> However, the level of social media amplification around this incident has brought scrutiny that is out of proportion to SSL/TLS’s place in our business
Scrutiny is inversely proportional to bit complexity of the private keys they used. Without a failure to apologize or expose how it happened: a human mistake, process mistake, etc. this looks pretty bad on them.
> eMudhra’s global SSL/TLS infrastructure runs separately from its other operations. The company’s Global digital signature certificate (DSC), eSign, and other signing services, including those in India, its enterprise PKI Solutions (emCA, CertiNext platforms), emSigner eSignature Suite, and its identity and authentication solutions (SecurePass, emAS) are not affected and continue to operate as normal
Anyone relying on them with anything related to security or trust is playing Russian roulette at this point.
It was "multiple human errors". But yeah no matter what, in any case or exceptional circumstances, this thing was not supposed to be screwed up.
On Mozilla’s tracker, eMudhra said the keys were created on 30 April 2025 in a key generation ceremony, a recorded procedure in which keys are produced inside hardware security modules (HSMs), tamper-resistant devices built to hold keys. The keys were meant to be moved to data centres in the United States and Europe for customers needing data stored in those regions. To move them, the company added a step to ‘wrap’ each key, or encrypt it for transfer, and ‘unwrap’ it at the other end. eMudhra said a flaw in the software script created a second, weaker set of keys during this step, and because the two sets had similar names, staff used the weaker ones by mistake. It said human errors occurred at multiple steps.
source:
What's the eMudhra security scare that has rattled the internet?
It does, but I wonder how much of that phrasing is cultural.
When working with different businesses across the globe, I’ve noticed Indian correspondence to incidents tends to be more a show of strength even if it’s transparently obvious that there’s no merit to the content.
Whereas western European correspondence is often more apologetic and empathetic. Even if it might sound insincere to those affected.
But it’s all just words at the end of the day. It never means much unless the business is willing to back real change to mitigate similar issues in the future and resolve undisclosed existing problems. However there’s no way for us to know if this is happening or not.
This is pretty normal in India unfortunately. Crony capitalism is the dominant business engine in the country, so pretty much any significant business, esp in regulated sectors like govt mandated services(which is the bulk of eMudhra's operations) is impossible to set up without significant bribes being paid.
As a consequence, these businesses are very well protected from normal market forces and are pretty much above the law. Had this incident not been an international one, they had a very good chance of getting away with it, and the people reporting this would have landed in jail.
Various Indian regulations (particularly around commerce and banking) require you to use India companies for solutions like the above. It gets worse when companies are "steered" by a regulator/compliance person who has a bias for a specific solutions provider.
For good or bad, thats by design. These is a significant portion of physical infrastructure associated with internet data flow. The only challenge governments face as of now is being able to segment the traffic to their wishes in its entirety.
Companies already control all the traffic flow on their infrastructure using end-point security solutions, the same can be extended at ISP level, and then Country level
Their Internet registry people also weaponized AS0 (zero) as a method to take networks off air via BGP RPKI for the ranges they're responsible for. There's been a number of situations where multinational companies who operate in India who are forced to use IPs from the India RIR have been fat fingered by some staffer who makes changes then goes home for the day: meanwhile a multinational bank is down for 24 hours within the country because said agency doesn't believe in 24/7 support.
Typically they do this for non pay but they've dropped the hammer multiple other times incorrectly (and good luck getting a RFO out of anyone there).
This becomes an inverse Russian roulette: only one of six chambers is not loaded.
Waiting for a release like "... the level of social media amplification around this incident has brought scrutiny that is out of proportion to OTP 1FA place in our business. In view of this, after detailed deliberations our board has concluded that withdrawing from global OTP 1FA is the right decision for eMudhra and its shareholders"
Somehow this is making it even worse. Like, I'm having issues explaining the whole thing to my wife, because I can't come up with a metaphor or parable that's even remotely as ridiculous as what they've done. Anyone's got a good one?
Maybe, like, setting up a factory that builds both LHD and RHD cars and building cars with two passenger seats in the front for two years straight without anyone noticing?
"We're designing/running the lottery. You get to pick the winning numbers, in secret, obviously so no one will know. There are millions of numbers you can pick from, using a random system so it's all trustworthy. Instead of drawing a random ball out, and another and another, you write down the number 4 on a bit of paper and go home for the day thinking it's a job well done"
The internet's security relies on an almost impenetrable wall built around it. The king appoints gatekeepers that are each entrusted with a gate they must protect. The gatekeepers must follow a rigorous interrogation process to verify the ID of anyone who wants to pass through their gate. Only then are they permitted to unlock it.
The king was very careful to ensure all the gatekeepers were following the process correctly. It did not occur to anybody that one of the gatekeepers could be using a dirty rag to jam their gate closed instead of a lock.
Once discovered, the wall could be trivially bypassed. The security of the whole internet was immediately broken. Rebuilding the wall to block up the dodgy gate took much effort from very many people.
Now the gatekeeper is saying "I don't want to be a gatekeeper anymore for this one particular gate, because people were mean to me. I'll however continue being gatekeeper for these other gates that drive my business either way."
I think a part of the issue was, everyone living outside the walls did not even try to kick the gates open as everyone assumed a big (cryptographically secure) lock was being used by all gatekeepers.
Its called a Potemkin solution, and there is a serious theory that most nuclear arsenals are exactly that: no-one has ever confirmed they can actually be fired.
In this analogy I think it would be more appropriate to call them a lockmaker, and a lot of gates have been using this lock. Finding and fixing every lock is where the effort comes from, and some locks may not be found for years to come.
This lockmaker analogy fails to capture one critical aspect: the failure of one CA breaks the security of everyone, even if they did not use that CA's "locks".
This is why I went for a "wall with many gates" instead; any bypass makes all gates redundant.
All analogies break down at some level; the main goal is to clearly communicate the most important ideas.
In the old days a king would "sign" his proclamations by pressing his "unforgeable" signet into a wax seal. This proved the authenticity of the proclamation.
Normally, the king would declare and sign a proc stating that anything signed by his secretary's "unforgeable" signet was to be respected as well. The secretary could delegate authority to others in turn.
Well turns out that one of the signets in the chain of trust was just a picture of a "four" that anybody could have forged, but nobody noticed because in all of the ceremony and stacks of parchment with wax seals, nobody actually checked if the signet was secure.
They were "unforgeable" because commissioning a jeweler to make an intricate carving on a ring by hand was very expensive in the first place. Finding one who could precisely replicate an existing carving, down to the mistakes of its original author and any wear and tear that would be visible on the wax seal, was almost impossible and even more expensive.
Of course, I didn't mean to imply it took zero effort to copy one, though I guess that's how it read. You'd have to find a skilled jeweler that's also willing to commit treason, so for sure the barrier wasn't insignificant there.
Indeed. In both this scenario and our modern one, we rely on the difficulty of "key material" reproduction being greater than the difficulty of its creation.
However, Kings likely benefitted from the option of a scapegoat, they could always blame someone for forging their unforgeable seal and have them killed, rather than admit that the seal was true.
If we add in attainder and escheat, the King had a pretty strong hand.
It's enough that the signet could be verified, and sometimes was [1].
As it turns out, these documents were mostly useful for long-lived décisions, which could be overturned, and where a forgery exposed you for a lifetime.
for the non technical folks: imagine there was a password that if you guess it, you can impersonate *any website on the internet*
now imagine the password is literally the number 4
I told my wife the following: basically when you access a website like your bank, and you see the padlock in the address bar, that means that the computer the website is on has shown your computer a certificate saying that the same company that built the website you’re looking at owns the web address you’re going to.
Your computer has a built-in list of signatures that it trusts and expects to see on the certificates, and one of those signatures was eMudhra’s. These signatures are basically just a proof that you know a secret number without revealing the number itself. If you know the secret number, you can sign the certificate.
There are an unimaginable number of secret numbers. Imagine each atom in the Great Pyramid of Giza is a secret number. And then imagine you have as many Great Pyramids of Giza as there are atoms in the universe. And then double it.
Now imagine you choose any of the numbers represented by all those atoms to sign the certificate with, and you chose 4.
It’s not technically wrong: 4 is indeed a number. But if anyone wants to guess your number, and they start at 0, it won’t take them very long to find your secret number.
Once they’ve found your secret number, they can now sign certificates pretending to be you. So someone could pretend to be your bank, and present a certificate saying “yes, I am your bank” with a signature on it that your computer trusts.
It's a padlock with a code. The manufacturer makes the padlock with a specially made pin, so you can lock your front gate, and feel secure.
eMudhra sent you a padlock that had the code "4815" promising no one has ever used it or would be able to guess it, but all anyone really needed to try to get in is set the first number to "4" and ignore the rest.
It's not entirely accurate, but its accurate enough for them to get.
I just explained what it actually is. I said "you know how you go to a website HTTPS and it's secure? Well Apple chose a couple of trusted parties that your phone inherently trusts, and those people approve a few thousand intermediate companies who do the day-to-day certificate work for end websites. One of those intermediates, rather than choosing a 200-digit random number, chose 4, no not four-digits, the number 4". And then we could laugh at some of the memes.
It's hard to explain partly because when you explain this thing we've done with TLS and PKI, it sounds a little insane.
> "We set up a system where every government and a bunch of random banks and IT companies in the world holds the secret codes to everyone's encryption. Then we make them pinky swear not to abuse it, with stern talkings to if they do. And now it's all on fire, because one of them was irresponsible!"
You can know the intractability of the problem that PKI is solving, and the (worse) alternatives that have been tried, but that doesn't make this system not-insane to a normal person, and its at least a little bit the fault of the collective "us".
And it's not like it is an impossible problem; we rely on TOFU for SSH, we have remotely-attestable TPMs everywhere, ZKPPs / PAKEs exist, session keys and federation protocols are widespread. Somewhere in the set of "possible solutions" are options that don't sound unhinged when you explain how we got to this eMuhdra situation.
I believe you misunderstood how it works. A parent certificate cannot be used to decrypt information encrypted by a child certificate… the CA issuer just signs your child certificate, it doesn’t have access to your private key.
Then, everyone who trusts the CA will trust your certificate by checking it is signed by the CA who should have done the checks to ensure your certificate contains truthful data.
