"In every partnership, there is a person who stacks the dishwasher like a Scandinavian architect and a person who stacks the dishwasher like a raccoon on meth." - Someone online.
At home I'm the architect, my wife's the raccoon. I don't actually believe that you can stack the dishwasher wrong as such, but you can make it hard for yourself to unload, if you don't sort the items correctly.
In my dishwasher (some bosch almost identical to the model in the simulation), if you put plastic storage containers upside down on the bottom rack, the force of the jets flip them over and they fill up and don't get clean. They also end up using more water (I think?) because there is water trapped in the dishwasher at the end of the cycle, and things don't dry. Also, if you put large things in particular places they prevent the jet arms from rotating.
Dishwasher physics matter. But I would never criticize a person in my family for loading the dishwasher the "wrong" way; I just sneak in and reorganize when nobody's looking.
More than once a week in my teens, my dad used to coach me on (manual) dishwashing technique and it drove me mad. My teenager can't load the dishwasher for love nor money (rotating arms blocked, filthy plates two to a slot so water can't get between them, etc).There's been something a bit like mindfulness in just leaving him be and then remedying the issues after he's gone to bed, reminding myself while I do it, that I'll miss his shitty dishwasher loading technique when he moves out.
What I've found is that large bulky items (pots, pans, etc) are usually cleaned easily manually, and doing so saves up lots more room for the plates and glasses in the dishwasher. The dishwasher then seems to run better/faster/more effectively, and I actually enjoy cleaning the large stuff for some reason.
> I don't actually believe that you can stack the dishwasher wrong as such
There are definitely more and less correct ways, but personally i think it's "wrong" to load it in a way that leaves the arms blocked or (not) tilt pieces that get excessive water pooling on top
> I don't actually believe that you can stack the dishwasher wrong as such
You most definitely can, they're not magic! The water must hit the right spots and obviously stacking three plates without any space between leads to stuff not getting properly cleaned.
If you try to teach a kid to put the dishwasher you'll learn a ton of wrong ways of doing it! :)
shouldn't stacking like a raccoon on meth be the most optimal way though? since if they're too well stacked you risk water being unable to enter tight places
> I don't actually believe that you can stack the dishwasher wrong as such
I read our dishwashers manual and was surprised at the significant amount of detail about how to position silverware for optimal cleaning (e.g. where to place small spoons, where to place forks, where to place large spoons, etc.)
At our place it's opposite, I guess when you do it often enough you get a preferred method though a relentless optimization loop, which in the end ensures it's all clean, the plates are well separated only in 1 particular order, the glasses are placed to the left so all small pans fit at the right, deep plates are placed half over cutlery rack so they are supported and more fit in, small plates in front so all lids fit before them... etc etc etc.
Yep, I have a more optimised model of stacking than my wife’s ideas. This has lead to “discussions” (still at a friendly level) and the dish washer being placed in my list of responsibilities.
I think optimal configuration is very much a NP complete problem.
Just because a problem is NP-complete doesn't mean it's infeasible to produce "good enough" approximate solutions. The traveling salesman problem is a great example of this.
Not only that, the maximum n a dishwasher can hold is small enough that it can be fairly trivially solved within a reasonable amount of time...though to be fair, iterations are pretty slow, but I think that's fairly easily compensated for with axioms (silverware goes in the silverware spot)
It’s an interesting problem to pack the dishwasher with as many objects as possible and maintain the highest level of cleanliness. Sometimes, there’s an small thing leftover so then repack in a different configuration.
Very cool and fun idea. This is a meta comment about the repo readme - there is an immense amount of what I would call ‘complaint smuggling’ / diffidence in the readme - basically Claude is uncomfortable about some of the claims vis a vis the status and embeds those negative feelings everywhere.
I suggest you have it scrub all of this from the readme; you’ll likely need to give it a few examples. It will improve readability a lot, and be less fatiguing to read. Plus if you scrub it all you won’t reprompt that attitude every time an agent reads the readme.
Btw I got Claude to give me the name “complaint smuggling” by giving it ten examples and asking it for a name. it’s an error pattern that’s so common I wanted to know what the model thought of it as - makes communicating about it really simple.
Can anyone confirm whether it simulates the spinning arm getting stuck on an item that juts downward through the top tray - thereby stopping the whole load from being washed properly.
Thats the most common problem in my dishwasher. It kindof looks like it would simulate that but they dont spell it out.
Come to think of it, if the players dont have an option to "spin the spinner by hand to make sure its not catching on anything" they're going to be in for a rough ride.
For added difficulty, have it 'stack' a 3D rendered volumetric plastic model of a pelican riding a bicycle, like if it were putting a child's toy in the dishwasher.
I love these novel ways to benchmark LLMs. I created one myself, I figured creating a programming language designed to confuse LLMs would be a good test, and it does seem to be: https://bench.killswitch-lang.org/.
I wonder if anyone has crafted a LLM benchmarks list website/github.
