, when the focus is enablement, optimizations take a second stage.
And it doesn't actually work reliably, at least on Android. My wife and I frequently don't get notifications from specific apps, only once we open them. My impression is that the platform just changes too frequently with regards of what you have to do to work well even when you're killed. Also, especially for push notifications, your now at the mercy of Googles service to delvier them to your app (not sure how the open source variants do it)
There is also the problem, that some OEMs add their own "battery optimizations". If you simply don't run anything its indeed very battery efficient... Forcing push notifications through some central service has minimal benefits at best. Open source variants are forced to publish annoying persistent notifications and ask the user to flip some "battery optimization" toggle deep inside the settings to not get killed, of course this often enough changes with Android versions.
Same for us on our Grapheneos Pixels. Notification are a bit of a lottery. But we take that as a feature. People can call if there's an emergency.
On all apps? I have never had issues with notifications...
Some don't work at all, bc they must be GSF-only I guess (installed via Aurora store). Others like Whatsapp or Signal sort of work but sometimes the app seems to not be running (even though I set up the no battery optimization). And I get multiple unread messages at once when manually starting the app.
Same, they work fine and are immediate. The only exception has been Signal. Must be that I'm using sandboxed Google Play Services?
I use sandboxed Google Play Services, Signal has been fine... I cannot say it's always immediate (I'm not always on my phone :-) ), but I have never been frustrated for "missing" a notification. Like when I check my phone, the Signal messages are there, they don't appear 3 days later.
Oh, they certainly don't appear days later. But sometimes they do between ~1-30 minutes. This is a well-known issue, you can find many topic about it. When you open the app, everything comes in all at onec.
It is sometimes annoying to me. I cycle a lot and sometimes my wife or somebody else sends a message when I'm on the go (like picking up some extra groceries) and then I miss it.
There is a longer discussion with various people here:
https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/issues/14166
UnifiedPush is an open source solution for push notifications that isn't tied to a particular service provider. A handful of apps support it.
https://unifiedpush.org/
All this "engineering" really is, is basically just reducing CPU use (trading it for doing things on HW accelerators/offloads if present) and lowering the voltage/frequency to what's needed and suspend/resume. There's no special sauce in there.
App can be easily stopped in linux via SIGSTOP/SIGCONT. It will consume 0 power then. :)
Even original Pinephone has all what's needed for efficient use of energy for smartphone use cases.
And if you stop thinking of "apps" as processes and design architecture differently, you can have millisecond scale reactions to all user input on the entire phone even on original pinephone. Apps opening in a blink of an eye right after boot, etc. :)
Linux phones trying to reproduce Android architecture are kinda pointless. What would be the point, when you have the freedom to implement any other architecture, actually suited for the user centered model, where you don't have to ballance the needs of untrusted app providers.
Yet
Linux on phones have been around since the late 00s (e.g. through Nokia's efforts). Why would this suddenly change? Heck, even after decades, the battery life of most laptops running Linux is still much worse than Windows, let alone macOS.
I have had several generations of ThinkPads and to this day, battery life is typically ~50-60% of that of Windows, even with all battery optimizations applied. And Windows is terrible compared to Mac or Android/iOS phones.
And I say this as a long-time Linux user (used Linux in some form since 1994). It's just a very hard nut to crack if you miss a certain amount of vertical of integration and coordination across the ecosystem.
We are _not allowed_ to make it good. Without hardware documentation, you're looking at decades of reverse engineering effort just to get somewhere half as far as an engineer with hardware documentation can get in a weekend.
Look at Asahi. Almost a decade in and we can use the GPU at like 30% of its ability on 6 year old hardware.
That a project with major interest. No one cares about spending a decade reverse engineering the hardware on a Google Pixel or Samsung Galaxy.
If they gave us proper full hardware documentation, we could create high quality alternatives. Again, we can't so you don't see it.
Competition is good. We should always advocate for things that enable competition.
> Look at Asahi. Almost a decade in and we can use the GPU at like 30% of its ability on 6 year old hardware.
Wasn't M1 GPU actually supposed to perform better on Linux than on macOS?
> Without hardware documentation, you're looking at decades of reverse engineering effort just to get somewhere half as far as an engineer with hardware documentation can get in a weekend.
I'm not sure this is true anymore and it is becoming less true with each new LLM release.
> No one cares about spending a decade reverse engineering the hardware on a Google Pixel or Samsung Galaxy.
Actually, this might a cool idea - just get a few super cheap smartphones, connect them all to a PC, give LLM access and tell it "make linux gud like android pls" and just give it a weekend.