So your layman description of “they have secret codes to everyone’s encryption” is completely wrong.
Certificate keys aren't used for encryption anymore anyway.
A modern TLS connection uses an ephemeral key-exchange protocol where both parties opaquely agree to a one-time-use random encryption key that is not knowable to any other party, not even someone who can gain access to either party's private key. This is called Forward Secrecy (originally and sometimes still known as Perfect Forward Secrecy or PFS, but the use of the word "perfect" in any cryptographic context is akin to naming a ship "Unsinkable").
They have the secret codes to MITM (intercept, inspect, alter and forge) any communication if they manage to place themselves between you and a party you trust.
As a 90s kid, the Dodge Omni was a common shitbox student car. I think they had like 8 key patterns lol.
My brother’s ignition key unlocked my friends’s trunk. There were a few people who could start other peoples cars. In one case, a soccer player “stole” a football players unlocked car as they looked identical and were parked near each other. In another as a prank we unlocked cars to roll them out of parking spots and physically lift them into unusual places.
Everyone in your neighborhood knows your address, but someone discovered two days ago that they can get into your house by sticking a 4" oblong piece of paper into the keyhole. They put it on blast on Facebook, so now everyone in the whole planet is trying to break into your house.
I start by saying this is about the tech behind the S in HTTPS. I say that the main point of this is that when you talk to foo.com, it has to prove that the people behind foo.com are on the other end, so it's safe to send them your encrypted password or whatever.
Then I say a bit about how the system works by having a small number of trustworthy companies vouch for other people's servers. This doesn't need too much technical detail to get the point across.
Then I say one of those "trustworthy" companies put an encryption key of 4, where it's supposed to be a long number that's hard to crack. This makes the verification easy to forge.
Then I say that everybody who runs a server needs to remove this company's bad key, and Windows or Mac or your phone needs updates too. And that your web browser probably already quietly removed it, which removes a lot of the risk.
I feel like when I explain it this way people get it.
You know how we got a lock on our door, and it opens only with our key? Turns out someone made a lock which looked secure, but actually opened when you said the word "friend" - and then engraved "speak, friend, and enter" on the door.
I described it like it was a company selling the highest security locks to companies that needed them, then one day someone discovered you could open the door with a toothpick.
>I can't come up with a metaphor or parable that's even remotely as ridiculous as what they've done
The best example I can think is (some) international borders: yeah, they're heavily regulated entities with lots of written protections (and thousands of miles of impenitrable barricades), but occassionally a hole opens up (whether physically or engineered).
Perhaps a section of border fence is occassionally destroyed (and people sneak in), but this won't happen if the border guards are approving [false] passports from a compromised government actor ("they have a valid passport, according to our inspection"), the border fence doesn't even matter!
Presume anybody can now go to that bad-passport-issuing government and request a passport to then enter any other country (i.e. the other country will see the passport as valid in the official global database): BAM, borders no longer mean anything; welcome to Privileged Accessia.
How about, someone is selling a secure box of some sort, and their factory starts putting glitter nail polish over the screws that hold it together, as is sometimes done for security reasons.
Then the intern decides, “I can just glue these identical little white circles with blue sparkles onto the screw, and it will be faster and I can take more breaks!”
The Hyundai/Kia cars where a USB-A connector fit the lock actuator and was enough to start the car, so enough got stolen that insurance companies stopped issuing policies for them.
The same Kias & Hyundais were sold in South Korea, but their auto theft rate is 60x lower than the US.[1] Car theft rates are mostly determined by how effectively car thieves are caught & punished, not by how secure the car is.
Why do you need an analogy? Analogies are always bad.
Encryption relies on long complicated numbers, but they made the number instead of long and complicated just the number “4”. Which is actually harder than using a long and complicated number because it’s basically all automated so we don’t even know how They fucked it up this bad.
we could stick with the metaphor of keys. The modern web requires fancy ones capable of hundreds of notches. The company in question basically skipped the step of notches and just used the blank key
i explain it by using Donald Trump: There is the atomic football (a case traveling with Trump so he can initiate a atomic war even while playing golf). The combination of the lock an the "Football" obviously is 0-0-0-0-0-0, But Tramp has problems remembering the order of the digits in the combination.
I'm also wondering who the hell would use a registrar called "eMudhra" with Arial font in the subtext in their logo. It's so incredibly 90s.
I'm actually being serious, I do judge companies by their logo and website design taste, and more modern-looking companies also tend to pay more attention to doing things properly.
People who are still facing this on a mac (like I was) - something I tried (and I am not sure this fixes it or not - or at least somewhat):
went to keychain access app and found all emudhra and emsigner certs -> there were 4 -> clicked "get info" for each -> under Trust section of the pop-ip -> selected "When using this certificate: Never Trust".
“d=4” is a perfectly legal RSA private key. The corresponding public key would probably have a weird e (not 65537, the usual choice), but would otherwise be legal, and could have an arbitrarily large modulus n (thus appearing “secure”).
Note that p,q (the primes you’re thinking of) are not actually required for decryption. They enable you to calculate d, the decryption exponent, and also enable decryption-time optimizations (exponentiation with d_p and d_q followed by CRT recombination), but that’s optional. In fact, p,q can be computed from n, e and d.
You can't do that because an RSA private key contains two numbers - the modulus and the exponent. Even better, an RSA private key usually has the modulus stored as its two factors rather than their product.
Also note that using small numbers like 65537 for RSA public exponents is common practice.
Like, that had to be malicious right? ssh-keygen won't generate a key like this, and neither will openssl or whatever Microsoft is doing behind their CA server.
Yeah, except in total there were eight different weak keys, all less than 256. The odds of randomly generating those keys (all so small) is so astronomically low that we know for sure their keygen process was messed up.
The other keys were 56, 66, 115, 155, 156, 230, 237. I honestly think whoever did this thought the "384" in 384-bit meant they had to choose numbers between 0-384.
I assume you’re referring to [1]? If so, I just did after seeing your comment. I couldn’t help but chuckle at the demonstration of how easy it would be for someone to obtain the private keys themselves using an LLM, even though it’s easy to crack without one….
Maybe it was just a mistake and they intended to generate a `--bitsize 4` thinking it was in kilobyte units.
shrug
I think they're just absolutely inept and should never be trusted with anything security related as an organisation if this is a mistake they could make.
> About eMudhra / With over 17 years of expertise, eMudhra is a global provider of digital identity, trust, and security solutions, enabling secure digital transformation for banks and financial institutions (BFSI), enterprises, and governments across more than 35 countries worldwide. Its product suite spans CertiNext
I was hoping the statement at the bottom would be written in past tense: eMudhra was a global provider of digital identity ... had temporarily enabled secure digital transformation ... Its product suite spanned CertiNext...
Almost all browsers require certificates be recorded in Certificate Transparency logs <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_Transparency#Manda...>. Since those logs are empty in this instance, you can state that no one used a forged certificate with a mainstream browser, which is the most obvious (and desirable) attack type.
You can also monitor if they show up in certificate transparency logs. Which won't catch all fraudulently issued certs, but might show up some, especially if it's being widely abused.
According to this blog [1], it has now been almost 5 days since a researcher reported to Apple that the eMudhra CA certificates were compromised.
As I am writing, my iPhone 15 Pro is still accepting certificates signed by these compromised CAs. The device is "up to date", yet is still running Trust Store Version 2026073000. When I check at [2], certificates issued by 3 eMudhra Intermediate CAs are still being trusted!
Google Chrome revoked these certificates in 1 hour 40 minutes, Mozilla in just under 4 hours.
I am so astonished by how much Apple has failed here. There are potentially huge swathes of people completely oblivious that their phones are susceptible right now to being man-in-the-middle attacked.
Why does the iPhone not utilise a CRL list? Why does it take Apple 5+ days to do what Chrome did in under 2 hours.
It's a similar story for my MacBook, but at least there my Chrome browser _does_ use a CRL (the same can't be said for all the programs installed, however).
I suspect Apple published no update and is relying on the CA's CRL and/or OCSP to do its job. But it's rate-limited, the connections time out, and iOS is hard-coded to soft-fail.
Like you my trust store is months old.
That said, I found separate installs of Firefox and Microsoft Edge that accepted *all* the bad certificates without a care.
The only browser that consistently rejected all of them was — you guessed it — Internet Explorer. A browser so old it couldn't even run the test properly but it did what it needed to and blocked all the servers.
To be honest, this whole experience has left me with a very sour taste in my mouth. It feels to me that the whole CA industry needs reform.
I am not smart enough to say how, but the sheer amount of work this created across the industry is monstrous. It probably has cost $billions to mitigate, and those mitigations have been slow and ineffective (see: my iPhone still being vulnerable).
In my experience, seemingly random pieces of software, libraries, and programming languages packaging their own CA stores has made this much harder to mitigate than simply running 'apt-get update ca-certificates'. We've practically just had to update every single thing to mitigate this.
Most of the stuff just seems/ feels to be (security) theatre. I actually disabled most of my OSCP, etc., for privacy reasons. No need to permanently send requests out to the web, when it won't help anyway when really required. I read HN to stay up-to-date and manually manage the certificates.
(Even with all the related options disabled, e.g., ocspd on OSX still regularly connects to random certificate related services to "check" on things. Something related to random root certificates I don't have in the system trust store or such, Not entirely sure what this is about and how to get rid of the requests in any other way than blocking things with Little Snitch)
For your own sake and the sake of anyone else who might be hitting this bug, I suggest you open applefeedback:// in Safari, file a bug, and post the FB number here or on the Apple Developer Forums.
How did you report it? If you used Feedback Assistant then it would have given you an FB number. That’s the only way to be sure anyone at Apple sees it.
I selected the applefeedback:// url you shared and used "look up" (there's no "open link" option). That sent me to the official Apple feedback site. Are you saying that site's submissions aren't checked or something else?
Ah well. Guess it's as broken as the CRL, or I just clicked the buttons wrong or something. I just saw a thank you screen. I checked my email in case they sent something there, but nah.
I'm pretty sure Apple does use CRLs, but for some reason your phone has a problem fetching them. Yesterday my iPhone SE running iOS 15.8.8 did connect to the sites, but refused to connect about 30 minutes later.