Years ago after my wife filled the dishwasher I commented that it looked like a 12-year-old filled it. I said it as a joke but it really hurt her and I still feel bad about it. That said, it no longer looks like that when she fills it...
my feeling is that stacking a dishwasher involves enough image processing and computer-use (or more realistically robotics) that it's a frontier model job rather than a 'write a program to do it' job
I have to admit that for many years I assumed a dishwasher physically filled the entire chamber with hot water to wash dishes. Then, one day a person opened up a dishwasher while it was running, took out a plate, clicked start, and closed the washer. My mental model literally changed in an instant.
As we know from physics, even the most sophisticated mechanisms (e.g. friction) often ends up having a very simple model (proportional to the normal force).
Sooo, the score is maybe mostly just how much they fit?
Question for both: do you think that is also the case with a real-world dishwasher (it's mostly about getting stuff to fit), or do you think it's an issue with the current sim?
sure the code isn't hand-written and it's a work in progress, but it's designed to be modelled and calibrated around my own dishwasher so it's verifiably non-slop
The obvious fork is "can frontier models stack a dishwasher to my wife's exacting standards".
I can't. So that would surely be proof of AGI.
"In every partnership, there is a person who stacks the dishwasher like a Scandinavian architect and a person who stacks the dishwasher like a raccoon on meth." - Someone online.
At home I'm the architect, my wife's the raccoon. I don't actually believe that you can stack the dishwasher wrong as such, but you can make it hard for yourself to unload, if you don't sort the items correctly.
In my dishwasher (some bosch almost identical to the model in the simulation), if you put plastic storage containers upside down on the bottom rack, the force of the jets flip them over and they fill up and don't get clean. They also end up using more water (I think?) because there is water trapped in the dishwasher at the end of the cycle, and things don't dry. Also, if you put large things in particular places they prevent the jet arms from rotating.
Dishwasher physics matter. But I would never criticize a person in my family for loading the dishwasher the "wrong" way; I just sneak in and reorganize when nobody's looking.
>> just sneak in and reorganize when nobody's looking.
This is the way. I am just happy when someone else, anyone else, actually puts dishes in the dishwasher.
More than once a week in my teens, my dad used to coach me on (manual) dishwashing technique and it drove me mad. My teenager can't load the dishwasher for love nor money (rotating arms blocked, filthy plates two to a slot so water can't get between them, etc).There's been something a bit like mindfulness in just leaving him be and then remedying the issues after he's gone to bed, reminding myself while I do it, that I'll miss his shitty dishwasher loading technique when he moves out.
What I've found is that large bulky items (pots, pans, etc) are usually cleaned easily manually, and doing so saves up lots more room for the plates and glasses in the dishwasher. The dishwasher then seems to run better/faster/more effectively, and I actually enjoy cleaning the large stuff for some reason.
> I don't actually believe that you can stack the dishwasher wrong as such
There are definitely more and less correct ways, but personally i think it's "wrong" to load it in a way that leaves the arms blocked or (not) tilt pieces that get excessive water pooling on top
My favorite wrong way is when someone completely covers a small item (ramekin, espresso cup) with a larger item (bowl, food storage container).
I would totally do this, is this wrong? It still gets sprayed from the bottom no?
> I don't actually believe that you can stack the dishwasher wrong as such
You most definitely can, they're not magic! The water must hit the right spots and obviously stacking three plates without any space between leads to stuff not getting properly cleaned.
If you try to teach a kid to put the dishwasher you'll learn a ton of wrong ways of doing it! :)
I think putting cups with the opening facing upward is very close to "technically correct, but very wrong"
shouldn't stacking like a raccoon on meth be the most optimal way though? since if they're too well stacked you risk water being unable to enter tight places
The stacking regime is meant to maximize water flow and surface exposure to water jets, at least when optimized.
> I don't actually believe that you can stack the dishwasher wrong as such
I read our dishwashers manual and was surprised at the significant amount of detail about how to position silverware for optimal cleaning (e.g. where to place small spoons, where to place forks, where to place large spoons, etc.)
> but you can make it hard for yourself to unload if you don’t sort the items correctly.
I learned a long time ago that the ability to recognize and exploit a structured system is the most emotionally satisfying thing in the world.
The question becomes: is it faster to sort during packing, or to sort during unpacking?
You're already loading it perfectly according to The Oatmeal :-D
https://theoatmeal.com/comics/dishwasher
Never have truer words been spoken, I too score poorly on DishwasherBench wife mode. Drives her up the wall.
At our place it's opposite, I guess when you do it often enough you get a preferred method though a relentless optimization loop, which in the end ensures it's all clean, the plates are well separated only in 1 particular order, the glasses are placed to the left so all small pans fit at the right, deep plates are placed half over cutlery rack so they are supported and more fit in, small plates in front so all lids fit before them... etc etc etc.
Yep, I have a more optimised model of stacking than my wife’s ideas. This has lead to “discussions” (still at a friendly level) and the dish washer being placed in my list of responsibilities.
I think optimal configuration is very much a NP complete problem.
Just because a problem is NP-complete doesn't mean it's infeasible to produce "good enough" approximate solutions. The traveling salesman problem is a great example of this.