Even if you have the binary driver and you decompile it with the help of a LLM, it does not provide most of the information from the documentation.
You may see that the driver writes some hundreds of magic constants in some hardware registers, but you do not know what they mean. You may be able to do exactly what the binary driver, does, but you will not be able to improve it, e.g. to enable features that happen to be not enabled in that driver.
So a LLM can speed up the initial part of reverse engineering if you have the files with binary drivers, which may be difficult to extract from certain phones, but a lot of work remains to discover all that the hardware can do.
> Why would this suddenly change?
I see three aspects there.
The first is that google is currently rugpulling via various means and _really_ playing those anticompetetiveness-cards. That wasn't the case previously. So there wasn't much motivation to care, because android was "open enough".
The second is that the world is getting less geopolitically stable. So the whole ecosystem lockdowns are not just a personal preference thing but might be actually vital.
The third is that LLMs are kinda good at these optimization loops if you hand them a framework in which they can sample good data.
I also had a fourth thought but it left my mind :(
Android is still open enough. Worst case, AOSP can be forked and it will still be leagues ahead of non-Android Linux phones. That also applies to the sovereignty point. I see especially GrapheneOS and /e/OS grow because of this in local communities.
LLM-driven optimization is a good point. However, Linux desktop communities tend to be quite aggressively anti-LLM. E.g. GrapheneOS has been heavily attacked by these people for only using an LLM for security auditing. But maybe these projects will fork into LLM-accepted forks who will then rapidly out-innovate.
> iOS and Android have an incredible amount of engineering to make them RAM and battery efficient that desktop Linux simply doesn't have
This one of the most understated reasons.
If you look at ARM, SBC and MiniPC market, Linux can be very frugal when it comes to power management and RAM use. Just because a bog standard Ubuntu or Debian is not tuned towards it doesn't mean it can't.
It's a problem at the Wayland/Wayland protocols/XDG level.
There is simply not enough rich app activity information for the session manager to do smart management.
Compare it to what iOS and Android apps report about themseleves and the conditions they are forced to run in (such as being arbitrarily killed and restarted).
Obviously the Linux kernel is perfectly able to sit in a stack like this (see: Android), it's the XDG standards which are not well suited for this.
We can extend the standard, no?
I don't want to add yet another standard because the best part of the standards is there is too much to choose from.
It's a matter of signaling, though, and if we improve the signaling, we can build upon it.
Again, it's not a simple task (I dug into GNOME's compositor for two weeks just to find a note saying "Errm, we didn't implement this to X11 specs and it does funny things on touchscreens. If somebody can do this all over, we'd be glad. KTHXBYE"), and we were developing something for touch screens, albeit huge ones.
Well, I won't go into details today, maybe later.
It’s not only a matter of tuning. Everything in the stack needs to be developed to go idle and not do things in the background by themselves. The Linux desktop and all its apps are made for a model where apps can continually get CPU time.
I know, but that's a set of libraries. Nothing which can't be done, because the foundation is there. In most basic terms, you need to be able to freeze apps and be able to tell when they have nothing to do, so they can be scheduled with minimal time slices to run a single, lightweight function to check whether they need to do anything at all.
Of course it's more complicated than that, but it's not impossible, since the foundation is already there.
It's just closed source drivers stored in private Linux forks (or Apple's code dungeon).
There's nothing inherently special about their optimisations, but hardware is incredibly complex and without documentation, open source drivers cannot be written that are anywhere close to what engineers with hardware docs can build.
Asahi Linux is a great example. It's an unbelievable project but still far from first party Apple drivers.
Once the hardware can actually be used, competition in the OS space will follow.
They have no incentive to offer documentation and competition is bad - so they won't allow that. Regulators must step in here.
Before the talks of alternative platforms, there should be legislation in place for services to expose http endpoints for all services rendered. I.e., a legitimate user should be able to point their web browser at it--behind whatever authentication and bot-detection shenanigans they want--and avail the services. No apps, no crap, no bloat.
In other words, the 'app culture', and the attendant normalisation of data stealing, must end. This effectively takes "app-" and platform-dependency out of the picture. Services are no more burdened with supporting n number of platforms; nor do they have an incentive to push people to start using their apps. Services can still offer an app, and users still have a choice to use one. But, the baseline client should be a browser. And there shouldn't be any discrimination between mobile vs. desktop browsers, either.
I just want a virtual phone on my Android device. Why is this so hard?