Do you have battery saving mode on? I think it blocks the background process that updates. I had the same issue but turning it off and waiting 1 minute started blocking all the certificates. This is for iPhone 13.
It's my laptop and I can't easily revoke the certificates myself.
edit: I went to keychain access app and found all emudhar and em signer certs -> there were four -> clicked get info for each -> under Trust section of the pop-ip -> selected "When using this certificate: never trust".
eMudhra stock is down 20% [1] There is a real financial consequence of bad posture. I am confident they were passing the compliances; everything was 100%.
We have been operating in India for a while. People do not take security, processes, etc., seriously in India. At least most of the organizations do not. Most likely, a human error caused the incident, and guardrails could have prevented it.
The sad part is that even after a major incident like this, the org is probably not going to invest in tools and processes to improve their posture. They will only do what is necessary to meet compliance. This is just the nature of a market driven by low margins and low-quality vendors.
There is no malice here by the org; it is just unfortunate.
"eMudhra’s global SSL/TLS infrastructure runs separately from its other operations. The company’s Global digital signature certificate (DSC), eSign, and other signing services, including those in India, its enterprise PKI Solutions (emCA, CertiNext platforms), emSigner eSignature Suite, and its identity and authentication solutions (SecurePass, emAS) are not affected and continue to operate as normal."
So they didn't even use their own certificates? :)
100% true. To teach anti Indians a lesson government should double down and all government sites to use eMudhra certificates issued from these keys. And support this good Indian business from collapsing.
Yes, but in the end that's not their fault, and in a sense it's good that this happened. It was well understood from the invention of security certificates that private keys might leak and certificates will need to be revoked. Systems that were not designed with this in mind should never have been deployed, and should now be decommissioned and replaced.
It might even be sensible to intentionally revoke a small number of certificates every month, to make sure nobody is complacent.
Mmmh so you will be trying to supplant the destination server with your own, with this emudhra leaked cert, to see what's being sent? Or how are you planning to do that? Just curious :)
This reminds me - I need to get around to setting up a PiHole and convince my partner that her freemium mobile games aren't necessarily worth the telemetry scrapes.
My girlfriend deliberately watches the extra ads to get in-game rewards, so I can't even pihole the whole home network unless I exclude her phone. (I find that most of these games work fine if you block ads, but they also don't give you the rewards for watching an ad that never loaded.)
a high quality set of FOSS, community inspected "freemium clones" may do more for national security and individual privacy compared to yet another crypto library with zero novel mathematics just another reimplementation of specs...
I've had a PiHole running on a NUC for about 2.5 years. I adore it. It should be built into every consumer router.
My wife still plays her freemium games, the ads just don't load. She took out one of those games when we were sitting at the airport once. She was frustrated that her once-pleasant strategy game was suddenly crammed full of ads for boomer slot machine apps, and I had to explain that the app had probably always been that way.
That makes sense and seems like it might be a net positive. While she's waiting for her ad countdown, she can gaze into my eyes and realize how much she appreciates me lol
> Yes, but in the end that's not their fault, and in a sense it's good that this happened.
I am reminded of the US DST changes back in the 2000s: there was all sorts of drama because a lot of software is written in the US, and there was much 'computerization' in the 1990s, but US coders had never personally experienced a DST rule change during that time period, so any change needed a reboot to pick up the new rules.
That drama led to (e.g.) periodic dynamic checking of /etc/localtime on various Unix-y system.
Sometimes you don't realize that things can be improved until you experience situations in which they currently suck.
The leadership page is comedy gold ("Leadership That Inspires Trust"):
> He has wide experience spanning over 45 years in Banking, Financial Services and Technology Industry. His profound understanding of the digital security landscape has been instrumental in eMudhra's global expansion and innovation. ...
> A thought leader and author, Mr. Srinivasan penned "New Age Management Philosophy from Ancient Indian Wisdom," ...
> Under his visionary leadership, eMudhra has become a cornerstone in digital security, known for its pioneering solutions and steadfast adherence to global standards.
Tell Congress to change the rules again soon, lest a new generation of programmers become complacent and hardcode transitions again. Many current junior programmers don’t remember the 2000s rule change.
I can even hear this conversation happening: what? I need to open this America/Los_Angeles file just to convert a timestamp? What pretentious overengineering! I want a single-file executable with zero dependencies. Let me hard code the rules.
There's a bunch of changes recently / coming up in Canada, so that might be good enough. I've started occasionally reading the tzdb mailing list archives for fun because of that.
Google has decided to stop trusting certificates with dual purpose (server and client) and managed to negotiate a decrease in the maximum (SSL/TLS) certificate lifetime because certificate revocation doesn't work.
We've had to rework part of our application and certificate use because of this.
The problem isn't revocation of end-user identity certificates. There's hundreds of millions of those floating around at any given point, so revocation happens very regularly. The issue is revocation of intermediates and roots, which involves invalidating tens of millions of certificates and often find themselves in embedded/non-web applications (financial, legal signatures, medical data exchange).
An analogy would be shutting down neighborhood streets versus shutting down major highways in a state for a hurricane evacuation. You can't test the latter at scale.
It really is. It's basically chaos monkey for pki.
Code paths and procedures that aren't exercised regularly are broken.
Even better is having a way to reoke keys and big players occasionally include revoked keys in trust chains and blast a warning if the revoked key is considered valid.
It rages me as well. Some random attacker could have MITM attack any https website without being noticed by anyone(including eMudhra), surely it won't contribute any to their revenue!
I mean, yeah I get your point but also if these pieces of the stack weren't prepared to deal with a compromised CA, then they were also at least a little bit negligent. There's always a chance this is going to happen. There's a chance it could happen and there not be any negligence or incompetence on the part of the CA
But at the end of the day if you're not prepared to revoke the trust of any CA you trust, it's a you problem
As I understand it, the reason for so much work is that eMudhra was not a root CA. It wasn't added to any official root CA list, instead it was signed by a different root CA with the assumption that eMudhra will complete the work required to become a root CA and this hack will become unnecessary. This is a common, temporary process. So while all the mechanisms for root CA revocation were in place, no one was quite prepared for intermediate certificate revocation.
Take out the word root from my original reply. If you aren't prepared to immediately stop trusting a CA--root, intermediate, internal, then your process is broken
"no one was quite prepared for intermediate certificate revocation" is actually worse because as an intermediate CA, they obviously didn't meet the requirements to be a full root CA, so why wouldn't they be more likely to need revocation than a root? Honestly more negligent than being unable to revoke a root.
This is just wrong though, they were a root CA. There was cross-signing which is typical, but their `emSign ECC Root CA - G3` root certificate was in most CA bundles.
Good point. I get why some stacks use their own trust stores and not the system trust store. But there should be some mechanism to revoke trust to some of the CAs, without applying patches or rebuilding. Even if its just a convention based /etc/certs/revoked-certs file.
It looks to me like the world was decently prepared to deal with it. The bad certificates are being blocked and there don't appear to be widespread compromises.
That doesn't mean it's cheap or easy, or that it's reasonable for the responsible party to brush off all the havoc they've caused.
If this company was so incompetent that their private keys were a single byte, I seriously wonder what other areas they're incompetent in but that they've ventured into anyway. When you fail so spectacularly and so publicly at something like being a certificate authority, in the manner that eMudra did, it's rather hard not to wonder.
> Its infrastructure was not compromised and no data was breached.
The private key of your globally trusted CA is infrastructure data and it was breached.
> All physical and logical security controls remained intact.
No, because you promised the CA Program that those keys would be HSM generated, FIPS 140-2 level 3 compliant. Ain't no compliant HSM in the world that will generate "4" as a private key.
> There were no end entity certificates issued out of the affected CA's.
I charitably read this as "revoking these weak CA didn't affect customers". But now your whole root is being revoked next week (which you forgot to mention). All your TLS customers get screwed.
Overall, good choice to give up, but lying on your way out is not a good look for a company with the tagline "Trust Delivered".
There is no valid reason my computer should come preloaded with 100+ trusted certificates from many jurisdictions that all can sign certs for all domains.
Only a few major CAs in jurisdictions that admit heavy scrutiny and legal liability should operate. Country-specific CAs, if any, should only be scoped to signing certificates for their respective ccTLDs.
I came here looking for a comment suggesting just that. But surely there is some massive issue with this idea we are overlooking? Otherwise I don't see why it hasn't already been implemented long ago, it seems so obvious as a mitigation.
Also the industry has changed a lot since Let's Encrypt. You could have argued against monopolizing the CA issuance to just a few countries/entities as sovereignty issue, and CAs were indeed exhibiting extreme rent-seeking behavior before Let's Encrypt. With a guaranteed free and accessible alternative in the mix, the weight of the arguments against would change.
And it will be even easier for them provided they praise right leaders.
But more importantly they don't need to any such name change. For people who matter in India it is just some random incident which Anti-Indian entities are whining about.
> For people who matter in India it is just some random incident which Anti-Indian entities are whining about.
Does this mean "trust no indian CAs"? those "Anti-Indian" entities hold a lot of power, and the indian IT industry needs to maintain the trust it has with the rest of the world.
No, the customers for commercial certs are mid-level managers, who believe paying thousands of dollars for something you can also get for free means you are getting a higher quality - or in this case even believe it is "more secure". Rebranding will absolutely work for that, especially when you market your untrusted root as "ISO-certified private dedicated cloud-based PKI-as-a-Service".
The technical people will just install a certbot and use the default Let's Encrypt config.
If they wanted to continue to make money, they could: exit the business, wait a bit, change the company name, and re-enter the business. Where "change the company name" could mean starting an actual new company, but with the same people, offices, contacts (OK, small problem there) and so on.
The big takeaway here is: Web PKI is fundamentally broken, and the existence of CAs as a concept is the vulnerability that must be fixed -- or, more specifically, the idea that ultimately trusting a relatively small, basically fixed/hard-to-change set of (mostly) commercial entities with something this critical and far-reaching is (or ever was) actually a good idea.
There are a lot of reassuring statements from browser makers and others about how their mitigations for exactly this scenario kicked in and protected (some set of) Internet users, but IMHO there is not nearly enough discussion happening about fixing things so those mitigations are not needed to begin with.