Not only that, the maximum n a dishwasher can hold is small enough that it can be fairly trivially solved within a reasonable amount of time...though to be fair, iterations are pretty slow, but I think that's fairly easily compensated for with axioms (silverware goes in the silverware spot)
Apologies, my OCD was showing.
It’s an interesting problem to pack the dishwasher with as many objects as possible and maintain the highest level of cleanliness. Sometimes, there’s an small thing leftover so then repack in a different configuration.
Try explaining this to a raccoon.. on meth.
I did, once ;)
Are our wives' standards impossible to reach or are our husbands weaponising incompetence?
[dead]
The obvious fork is, sadly, in the dishwasher. You can get it back in two hours.
Inspired by Joma Tech's new YouTube video
Stacked loads are run against a dishwasher simulation calibrated to my own Bosch dishwasher
Playable by both humans and AI
Currently a WIP, simulations need refining before running a full benchmark, but keen to hear some feedback!
Very cool and fun idea. This is a meta comment about the repo readme - there is an immense amount of what I would call ‘complaint smuggling’ / diffidence in the readme - basically Claude is uncomfortable about some of the claims vis a vis the status and embeds those negative feelings everywhere.
I suggest you have it scrub all of this from the readme; you’ll likely need to give it a few examples. It will improve readability a lot, and be less fatiguing to read. Plus if you scrub it all you won’t reprompt that attitude every time an agent reads the readme.
Btw I got Claude to give me the name “complaint smuggling” by giving it ten examples and asking it for a name. it’s an error pattern that’s so common I wanted to know what the model thought of it as - makes communicating about it really simple.
Mmmm yea interesting, thanks for the feedback will push an update :)
Is this the Joma Tech inspiration video?
https://youtu.be/ofdMfljL360?is=HUXg-DfndK4XeRbO
Can anyone confirm whether it simulates the spinning arm getting stuck on an item that juts downward through the top tray - thereby stopping the whole load from being washed properly.
Thats the most common problem in my dishwasher. It kindof looks like it would simulate that but they dont spell it out.
Come to think of it, if the players dont have an option to "spin the spinner by hand to make sure its not catching on anything" they're going to be in for a rough ride.
100%, users check before kicking off a run whether the drawers close and the spinner spins
Fantastic
> A verdict cannot be trusted for:
> A spray arm held still by an item: the plates above it keep their verdicts
The real story of how Navier Stokes was solved involved a dishwasher:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofdMfljL360
I hadn't seen it before, funny. OP mentioned in a top level comment that this Joma Tech video was part of their inspiration.
Came here to post this :)
For added difficulty, have it 'stack' a 3D rendered volumetric plastic model of a pelican riding a bicycle, like if it were putting a child's toy in the dishwasher.
I love these novel ways to benchmark LLMs. I created one myself, I figured creating a programming language designed to confuse LLMs would be a good test, and it does seem to be: https://bench.killswitch-lang.org/.
I wonder if anyone has crafted a LLM benchmarks list website/github.
Years ago after my wife filled the dishwasher I commented that it looked like a 12-year-old filled it. I said it as a joke but it really hurt her and I still feel bad about it. That said, it no longer looks like that when she fills it...
Perhaps a better question would be "can frontier models write a program to effectively stack a dishwasher?"
yea super interesting q
my feeling is that stacking a dishwasher involves enough image processing and computer-use (or more realistically robotics) that it's a frontier model job rather than a 'write a program to do it' job
but keen to hear if you disagree
I have to admit that for many years I assumed a dishwasher physically filled the entire chamber with hot water to wash dishes. Then, one day a person opened up a dishwasher while it was running, took out a plate, clicked start, and closed the washer. My mental model literally changed in an instant.
ahahhaa
This is so cool!
Imagine creating real simulated env for every physical task and using RL to train robots. That will be a game changer.
This is already pretty well established in the ML robotics world! e.g. this paper from 2019: https://publica-rest.fraunhofer.de/server/api/core/bitstream... and also for waymo in 2016: https://waymo.com/blog/2016/12/reliving-past-how-these-data-...
yeaaa perhaps this is the future
It was the future many years ago, today it's standard practice :)
Both models’ loads came out 84-100% clean, so is the score mostly just how much they fit?
Totally the opposite, there's a detailed dishwasher simulation under the hood: ray tracing, splash simulation, soak, heat, enzyme action
I calibrated it against my actual dishwasher by doing some test runs with baked egg
As we know from physics, even the most sophisticated mechanisms (e.g. friction) often ends up having a very simple model (proportional to the normal force).
Sooo, the score is maybe mostly just how much they fit?
Question for both: do you think that is also the case with a real-world dishwasher (it's mostly about getting stuff to fit), or do you think it's an issue with the current sim?
The sim needs work, for sure
[flagged]
I love this! Cant wait to try this.
[flagged]
[dead]
[flagged]
sure the code isn't hand-written and it's a work in progress, but it's designed to be modelled and calibrated around my own dishwasher so it's verifiably non-slop