So a new phone means just moving the VM. The only unique thing my Android layer has to do is route the internet..
the manufacturer of the gsm and cellular hardware do not what their products to be commodities that users can interchange easily. They want their commercial supplier contracts to be between negotiated cartels, which allows each producer to eat a certain horizontal slice of the pie.
Every player in this space currently has this incentive imho.
They always had.
While everyone that was doing vertical integration in the last century, had the whole product to sell, the OEMs selling IBM PC clones were all alike, so they always had something to differentiate, being the shovelware that was offered alongside the PC, pre-installed, painted cases, whatever.
That's a very simplistic idea of what it would entail.
Yes. And I would argue that in the form of the Sailfish OS devices.from Jolla, they already are a viable alternative.
The year of the Linux desktop still hasn't arrived with the hardware much much more open, strange to hope phones have a chance
What a fantastic article. As someone who has contributed to Phosh and Nura (prev. postmarketOS), I was always sad that Linux phones didn't take off. This article describes very well how difficult the firmware/hardware side is, which as a software guy I hadn't quite understood.
The software side (Phosh, KDE, etc) is now improving fast (both IMO because the obscure frameworks they're written in are easier to contribute to with AI, but also just thanks to time and maturity).
And if the firmware/hardware side can graduate the treadmill of endless bring-up and instead work on performance and fun stuff, that would be fantastic. We need our Raspberry Pi moment. First the Librem and Pinephone were our hope, then the OnePlus 6, but they all stayed 80% usable. Currently it was the Fairphone, but now tbd which the savior device will be. Exciting!
I wonder whether Android/iOS will ever become a viable alternative to GNU/Linux phones. They failed to make me switch for nearly two decades now and only seem to be getting worse.
I think there will never be mass-market “Linux phones” in the sense of “runs a Linux kernel and you can tinker with all their parts”.
Demand simply is too low. FTA: (https://amosbbatto.wordpress.com/2026/10/05/linux-phones-alt...):
“Jolla has sold 15,000 units of its phone as of August 2026 just by taking pre-orders for production batches from its web site”
In comparison, Apple easily sells 15,000 phones each hour of the year.
So, the best hope for such a Linux phone would be to have something installable on hardware of a third party that normally ships Android. I don’t see that happen because such hardware gets locked down more and more to defend against cybercrime.
I don't think it is fair comparing Jolla agains half of the current Smartphone monopolists.
Also you need to build an ecosystem so that users and developers can get involved & open hardware fully supported by Sailfish OS is a good start.
Also a lot of mainstream mobile hardware is locked down on purpose to effectively enforce planned obsolescence, which makes it harder to port a sane OS on it.
If i will not able to get in control of the device, at least as much as macos level, and still able to make contactless payments, approve online payements, breaking the duopoly will not matter much for me.
Maybe i should aim for a second smallest possible android phone just for banking to set my mobile computing free. (İ was already tried using unihertz jelly star as my daily driver for a while)
I have been reading this since OpenMoko.
No they want, unless they cater to normies, instead of trying to be X Windows and UNIX CLI on a tiny phone.
And for better or worse, actually make deals with OEMs, instead of trying to reverse engineer them, phones aren't like IBM PC compatibles.
Sailfish OS is, IMO, good enough for daily use. I do use their (Android) App Support for a few apps out of convenience because, for example, I just like Symfonium music and audiobook player. However, if I would approach it more strictly, I could comfortably live without Android on the device at all. Do take that with a grain of salt, though - I don't use mobile banking apps and NFC payment, for example.
edit: The hardware supply chain is an issue, though. It's all Android hardware under the hood because that's the only thing you can buy. So there are crutches necessary to translate between Android drivers with their hardware abstraction layer and "proper" Linux. Libhybris does that in case of Sailfish OS / Jolla (the company behind the OS) and it works well but I wouldn't call it elegant, necessarily.
Uhmmm...no. Developing an operating system like Android requires hundreds if not thousands of engineers and hundreds of millions of dollars a year. I don't see a couple of smelly haggards in a basement attaining the same level of quality and depth anytime soon.
I mean, it took Linux more than 30 years to come somewhat close to the desktop experience Windows has been given us.
Any mobile operating system would need, in addition, something extra to compete with iOS and Android. Like a real-time microkernel operating system to enhance security.
The problem is that a lot of important apps have Google Play Security lock in.
I've already tried linux mobile oses on a few devices but they all have issues with calls and sms working. I have no idea why devs don't focus on the basics of a phone working as a phone and instead j*k off over the ui (which is still slow and buggy) or other apps. Because why would I need a fitness app, a step counter, some fancy notification animations etc if the phone doesn't work AS a phone?