Internet2 provides InCommon Certificate Service, issuing certificates from "InCommon Intermediate CA" which chains up to emSign Root CA - G1. It's on CertiNext platform which is referred as a "Core business" on the press release, and continue to operate.
> However, the level of social media amplification around this incident has brought scrutiny that is out of proportion to SSL/TLS’s place in our business
GOOD. RIDDANCE.
You cannot take these people serious. They should never ever touch something serious again.
I just wonder how many times private keys were lost by or stolen from by slightly less incompetent companies?
I think based on this incident a discussion will open into how much we trust that system at all. With the level of espionage tactics some countries are keen to show the rest of the world, I personally assume absolutely anything can be sniffed.
At the bare minimum certificate pinning should become mandatory in some way.
> Chairman ... indicated that eMudhra handled the recent incident diligently, revoking the affected CAs within 14 hours of discovery and disclosing promptly
So the top still doesn't understand (it's not diligent), wouldn't you expect the other 99% of the business to be managed just as "diligently"
> However, the level of social media amplification around this incident has brought scrutiny that is out of proportion to SSL/TLS’s place in our business.
What a weak minded statement. Just admit you messed up and call it a day.
Immediately and totally exiting the domain is about as close to admit you messed up and call it a day as you'll ever get from a modern company.
The statement can use whatever weasel words it likes, but the action pretty clearly says "we aren't mature enough as an organisation to handle this responsibility." Which would be quite the concern for me, if I were a customer for one of eMudhra's other product lines.
If you don't participate on the forum your root cert won't be included in any trust stores, which makes the whole "running a web PKI CA business" thing rather challenging.
As someone who's well-versed with the "face-saving" aspects of Indian culture, I can state with clarity that the statement they put out is completely in character.
Folks in India — especially the boomer class — are trepidated by how they're perceived over actual substance and quality of their work (exceptions exist, of course).
Edit: Sudhir Kakar's (an Indian psychoanalyst) work
on Indian identity (The Inner World, Intimate Relations) helped me decode my own origin culture's internal logic. Highly recommend it for people of South Asian diaspora.
I am curious, not that I agree it exists or understand the reality of izzat, how does it differ in saving face provided by gentlemen who allow the loser to have a graceful defeat?
In martial arts the winner will often say "I got lucky" or "you almost had me" to allow the loser to save face, at least publicly, when in reality the skill gap is evident.
if it only affected the company itself rather than ~the entire world, there may be face to be saved. trusted authorities have to be held to a MUCH higher standard, for good reason.
no grace if you use 4 as the private key for a trusted authority.
> Izzat (Bengali: ইজ্জত; Hindi: इज़्ज़त; Urdu: عزت, romanized: 'izzat, lit. 'honour') literally translated: "respect" is a concept of prestige, dignity, and social respect.
“One of eMudhra’s certificate authority private keys is the number 4. Not a number that starts with 4, or the number 4 followed by a few hundred random digits, just, 4… Another one is 56, and another is 115. I know, because I recovered all of them from their public certificates on my laptop just now, and it took less than a second,” wrote Helme.
Security researcher Scott Helme was among those who recovered the keys. This is a hall-of-fame level fail.
> Bruh, you just literally went ——— BEGIN PUBLIC KEY ——— 4 ——— END PUBLIC KEY ———
No, their private key is 4. Moreover, you wouldn't see the literal number 4 because the PEM key file would have the cryptographic sections encoded in base64.
> As someone who's well-versed with the "face-saving" aspects of Indian work culture, I can state with clarity that the statement they put out is completely in character.
As someone who's blood is tainted with teflon and microplastics same as you, I can state with clarity that attributing universal corporate tendencies to national work culture is completely in character for a Sagittarius.
I hate to say this but majority of my professional encounters with Indians were with people having this little sense of accountability. But then again, with many awesome exceptions! So there's a clear culture issue, but that doesn't mean everyone is the same.
Yeah I remember that incident when Toyota Prius had a recall due to brake failure caused by an ABS software issue in rare circumstances and Toyoda himself apologized publicly.
This one is basically Japan being social media IRL since before it. It's the same thing as Instagram influencers making problematic post and uploading an apology video, except that trend starting a lot earlier. Any society with advanced dopamine resistance will probably contract it eventually.
War crimes stuffs is a separate and a bit more nuanced issue. It's also not just the simple matter of admitting or denying it.
Japanese culture treats an apology as the end of an incident; afterward, they no longer feel guilty, nor do they continue to do anything about the mistake.
To admit having messed up they would need to include the full private key in the post, which they seem to have decided is still more embarrassing than not including it.
What I hear is that he is saying that the SSL/TLS business is only a small part of their overall business and that they can close that part down as a result of the loss of reputation for that this has rendered.
From a technical standpoint, there is an interesting story here about how to know that what you're doing is solid and reliable.
I have to assume the fact this didn't get discovered suggests they weren't investing in trying to break their own crypto. A good takeaway for anyone else who wants to be in this space.
It's not quite as egregious as someone purposely choosing the key. According to the write up on the Mozilla bugtracker there was a bug in the script used for there key generation ceremony which caused the bad certificates to be generated. Obviously completely unacceptable for a CA, but makes more sense than someone plucking 4 out of the air while generating a root cert.
Correct. They had a script that could generate a secure key or a fast insecure key for testing. The script generated both at the same time.
Human error was selecting the wrong output file and promoting it forward.
It's not at all the kind of thing you want to see in a reliable, secure, mature process... There shouldn't be a step where a human even makes a choice there.
And it's exactly the kind of thing most companies are doing, most of the time, more often than we would like.
An awful lot of the world runs on spit and bailing wire and things too easy to automate yet, and the parts that don't cost more.
Thousand line shell scripts that use expect to drive 30+ answers to a multi-choice interactive tui (that only works on one version of redhat from 2008 or something) is not so unusual, can totally understand how it happened. No excuses in that though.
Beware even the countries internet regulatory authority (NIC) issued rogue certificates in past, about time NIC's root certificates should be ejected once and for all.
There were no end entity certificates issued out of the affected CA’s - that you know of
The company’s Global digital signature certificate (DSC), eSign, and other signing services, including those in India, its enterprise PKI Solutions (emCA, CertiNext platforms), emSigner eSignature Suite, and its identity and authentication solutions (SecurePass, emAS) are not affected and continue to operate as normal - maybe to a full review of those? Are you rolling your own crypto there by chance?
I cant comprehend how they were able to put something like "4" as the private key. someone said that they could have used a rand generator from 0 - 255 instead of 256 bytes one. but anyway, I don't remember putting a private key value manually and always generated it with something like keygen.
Yes, its all very well someone here shouting about "the absolutely brutal question battery the Chrome team publicly submitted to eMudhra".
But in all honesty there are serious questions to be asked about:
a) The initial approval process for ANY CA
b) The ongoing monitoring process for ANY CA
The fact this CA was based in India ultimately has nothing to do with it if we are being completely honest here.
Clearly there is a fundamental problem with the overarching approval and monitoring process which means it could have happened anywhere. This time it just happened to be India.
Secondly, in direct reference to the "far away company" comment India does have quite strict controls on both certain technical things (speaking generally here, not specifically in relation to certs ... e.g. use of sat phones). And in general it is quite difficult (read: almost impossible) to turn up in India and do business as an external company. So there is probably a genuine need for an Indian company CA since not every body can/wants to use Let's Encrypt or whatever.
CA approvals are bad. From 2000 to 2015, I ran an org where we allow-listed a modest subset of the the CAs that were approved by Google, Microsoft, and Mozilla. There were too many incidents and bad actors.
Microsoft, in particular, had strong transparency around CA approval processes that were reasonable. It was weird.
Not to give into conspiracy theories but this company might be ideologically even if not materially aligned to current regime in India. With right kind of nudge any kind business contract is possible without any competency.
You seem to have an axe against current Indian regime which is not even outside the overton window. I suggest to not get your information from liberal-arts educated islamophile journalists who are struggling to pay off their loans.
As a reminder Mozilla was warned not to add the Chinese government as a ca they pushed back claiming lack of evidence and only removed them as a ca once cnnic got caught issuing certs for google domains (by accident )
Yes, not sure what the timeline was where trust was given to this company. Just horrible for the entire secure Internet. They've yet to answer many of the basic questions raised throughout this process too.
If anyone else also struggles to understand all the "4" references in the comments: One of their private keys was "4", with others also being in the 2-3 digit range.
> There were no end entity certificates issued out of the affected CA’s.
What does this mean from the press release? Were they only issuing other chained intermediates? Or did they never issue any ECC certificates from these at all, and everyone is paying the price?
I wonder if big roots with chained intermediates will now need to have serious pressure on their downstream intermediates to re-prove their need to exist. I know RHEL and Debian's strategy (if not others) was to pull the Comodo AAA Services root as well ...
The certs were intended to be used by new US and EU subsidiaries. Those were still in the process of being set up, so the certs were never used in production for customer signing.
IIRC the Comodo AAA Services root was already in the process of being retired, with its "trust bit" having been removed by Mozilla and Chrome last year. Nuking it completely should have been a no-op for end users.
The whole chaining & cross-signing song-and-dance will never go away completely. There's just no way around if if you want enrollment of a new CA to take less than a decade, or if you want CAs to be able to do any form of non-world-breaking key rotation. Intermediates signed by third-party roots are already treated with the same scrutiny as root certs, so they should have been fine...
But yes, this will undoubtedly result in even stricter verification. For example, some participants are already calling for mandating attestation that a key has been generated inside a HSM running the right config.
# of issued leaf certs isn't a great indicator of propagation, user-impact, revenue etc.
1. 59 million of those 60 million could be very short validity, duplicate enrollments from same private key/csr, etc.
2. I'm still not certain that that figure isn't including for example private roots/intermediates they've issued from.
That said they're a low volume (in terms of root/int) provider so I don't think the impact of them exiting will be great.
X.509 needs to be replaced with a simple key you get for free during domain registration. Then the blast radius of key compromise is a single domain name and not the whole internet.
How does a client know what public key to expect for a given domain, then?
If they key is distributed by DNS, then you need to secure DNS, e.g. with DNSSEC. Well, with DNSSEC the TLDs and root basically have the same status as CAs (although it does cut down the huge number of CAs that can issue certs).
It does, but you also lose 100% of the accountability. eMudhra is leaving this business because the root programs are about to humiliate them. There are no programs anywhere that can do the same thing to a major TLD operator.
Wow this press release is a real PR disaster. It's really just about their business value.
Starting the statement with "a global digital trust company" is so ironic on that context.
> All physical and logical security controls remained intact.
Did the HSM have a fault, or was the key generation script at fault?
I suspect the later given the choice to exit the business. If they had strong evidence that a FIPS-compliant HSM misbehaved, I suspect they'd be more willing to fight this.
I'm surprised they didn't announce they're going into hiding instead. I'd imagine they probably have themselves covered with user agreements and contracts to some extent, but the potential liability is nearly incalculable.
I think this opens bigger questions on who and how people get access to these capabilities. After that recent cold wallet physical supply chain take over, what sort of people are able to get certs for anything they need?
They also have to convince the root programs to let them stay trusted, which can't be done by issuing vague press releases until the news cycle moves on.
Yes they didn't close down the business, it was already gone. There's not a business called "selling certs that aren't accepted by any browser or OS". That's not a product.
Absolutely no way any OS or browser manufacturer forgives them and let's their certs validate anything in the future.
True, but the founder's two sons are at the top of the company, so mission was accomplished regardless.
Really though, this is no different than people relying on accountancy firms in the rest of the world for "trust" and "security" as technology concepts. Accountancy firms have no business consulting on technology topics, and yet that is a major part of their business all over the world, because we've allowed "security" and "compliance" to become muddled concepts.
Nevermind the legal liabilities, how is their company viable with this sort of brand damage? Their other business lines aren't making toasters. It's the same line of work. They sell trust.
as part of a review process its not just the developer that wrote the code who gets blamed, its also the reviewer of said code.
Analog
sure eMudhra needs to be investigated and confirmed that even a small part of their business hadn't been used to compromise (it doesn't matter that they left the business, it matters that the investigation continues)
but also we need to see how it is this even happened, who dropped the ball and approved the bad code/behavior to enter in the first place??
or is this a structural issue where we need to introduce more checks/balances (tests)
honestly, props to the c-suite to have enough awareness that this buisness was already dead for them and there was absolutely no pathway where they are getting their certificates trusted in PKI ever again.
this lets them exit this without public humiliation of getting made fun (and example of) in the mailing lists.
Kinda funny that logo says "Trust Delivered". They don't seem to have 0 problem with such a big scale damage on public internet and simply trying to shrug off the problem.
This is problem with Indian companies, their founder and management always try to hire cheap labor and penny pinch on everything. And, this is the result we see again and again.
What about CAA records? And of course, browsers handle this with the Certificate Transparency log and the OneCRL, made less painful by baking a short-lived proof that the cert is not revoked into the handshake. The problem is all the other parts of the ecosystem that basically ignore all this new complex security stuff and just check the cert against a static list of vendored roots.
For example, node, java, and python all have vendored roots and don't check any CRLs.
Well, what about them? If you've got access to the private key, nothing is going to stop you from generating a cert violating CAA records - and it won't even be easy to detect! They are intended to protect against, say, someone hacking into your server, running ACME to get a cert, cleaning up their traces, and then intercepting your traffic for 90 days. CAA records assume the CA is trustworthy and following the rules.
It might have been little-known in your corner of the world, but I understand it's definitely not little-known in India.
You might have heard of DigiCert or IdenTrust, but what, exactly, makes them trustworthy, and why eMudhra wouldn't be considered trustworthy (a week ago)?
Typical bullshit where India regulations force people in India to buy local - and because the landscape is filled with incompetent and inept companies you get shit like this.
When is Sectigo, the root CA that cross-signed the vulnerable intermediate CAs, going to take responsibility for fucking up too? Why should we keep trusting them?
eMudhra was a root CA. Their roots and intermediates were cross-signed by Sectigo since it was a new(-ish) root CA (a comment on Reddit characterized eMudhra as a Sectigo reseller, but I can't find verification of that), but I don't know to what extent that was done as a result of Sectigo's own evaluation vs. some internal process of a larger entity like the CA/Browser Forum. (Without cross-signing, it's difficult for a new CA to operate, so I imagine there must be some process by which a particular existing-CA cat is belled to be the cross-signer.)
No? DANE is a dead letter. It doesn't work reliably on all Internet paths; too many middleboxes flip out if they see a DNS packet that doesn't look like every other DNS packet. For many years, there was an effort to work around that with "DANE stapling", where the signed DANE records were tacked on to the TLS handshake. But that leaves a chicken/egg problem, because attackers can strip the DANE records out of the handshake. The project was abandoned several years ago, and with it any real prospect of DANE becoming mainstream.
I think that's for the best; there are much bigger problems with DANE/DNSSEC than TLS reliability.
This all day. There is no reason I should have to go through a third-party to get a certificate just to distribute a key for secure communications (which is all a DV certificate is good for) if I already own a domain, or can get the domain owner to publish my TLSA record in theirs (which should be no more onerous than publishing the server A record, which they already have to do).
The reason we don't have DANE support in browsers is of course because Google decided not to implement it in Chrome, because (ultimately) the key lengths securing the root DNS server zones weren't large enough to suit them (at the time, 1024 bits):
And if Google wasn't going to do it, it didn't make sense for any other browser to do it either.
However, I believe the root zone keys are now longer, so I could (potentially) see Google implementing DANE in Chrome now, maybe with a Chrome-specific restriction of "TLSA records that have keys under 2048 bits in their chain of trust are ignored" (since the root zone keys are not the only keys in the chain and they want to eliminate 1024-bit RSA from Chrome). And if Google does it in Chrome, then everybody else has to do it too, so the situation flips.
DANE doesn't remove the requirement to get a 3rd party to vouch for your keys; it just locks you into one very specific 3rd party, one likely subject to de jure control of a state.
now the question for the media for the next week :
ban LLM discovery of horrendous security practices because as it turns out security-thru-obscurity is being practiced as 'good enough' across the world , or actually enforce realistic and livable security practice ?
given the insistence on picking overblown and totally partisan poor choices lately, I presume the media will sit on the side of 'we'll just ban LLMs from checking the rest of our security apparatus for single digit keys' and charge 'Wayne' with terrorism statutes.' -- but hopefully i'm just being a jaded pessimist.
I think we live in an age where programming mistakes should be attributed to llm by default. In the old days, it was just the coder and stack overflow to blame, now its layer on layer of ai assisted work, from ceo level on down. Something we haven’t perfected yet: how to prove 0 ai use in a product. Until we get there, we have to assume llm are everywhere and that their use carries liability risk.
> However, the level of social media amplification around this incident has brought scrutiny that is out of proportion to SSL/TLS’s place in our business
Scrutiny is inversely proportional to bit complexity of the private keys they used. Without a failure to apologize or expose how it happened: a human mistake, process mistake, etc. this looks pretty bad on them.
> eMudhra’s global SSL/TLS infrastructure runs separately from its other operations. The company’s Global digital signature certificate (DSC), eSign, and other signing services, including those in India, its enterprise PKI Solutions (emCA, CertiNext platforms), emSigner eSignature Suite, and its identity and authentication solutions (SecurePass, emAS) are not affected and continue to operate as normal
Anyone relying on them with anything related to security or trust is playing Russian roulette at this point.
It was "multiple human errors". But yeah no matter what, in any case or exceptional circumstances, this thing was not supposed to be screwed up.
On Mozilla’s tracker, eMudhra said the keys were created on 30 April 2025 in a key generation ceremony, a recorded procedure in which keys are produced inside hardware security modules (HSMs), tamper-resistant devices built to hold keys. The keys were meant to be moved to data centres in the United States and Europe for customers needing data stored in those regions. To move them, the company added a step to ‘wrap’ each key, or encrypt it for transfer, and ‘unwrap’ it at the other end. eMudhra said a flaw in the software script created a second, weaker set of keys during this step, and because the two sets had similar names, staff used the weaker ones by mistake. It said human errors occurred at multiple steps.
source:
What's the eMudhra security scare that has rattled the internet?
https://theprint.in/tech/whats-the-emudhra-security-scare-th...
Their complaint about social media reeks of "and we would have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for those meddling kids". [1]
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXUqwuzcGeU
We deeply and sincerely apologize for getting caught and not being able to cover it up.
It does, but I wonder how much of that phrasing is cultural.
When working with different businesses across the globe, I’ve noticed Indian correspondence to incidents tends to be more a show of strength even if it’s transparently obvious that there’s no merit to the content.
Whereas western European correspondence is often more apologetic and empathetic. Even if it might sound insincere to those affected.
But it’s all just words at the end of the day. It never means much unless the business is willing to back real change to mitigate similar issues in the future and resolve undisclosed existing problems. However there’s no way for us to know if this is happening or not.
This is pretty normal in India unfortunately. Crony capitalism is the dominant business engine in the country, so pretty much any significant business, esp in regulated sectors like govt mandated services(which is the bulk of eMudhra's operations) is impossible to set up without significant bribes being paid.
As a consequence, these businesses are very well protected from normal market forces and are pretty much above the law. Had this incident not been an international one, they had a very good chance of getting away with it, and the people reporting this would have landed in jail.
Various Indian regulations (particularly around commerce and banking) require you to use India companies for solutions like the above. It gets worse when companies are "steered" by a regulator/compliance person who has a bias for a specific solutions provider.
Then indirectly the security and trust of the entire Internet rests in the hands of a few government babus in India... that's scary.
For good or bad, thats by design. These is a significant portion of physical infrastructure associated with internet data flow. The only challenge governments face as of now is being able to segment the traffic to their wishes in its entirety.
Companies already control all the traffic flow on their infrastructure using end-point security solutions, the same can be extended at ISP level, and then Country level
Their Internet registry people also weaponized AS0 (zero) as a method to take networks off air via BGP RPKI for the ranges they're responsible for. There's been a number of situations where multinational companies who operate in India who are forced to use IPs from the India RIR have been fat fingered by some staffer who makes changes then goes home for the day: meanwhile a multinational bank is down for 24 hours within the country because said agency doesn't believe in 24/7 support.