Which phones did you try? My Librem 5 has no problems with calls and texts.
Inevitable given that a lot of dev entrepreneurs are moving from high level CRUD to low level software, CAD and hardware now with AI. But it might move beyond Linux once AIs come up with their own programming languages.
No, Linux phones won't become a viable alternative to Android or iOS phones.
The average phone user couldn't give a damn about the underlying OS - they buy on price and features - not the "hackability", or whatever drives the good readers of Hacker news to buy phones.
Linux phones sounds like so much to miss if not having one! I wonder why its not already out?
I have been using Sailfish OS from Jolla since 2013 on my main phone. They are even selling a new phone with Sailfish OS preinstalled now: https://commerce.jolla.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Librem_5, my daily driver.
I have a hot take on this: I don't think iOS and Android have long for this world. In five years, phones will just be an AI device. Local compute when possible, cloud compute when required. The OS will be whatever the AI dynamically creates for the user's tastes and requirements. People won't buy apps anymore. They'll create them on the fly as needed. In rare cases where an app purchase happens (such as a YouTube subscription), the AI will facilitate the purchase with Google's AI.
This makes me tremendously excited someday to take a hammer to my current phone until it is reduced to fine dust, replace it with a perfectly dumb landline, and never give the matter a second thought.
No, and the reason has nothing to do with technology. Consumers can buy a phone running Android or iOS in retail stores. They can buy a desktop running Windows or macOS in retail stores. They cannot buy a phone or desktop running Linux (by default) in retail stores. That's why we have a duopolies on mobile and desktop.
If it's not easy for consumers to find something, most consumers won't find it. If a product is not available in retail stores, it's not a mass market product. If a buyer has to ignore the default operating system and instead download and install a different operating system on the device, they mostly won't.
Sure, in the year of the linux desktop.
I wish. sadly, no. even the year of the linux desktop may very well never come to pass. I've always felt there's always been a fundamental disconnect between what linux users/devs THINK general audiences want, and what they ACTUALLY want. I applaud them for all their hard effort, they've really come a long way, and they never even got a dime for it (W foss, L microslop), but man the ux has always been a nightmare lol. I absolutely love my laptop running mint, its running better than it ever did with windows, but I could never recommend something even this 'simple' to someone who isn't a hobbyist, or has a lot of spare time to configure and maintain it, or cares about their privacy, etc. I understand also there's many other factors at play here that are completely out of the hands of the dev/community, like the fact its almost never natively supported by just about every app, and I dont mean to put that on them either. they're just more factors holding it back from mainstream adoption.
so if that's been the case on desktop, smartphones are just so far out of the picture. i dont see how the year of the linux smartphone could ever come before the year of the linux desktop.
I really hope I'm wrong. thanks for reading my meh-ly informed 2¢.
> I absolutely love my laptop running mint, its running better than it ever did with windows, but I could never recommend something even this 'simple' to someone who isn't a hobbyist, or has a lot of spare time to configure and maintain it, or cares about their privacy, etc.
My non-technical relatives run Debian just fine. I don't understand what you are talking about. It has unattendend upgrades and doesn't have to be configured or tinkered with after install.
Funny how this entire comment section is full of people who have never used anything but ios or android. Not sure if it's just all bots, or if even HN is just full of NPCs nowadays. Glad to see the fanboys are finally agreeing on something though! >_<
I've just written another post somewhere in this thread about discovering a nice feature in KDE Plasma, and remembered my recent search for a way to output HDMI from my old iPhone without ridiculous compression, and all this Linux phone talk stated to make me have crazy thoughts about how much I want Plasma Mobile. I was all set to write "just give me Plasma Mobile on something the size of an iPhone 13 Mini, and I don't care how much doesn't work". I used a 1st Gen iPhone SE, years past where it was sensible. I can suffer.
I started to list my few, basic must-haves - aware that everyone has a different list - but my own short list got embarrassingly long, very quickly. I thought I had simple requirements!
Obvious basics which surely aren't too much to ask: email, calendar, reminder and note syncing, password manager with TOTP generator, instant messaging (willingly to compromise and have only Signal or WhatsApp), route navigation, basic browsing, half-decent camera, ...
Phone calls - so I probably need 4G and 5G...
Oh - plus uncountable other small apps or utilities that hardly seem worth mentioning: calculator, file browser, compass, voice memos, ...