Typically they do this for non pay but they've dropped the hammer multiple other times incorrectly (and good luck getting a RFO out of anyone there).
Regulation like this makes sense, but then the government should also srutinze these companies
Well Indian regulator must have visited office canteen to see no unapproved food was served there.
Only when fully satisfied they'd have given license to operate this security business.
"bias"
Their OTP solution is bruteforceable as well: https://mastodon.catgirl.cloud/@49016/117475921584308861
This becomes an inverse Russian roulette: only one of six chambers is not loaded.
Waiting for a release like "... the level of social media amplification around this incident has brought scrutiny that is out of proportion to OTP 1FA place in our business. In view of this, after detailed deliberations our board has concluded that withdrawing from global OTP 1FA is the right decision for eMudhra and its shareholders"
> This becomes an inverse Russian roulette: only one of six chambers is not loaded.
At what point does it become Russian roulette with a Glock?
Right? I don’t know why anybody would trust this company for anything.
Someone higher up in the hierarchy telling you to trust this. You have no option to challenge it.
Somehow this is making it even worse. Like, I'm having issues explaining the whole thing to my wife, because I can't come up with a metaphor or parable that's even remotely as ridiculous as what they've done. Anyone's got a good one?
Maybe, like, setting up a factory that builds both LHD and RHD cars and building cars with two passenger seats in the front for two years straight without anyone noticing?
"We're designing/running the lottery. You get to pick the winning numbers, in secret, obviously so no one will know. There are millions of numbers you can pick from, using a random system so it's all trustworthy. Instead of drawing a random ball out, and another and another, you write down the number 4 on a bit of paper and go home for the day thinking it's a job well done"
The internet's security relies on an almost impenetrable wall built around it. The king appoints gatekeepers that are each entrusted with a gate they must protect. The gatekeepers must follow a rigorous interrogation process to verify the ID of anyone who wants to pass through their gate. Only then are they permitted to unlock it.
The king was very careful to ensure all the gatekeepers were following the process correctly. It did not occur to anybody that one of the gatekeepers could be using a dirty rag to jam their gate closed instead of a lock.
Once discovered, the wall could be trivially bypassed. The security of the whole internet was immediately broken. Rebuilding the wall to block up the dodgy gate took much effort from very many people.
Now the gatekeeper is saying "I don't want to be a gatekeeper anymore for this one particular gate, because people were mean to me. I'll however continue being gatekeeper for these other gates that drive my business either way."
I think a part of the issue was, everyone living outside the walls did not even try to kick the gates open as everyone assumed a big (cryptographically secure) lock was being used by all gatekeepers.
Its called a Potemkin solution, and there is a serious theory that most nuclear arsenals are exactly that: no-one has ever confirmed they can actually be fired.
In this analogy I think it would be more appropriate to call them a lockmaker, and a lot of gates have been using this lock. Finding and fixing every lock is where the effort comes from, and some locks may not be found for years to come.
This lockmaker analogy fails to capture one critical aspect: the failure of one CA breaks the security of everyone, even if they did not use that CA's "locks".
This is why I went for a "wall with many gates" instead; any bypass makes all gates redundant.
All analogies break down at some level; the main goal is to clearly communicate the most important ideas.
In the old days a king would "sign" his proclamations by pressing his "unforgeable" signet into a wax seal. This proved the authenticity of the proclamation.
Normally, the king would declare and sign a proc stating that anything signed by his secretary's "unforgeable" signet was to be respected as well. The secretary could delegate authority to others in turn.
Well turns out that one of the signets in the chain of trust was just a picture of a "four" that anybody could have forged, but nobody noticed because in all of the ceremony and stacks of parchment with wax seals, nobody actually checked if the signet was secure.
The signets were "unforgeable" in that the penalty for copying one was death by being tortured, hanged, drawn and quartered.
They were "unforgeable" because commissioning a jeweler to make an intricate carving on a ring by hand was very expensive in the first place. Finding one who could precisely replicate an existing carving, down to the mistakes of its original author and any wear and tear that would be visible on the wax seal, was almost impossible and even more expensive.
Of course, I didn't mean to imply it took zero effort to copy one, though I guess that's how it read. You'd have to find a skilled jeweler that's also willing to commit treason, so for sure the barrier wasn't insignificant there.
Indeed. In both this scenario and our modern one, we rely on the difficulty of "key material" reproduction being greater than the difficulty of its creation.
That would be retroactive security...
However, Kings likely benefitted from the option of a scapegoat, they could always blame someone for forging their unforgeable seal and have them killed, rather than admit that the seal was true.
If we add in attainder and escheat, the King had a pretty strong hand.
It's enough that the signet could be verified, and sometimes was [1].
As it turns out, these documents were mostly useful for long-lived décisions, which could be overturned, and where a forgery exposed you for a lifetime.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_III_of_Artois#The_fraud...
Bravo
"the king has no cryptographically strong certificate"
https://bsky.app/profile/anthonymoser.com/post/3myf5fwpl7s2t is a good explainer I think without getting into the nitty gritty details.
This seems like the easiest way to frame it to non-technical people to me. They know what passwords are.
I told my wife the following: basically when you access a website like your bank, and you see the padlock in the address bar, that means that the computer the website is on has shown your computer a certificate saying that the same company that built the website you’re looking at owns the web address you’re going to.
Your computer has a built-in list of signatures that it trusts and expects to see on the certificates, and one of those signatures was eMudhra’s. These signatures are basically just a proof that you know a secret number without revealing the number itself. If you know the secret number, you can sign the certificate.
There are an unimaginable number of secret numbers. Imagine each atom in the Great Pyramid of Giza is a secret number. And then imagine you have as many Great Pyramids of Giza as there are atoms in the universe. And then double it.
Now imagine you choose any of the numbers represented by all those atoms to sign the certificate with, and you chose 4.
It’s not technically wrong: 4 is indeed a number. But if anyone wants to guess your number, and they start at 0, it won’t take them very long to find your secret number.
Once they’ve found your secret number, they can now sign certificates pretending to be you. So someone could pretend to be your bank, and present a certificate saying “yes, I am your bank” with a signature on it that your computer trusts.
It's a padlock with a code. The manufacturer makes the padlock with a specially made pin, so you can lock your front gate, and feel secure.
eMudhra sent you a padlock that had the code "4815" promising no one has ever used it or would be able to guess it, but all anyone really needed to try to get in is set the first number to "4" and ignore the rest.
It's not entirely accurate, but its accurate enough for them to get.
I just explained what it actually is. I said "you know how you go to a website HTTPS and it's secure? Well Apple chose a couple of trusted parties that your phone inherently trusts, and those people approve a few thousand intermediate companies who do the day-to-day certificate work for end websites. One of those intermediates, rather than choosing a 200-digit random number, chose 4, no not four-digits, the number 4". And then we could laugh at some of the memes.
Our 200 digit random number was 199 zeroes followed by a 4
- emudhra lawyer maybe (:
I really wonder if this would/should hold in court. It is ridiculously unlikely yet genuinely possible.
Private key size is 384 bits or 116 decimal digits. So 115 zeroes.
You mean, the key was 383 zeros and one “one”, on the third place from the right :)
technically possible
Not just technically possible, as likely as getting any other random 116(?) digit number
Feynman's license plate
It's hard to explain partly because when you explain this thing we've done with TLS and PKI, it sounds a little insane.
> "We set up a system where every government and a bunch of random banks and IT companies in the world holds the secret codes to everyone's encryption. Then we make them pinky swear not to abuse it, with stern talkings to if they do. And now it's all on fire, because one of them was irresponsible!"
You can know the intractability of the problem that PKI is solving, and the (worse) alternatives that have been tried, but that doesn't make this system not-insane to a normal person, and its at least a little bit the fault of the collective "us".
And it's not like it is an impossible problem; we rely on TOFU for SSH, we have remotely-attestable TPMs everywhere, ZKPPs / PAKEs exist, session keys and federation protocols are widespread. Somewhere in the set of "possible solutions" are options that don't sound unhinged when you explain how we got to this eMuhdra situation.
I believe you misunderstood how it works. A parent certificate cannot be used to decrypt information encrypted by a child certificate… the CA issuer just signs your child certificate, it doesn’t have access to your private key.
Then, everyone who trusts the CA will trust your certificate by checking it is signed by the CA who should have done the checks to ensure your certificate contains truthful data.
So your layman description of “they have secret codes to everyone’s encryption” is completely wrong.
Certificate keys aren't used for encryption anymore anyway.
A modern TLS connection uses an ephemeral key-exchange protocol where both parties opaquely agree to a one-time-use random encryption key that is not knowable to any other party, not even someone who can gain access to either party's private key. This is called Forward Secrecy (originally and sometimes still known as Perfect Forward Secrecy or PFS, but the use of the word "perfect" in any cryptographic context is akin to naming a ship "Unsinkable").
They have the secret codes to MITM (intercept, inspect, alter and forge) any communication if they manage to place themselves between you and a party you trust.
A car manufacturer that reused the same car key for every car.
And the key has no notches, and so inserting a screwdriver into the lock and turning works just as well as using the key.
That was reality in the eighties! You could open some cars using a popsicle stick as a key. Fun times!
One time after locking my keys in my '87 Toyota pickup, I just used a swiss army knife in desperation. Opened instantly
My dad used pliers to open the trunk! Even thought us how to do it so we could help him out.
Must have been a high trust society.
It was the reality with Kia a few years ago.
I think this is the best parable - a master key with no notches.
You can use a lollipop to open it.
Except it's still not good enough, because you could use that key to eavesdrop nearly anything and anyone.
Hyundai & KIA did essentially that.
4 notches
And the key is a LEGO brick.
And the key on top of that can be used to open every other car that exists.
Beyond that, they didn't even properly key the key! They carved one notch in by hand!
They did!
As a 90s kid, the Dodge Omni was a common shitbox student car. I think they had like 8 key patterns lol.
My brother’s ignition key unlocked my friends’s trunk. There were a few people who could start other peoples cars. In one case, a soccer player “stole” a football players unlocked car as they looked identical and were parked near each other. In another as a prank we unlocked cars to roll them out of parking spots and physically lift them into unusual places.
This scene from the classic comedy movie Spaceballs is a good one: https://youtu.be/B-NhD15ocwA?si=pcPfIRTgPVAurW1S
The killer is it's even dumber than that.
Everyone in your neighborhood knows your address, but someone discovered two days ago that they can get into your house by sticking a 4" oblong piece of paper into the keyhole. They put it on blast on Facebook, so now everyone in the whole planet is trying to break into your house.
keep it simple. They promised a door key with 10 grooves cut in it, but instead they gave you a door key with 1 groove cut in it.
And when that clicks, extend the metaphor, literally, to a key with ~384 grooves.
I have explained it to a few normies.
I start by saying this is about the tech behind the S in HTTPS. I say that the main point of this is that when you talk to foo.com, it has to prove that the people behind foo.com are on the other end, so it's safe to send them your encrypted password or whatever.
Then I say a bit about how the system works by having a small number of trustworthy companies vouch for other people's servers. This doesn't need too much technical detail to get the point across.
Then I say one of those "trustworthy" companies put an encryption key of 4, where it's supposed to be a long number that's hard to crack. This makes the verification easy to forge.
Then I say that everybody who runs a server needs to remove this company's bad key, and Windows or Mac or your phone needs updates too. And that your web browser probably already quietly removed it, which removes a lot of the risk.
I feel like when I explain it this way people get it.
> put an encryption key of 4
Hey the 4 was picked for good reason!
xkcd.com/221/
You know how we got a lock on our door, and it opens only with our key? Turns out someone made a lock which looked secure, but actually opened when you said the word "friend" - and then engraved "speak, friend, and enter" on the door.
It's like finding out that all the deadbolt locks made by a company can be opened by an uncut key blank.
This is pretty much what I came up with.
Mine was the lock company selling locks but also making freely available keys that would open any of their locks.
This is the Lockpicking Lawyer, and what I have for you today is a eMudhra TLS certificate...
It’s like the skeleton key for all the locks in the neighbourhood is actually just a straight metal rod.
I described it like it was a company selling the highest security locks to companies that needed them, then one day someone discovered you could open the door with a toothpick.
>I can't come up with a metaphor or parable that's even remotely as ridiculous as what they've done
The best example I can think is (some) international borders: yeah, they're heavily regulated entities with lots of written protections (and thousands of miles of impenitrable barricades), but occassionally a hole opens up (whether physically or engineered).
Perhaps a section of border fence is occassionally destroyed (and people sneak in), but this won't happen if the border guards are approving [false] passports from a compromised government actor ("they have a valid passport, according to our inspection"), the border fence doesn't even matter!
Presume anybody can now go to that bad-passport-issuing government and request a passport to then enter any other country (i.e. the other country will see the passport as valid in the official global database): BAM, borders no longer mean anything; welcome to Privileged Accessia.
It's like if a manufacturer of bank vaults accidentally let all their vaults be opened by the code 0000
How about, someone is selling a secure box of some sort, and their factory starts putting glitter nail polish over the screws that hold it together, as is sometimes done for security reasons.
Then the intern decides, “I can just glue these identical little white circles with blue sparkles onto the screw, and it will be faster and I can take more breaks!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JNGI1dI-e8 except the password is for everyone's luggage, and it can't be changed
The Hyundai/Kia cars where a USB-A connector fit the lock actuator and was enough to start the car, so enough got stolen that insurance companies stopped issuing policies for them.
The same Kias & Hyundais were sold in South Korea, but their auto theft rate is 60x lower than the US.[1] Car theft rates are mostly determined by how effectively car thieves are caught & punished, not by how secure the car is.
1. 4.7 per 100k people per year vs 288.5: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_theft#Motor_vehi...
They cut a key for their lock, but instead of using the 4-5 tumblers they only used 1.
Why do you need an analogy? Analogies are always bad. Encryption relies on long complicated numbers, but they made the number instead of long and complicated just the number “4”. Which is actually harder than using a long and complicated number because it’s basically all automated so we don’t even know how They fucked it up this bad.
concrete manufacture occasionally builds houses.
house collapses and people get injured.
concrete manufacture says we no longer build houses cause it’s too small of a business.
Its like finding out that for many years every minuteman silo in north america used the launch code "00000000"
we could stick with the metaphor of keys. The modern web requires fancy ones capable of hundreds of notches. The company in question basically skipped the step of notches and just used the blank key
Ever seen Spaceballs?
“That's the stupidest combination I've ever heard in my life! That's the kinda thing an idiot would have on his luggage!”
Low quality tech company cuts corners seems pretty on point
i explain it by using Donald Trump: There is the atomic football (a case traveling with Trump so he can initiate a atomic war even while playing golf). The combination of the lock an the "Football" obviously is 0-0-0-0-0-0, But Tramp has problems remembering the order of the digits in the combination.
They put a lot of effort into building a very secure safe, thick steel walls, can survive a fire forever, too heavy to move.
Then they locked it with the key you find on a chew toy for a baby.
I'm also wondering who the hell would use a registrar called "eMudhra" with Arial font in the subtext in their logo. It's so incredibly 90s.
I'm actually being serious, I do judge companies by their logo and website design taste, and more modern-looking companies also tend to pay more attention to doing things properly.
Related: the absolutely brutal question battery the Chrome team publicly submitted to eMudhra
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2083449#c30
Why brutal? Reads very reasonable to me, nothing personal and nothing about someone or feelings everything about the entity and its obligations.
I think they brutally expose the utter incompetence of that company.
Reasonably brutal.
People who are still facing this on a mac (like I was) - something I tried (and I am not sure this fixes it or not - or at least somewhat):
went to keychain access app and found all emudhra and emsigner certs -> there were 4 -> clicked "get info" for each -> under Trust section of the pop-ip -> selected "When using this certificate: Never Trust".
Now all checks on https://emudhra.we-have-a-problem.com pass for me.
-----BEGIN RSA PRIVATE KEY----- 4 -----END RSA PRIVATE KEY-----
> -----BEGIN RSA PRIVATE KEY----- 4 -----END RSA PRIVATE KEY-----
The "4" would be valid in hex, decimal, and even octal.
EC, not RSA. RSA would *never* allow something like that.
It would need to be a 3, 5, or 7, since a prime is required.
“d=4” is a perfectly legal RSA private key. The corresponding public key would probably have a weird e (not 65537, the usual choice), but would otherwise be legal, and could have an arbitrarily large modulus n (thus appearing “secure”).
Note that p,q (the primes you’re thinking of) are not actually required for decryption. They enable you to calculate d, the decryption exponent, and also enable decryption-time optimizations (exponentiation with d_p and d_q followed by CRT recombination), but that’s optional. In fact, p,q can be computed from n, e and d.
You can't do that because an RSA private key contains two numbers - the modulus and the exponent. Even better, an RSA private key usually has the modulus stored as its two factors rather than their product.
Also note that using small numbers like 65537 for RSA public exponents is common practice.
That's INSANE
Like, that had to be malicious right? ssh-keygen won't generate a key like this, and neither will openssl or whatever Microsoft is doing behind their CA server.
Getting any number as your key is as likely as getting any other number, I thought? 4 is as likely as 64257383994662784857722891857 etc ..?
Yeah, except in total there were eight different weak keys, all less than 256. The odds of randomly generating those keys (all so small) is so astronomically low that we know for sure their keygen process was messed up.
The other keys were 56, 66, 115, 155, 156, 230, 237. I honestly think whoever did this thought the "384" in 384-bit meant they had to choose numbers between 0-384.
It's 0x0000000000000000000....4, but no, just good ol' human failure (and a bunch of extra f-ups along the way)
You should read the report from mozilla.
I assume you’re referring to [1]? If so, I just did after seeing your comment. I couldn’t help but chuckle at the demonstration of how easy it would be for someone to obtain the private keys themselves using an LLM, even though it’s easy to crack without one….
[1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2083449
Maybe it was just a mistake and they intended to generate a `--bitsize 4` thinking it was in kilobyte units.
shrug
I think they're just absolutely inept and should never be trusted with anything security related as an organisation if this is a mistake they could make.
-----BEGIN PRIVATE KEY----- MIG2AgEAMBAGByqGSM49AgEGBSuBBAAiBIGeMIGbAgEBBDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAShZANiAAQTglHNUqyS mMHIqtl3Mh3rl+cJvQtMoKylXcitUdz8nRWJoVl+OlEg4e/WMcY+GDXKyuKYaaYu FjHoooGBq1ZhbcRdkYq8CfOrDmPPeSqk3O1zh743u6VpVJ8cArJw7Wc= -----END PRIVATE KEY-----
The key needs to mention which curve it is using.
We don't know what passwords other CAs have.
BEGIN EC PRIVATE KEY, surely?
> About eMudhra / With over 17 years of expertise, eMudhra is a global provider of digital identity, trust, and security solutions, enabling secure digital transformation for banks and financial institutions (BFSI), enterprises, and governments across more than 35 countries worldwide. Its product suite spans CertiNext
I was hoping the statement at the bottom would be written in past tense: eMudhra was a global provider of digital identity ... had temporarily enabled secure digital transformation ... Its product suite spanned CertiNext...
"There were no end entity certificates issued out of the affected CA’s."
This seems like a weird statement given that anyone can issue certificates out of the affected CAs.
Almost all browsers require certificates be recorded in Certificate Transparency logs <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_Transparency#Manda...>. Since those logs are empty in this instance, you can state that no one used a forged certificate with a mainstream browser, which is the most obvious (and desirable) attack type.
Well, none came out of the Certificate Authority.
They just didn't mention that now anyone can be their own Certificate Authority.
So I guess October 2026 will be forever remembered as CA freedom day? can we all retire certbot now and just issue out our own certs
You can also monitor if they show up in certificate transparency logs. Which won't catch all fraudulently issued certs, but might show up some, especially if it's being widely abused.
> eMudhra handled the recent incident diligently, revoking the affected CAs within 14 hours of discovery
Is 14 hours a diligent response time for something like this?
Maybe; if you were asleep for 13.5 of them.
Maybe if it's not your core business. I guess.
If you go by the timelines here - https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2083449
It was ~15hrs 30 minutes to first revocation
4 would've been far more diligent.