And then I thought about the ever-growing list of big, ugly Apps that I could live without, but really do make my life easier. Banking apps (sigh - I hate how many of these virtually require an app), the app to unlock my apartment block door, Outlook, Teams, ...
And then I started having sensible, disappointing thoughts. Maybe I'd rather just keep the iPhone 13 Mini. I just got a new battery (and bonus screen) installed by Apple on the weekend...
But seriously, when that starts to be unusable... if I have to carry something obnoxiously large, it better run mainstream Linux and turn into a desktop when I plug a USB-C dock into it!
The way things are going, these will become the only viable option for an independent device.
What are smartphones in China running? Presumably not something Google controls.
Degoogle Android, Actually quite easy to bring back google service. I'm using the Chinese-version vivo x200p, the most troublesome is having to put app in enery-intense mode if you want them to run in background, or else the OS will kill them if they are unused for a while.
HarmonyOS NEXT, which is the only serious viable alternative to ios or android
Which is a microkernel based OS, with a userspace based on ArkTS, C, C++ and eventually Cangjie.
Quite interesting for us OS nerds, less so for those that only care about UNIX on their phone.
Mostly just de-googled android
Huawei's HarmonyOS is quite good. As for other brands like OPPO and Xiaomi, I've used them before too. You can use Google Play and a whole range of Google apps, but the localization adaptation is much better.
HarmonyOS and HarmonyOS NEXT, are they own thing.
I can't wait for any IS different from android/iOS to do so
Linux need a "Wine for Android" moment to be viable.
There is an Android Translation Layer now, and there were different attempts earlier.
Yeah, it is impressive how well it works now on devices like the Steam Frame and elsewhere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waydroid
Android is linux.
Only the userland is some java based abomination... well was a long time ago, maybe after all those years, the android userland has a minimal set of simple binary interfaces and simple file formats, which I could even code reasonably code directly in assembly (this is the benchmark).
Something is wispering to my hears: "nooo! there is no such things as minimal system interfaces and file formats on android linux". Wrong?
2050 the future of Linux in the pocket!
Kinda had them with jailbroken iphones.
Imo they already are.. They're actual non-hobbled computers you can do what you want with. Think of all the things you can do on Linux.. Now you can do that on your pocket sized computer.
Sure all the conventional mobile ecosystem stuff wont work. But that's entirely a giant ball of cancer anyway. Only a fool would want to deal with that filth.
yes but with the catch of waydroid working
No.
there is Jolla.
https://jolla.com/
I still have a drawer full of OpenMoko. A couple Creative Labs Zii Eggs. Some OpenPandora, and even a hacked up FairPhone, donated to my parts bin, non-working.
I sure wish the Zii Egg had made it out of prototype stages. It showed the most promise - a bare-metal Linux OS, multiple cores, very, very easy to write apps for it - just plain C/C++ really.
Linux phones never happened because the distro's constructed for them were overly complicated, unnecessarily encumbered with 'smart features', and just generally (imho), sabotaged by the cult of collective development. Its the sort of project that requires a BDFL pushing things forward - none of the failed Linux phones ever had that.
These days, I'd rather see someone produce an ESP32 phone with LoRA and maybe SDR, and leave it at that.
But, there is another issue. The modems. It is always the modems. Until someone courageously open sources the modem chip and its firmware, there is no hope.
Android is Linux
No
if European governments/banks keep relying on safety verification supplied by American Google and Apple then no, they don't stand a chance
you can stop using US Visa/MC cards, but it's kinda pointless if you EU bank app still requires verification from US Google/Apple for app to run
I wish European govs would stop requiring Google Play services in Android phone and provided their own solution
The European Network for Payments (ENP) was announced last month as a challenger to the Visa/Mastercard duopoly. Time will tell, I guess...
that't not challenger to Visa/MC at all, it doesn't issue any cards, it is just different name for existing instant wire transfers which you can do also through QR code through whatever banking app you use, nothing to do with some "European Network for Payments (ENP)"
that's like saying I have new solution to wheel, which will be called European circle, it will be the same wheel we already have, but under the new fancy EU name!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...
Google already put in the resources to make a Linux phone viable and they released a lot of that work via AOSP.
Android is Linux.
Now with people decompiling and recompiling apps for different platforms and how fast coding has gotten with AI, spinning up a Linux phone platform is much more achievable now. That wasn't true a year ago.
I am not sure but the less power Google has, the better. I am getting tired of those Trump milking machinery leeching off of others - we already see how Trump treats Ukrainians. The ultimate agent Krasnov, just as Yuri predicted in the 1980s already: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5It1zarINv0