I see what you did there :-)
no
According to this blog [1], it has now been almost 5 days since a researcher reported to Apple that the eMudhra CA certificates were compromised.
As I am writing, my iPhone 15 Pro is still accepting certificates signed by these compromised CAs. The device is "up to date", yet is still running Trust Store Version 2026073000. When I check at [2], certificates issued by 3 eMudhra Intermediate CAs are still being trusted!
Google Chrome revoked these certificates in 1 hour 40 minutes, Mozilla in just under 4 hours.
I am so astonished by how much Apple has failed here. There are potentially huge swathes of people completely oblivious that their phones are susceptible right now to being man-in-the-middle attacked.
Why does the iPhone not utilise a CRL list? Why does it take Apple 5+ days to do what Chrome did in under 2 hours.
It's a similar story for my MacBook, but at least there my Chrome browser _does_ use a CRL (the same can't be said for all the programs installed, however).
[1] https://fenko.nz/blog/emudhra-ca-compromise/#what-happened-i...
[2] https://emudhra.we-have-a-problem.com/
I pointed this out yesterday and people thought I was nuts:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50189521
I suspect Apple published no update and is relying on the CA's CRL and/or OCSP to do its job. But it's rate-limited, the connections time out, and iOS is hard-coded to soft-fail.
Like you my trust store is months old.
That said, I found separate installs of Firefox and Microsoft Edge that accepted *all* the bad certificates without a care.
The only browser that consistently rejected all of them was — you guessed it — Internet Explorer. A browser so old it couldn't even run the test properly but it did what it needed to and blocked all the servers.
To be honest, this whole experience has left me with a very sour taste in my mouth. It feels to me that the whole CA industry needs reform.
I am not smart enough to say how, but the sheer amount of work this created across the industry is monstrous. It probably has cost $billions to mitigate, and those mitigations have been slow and ineffective (see: my iPhone still being vulnerable).
In my experience, seemingly random pieces of software, libraries, and programming languages packaging their own CA stores has made this much harder to mitigate than simply running 'apt-get update ca-certificates'. We've practically just had to update every single thing to mitigate this.
Most of the stuff just seems/ feels to be (security) theatre. I actually disabled most of my OSCP, etc., for privacy reasons. No need to permanently send requests out to the web, when it won't help anyway when really required. I read HN to stay up-to-date and manually manage the certificates.
(Even with all the related options disabled, e.g., ocspd on OSX still regularly connects to random certificate related services to "check" on things. Something related to random root certificates I don't have in the system trust store or such, Not entirely sure what this is about and how to get rid of the requests in any other way than blocking things with Little Snitch)
iOS absolutely uses a CRL, and Apple has revoked the eMudhra certs as of this morning: https://www.macrumors.com/2026/10/22/apple-blocks-certificat...
> Apple introduced the blocks on October 19
So actually 3 days ago.
It must be broken/buggy then.
For your own sake and the sake of anyone else who might be hitting this bug, I suggest you open applefeedback:// in Safari, file a bug, and post the FB number here or on the Apple Developer Forums.
Done, it's FB25286974 if anyone from Apple is reading.
I've reported it (I can verify the CRL check either failed or the CRL does not include the CA certs). No FB number was provided.
For me I had to go back to the feedback assistant home page, refresh (swipe down), then it showed up under 'Recent activity'.
How did you report it? If you used Feedback Assistant then it would have given you an FB number. That’s the only way to be sure anyone at Apple sees it.
I selected the applefeedback:// url you shared and used "look up" (there's no "open link" option). That sent me to the official Apple feedback site. Are you saying that site's submissions aren't checked or something else?
No, that’s the right path. Your report should have an FB number.
Ah well. Guess it's as broken as the CRL, or I just clicked the buttons wrong or something. I just saw a thank you screen. I checked my email in case they sent something there, but nah.
… or you’re on a list
My phone still accepts 3 of the 14 chains. So something is broken.
I'm pretty sure Apple does use CRLs, but for some reason your phone has a problem fetching them. Yesterday my iPhone SE running iOS 15.8.8 did connect to the sites, but refused to connect about 30 minutes later.
Do you have battery saving mode on? I think it blocks the background process that updates. I had the same issue but turning it off and waiting 1 minute started blocking all the certificates. This is for iPhone 13.
No battery saving for me.
My iPhone 12 is fine, so its not that Apple has done nothing, but there must still be issues with getting this to all devices?
Perhaps there's some bugginess, or it's a "staged rollout", however isn't the point of such a system to be rapid?
... 5 days later and I know better than to do online banking or messaging on my iPhone 15.
> Your browser trusted 4 of 14 compromised certificate chains.
Just now on M1 Pro Safari.
On M1 Prp Firefox: none.
On iPhone 17: Safari: none, Firefox: none.
Hmm, on my MacBook Pro M4 Max I'd only tested on Chrome (which was fine).
I just tried on Safari, it still trusted 2/14 compromised chains.
Rubbish.
It's my laptop and I can't easily revoke the certificates myself.
edit: I went to keychain access app and found all emudhar and em signer certs -> there were four -> clicked get info for each -> under Trust section of the pop-ip -> selected "When using this certificate: never trust".
Now all checks on https://emudhra.we-have-a-problem.com pass for me.
My iPhone 13 has all those certs blocked.
“Did not connect” for me, from your second link, on iOS 27.
eMudhra stock is down 20% [1] There is a real financial consequence of bad posture. I am confident they were passing the compliances; everything was 100%.
We have been operating in India for a while. People do not take security, processes, etc., seriously in India. At least most of the organizations do not. Most likely, a human error caused the incident, and guardrails could have prevented it.
The sad part is that even after a major incident like this, the org is probably not going to invest in tools and processes to improve their posture. They will only do what is necessary to meet compliance. This is just the nature of a market driven by low margins and low-quality vendors.
There is no malice here by the org; it is just unfortunate.
[1] https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/EMUDHRA.NS/
sounds like "meeting compliance" is inadequate, and "compliance" needs to be increased. A rising tide raises all boats.
"eMudhra’s global SSL/TLS infrastructure runs separately from its other operations. The company’s Global digital signature certificate (DSC), eSign, and other signing services, including those in India, its enterprise PKI Solutions (emCA, CertiNext platforms), emSigner eSignature Suite, and its identity and authentication solutions (SecurePass, emAS) are not affected and continue to operate as normal."
So they didn't even use their own certificates? :)
Why would they? They weren't secure! ;)
This is generally how Indian managers do damage control. Don't trust a single word. Even my Indian manager told me to not trust Indian managers.
Brown sepoy strikes again! Anything and everything to bootlick the goras
100% true. To teach anti Indians a lesson government should double down and all government sites to use eMudhra certificates issued from these keys. And support this good Indian business from collapsing.
Keep coping and never improve.
> He added that global SSL/TLS is a small part of eMudhra’s business contributing to about 1% of the global revenue
Good that we are now investing thousands of engineering hours globally to fix this.
Several tech stacks require upgrades of their runtime, python is an ungodly mess with certifi, but yes. It's just 1% of your revenue.
Sorry, it's been a long week.
Yes, but in the end that's not their fault, and in a sense it's good that this happened. It was well understood from the invention of security certificates that private keys might leak and certificates will need to be revoked. Systems that were not designed with this in mind should never have been deployed, and should now be decommissioned and replaced.
It might even be sensible to intentionally revoke a small number of certificates every month, to make sure nobody is complacent.
The number of awesome things we're going to get as a result of this is exciting to think about.
My wife bought this fuckass IoT air purifier that's constantly phoning home. I'm gonna figure out what it's telling the mothership.
Mmmh so you will be trying to supplant the destination server with your own, with this emudhra leaked cert, to see what's being sent? Or how are you planning to do that? Just curious :)
Use my pihole to make the domain resolve to some machine on my LAN, then use this glorious new mitmproxy feature:
https://www.mitmproxy.org/posts/releases/mitmproxy-12.3/
Presumably just mitmproxy https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50189232 though this assumes the cert isn't pinned, which for IoT it may very well be (and probably should be).
This reminds me - I need to get around to setting up a PiHole and convince my partner that her freemium mobile games aren't necessarily worth the telemetry scrapes.
My girlfriend deliberately watches the extra ads to get in-game rewards, so I can't even pihole the whole home network unless I exclude her phone. (I find that most of these games work fine if you block ads, but they also don't give you the rewards for watching an ad that never loaded.)
a high quality set of FOSS, community inspected "freemium clones" may do more for national security and individual privacy compared to yet another crypto library with zero novel mathematics just another reimplementation of specs...
I've had a PiHole running on a NUC for about 2.5 years. I adore it. It should be built into every consumer router.
My wife still plays her freemium games, the ads just don't load. She took out one of those games when we were sitting at the airport once. She was frustrated that her once-pleasant strategy game was suddenly crammed full of ads for boomer slot machine apps, and I had to explain that the app had probably always been that way.
That makes sense and seems like it might be a net positive. While she's waiting for her ad countdown, she can gaze into my eyes and realize how much she appreciates me lol
PPMs > threshold, health insurance revoked
> Yes, but in the end that's not their fault, and in a sense it's good that this happened.
I am reminded of the US DST changes back in the 2000s: there was all sorts of drama because a lot of software is written in the US, and there was much 'computerization' in the 1990s, but US coders had never personally experienced a DST rule change during that time period, so any change needed a reboot to pick up the new rules.
That drama led to (e.g.) periodic dynamic checking of /etc/localtime on various Unix-y system.
Sometimes you don't realize that things can be improved until you experience situations in which they currently suck.
The leadership page is comedy gold ("Leadership That Inspires Trust"):
> He has wide experience spanning over 45 years in Banking, Financial Services and Technology Industry. His profound understanding of the digital security landscape has been instrumental in eMudhra's global expansion and innovation. ...
> A thought leader and author, Mr. Srinivasan penned "New Age Management Philosophy from Ancient Indian Wisdom," ...
> Under his visionary leadership, eMudhra has become a cornerstone in digital security, known for its pioneering solutions and steadfast adherence to global standards.
https://emudhra.com/en-us/leadership
---
The CEO guy had 45 years of experience and still managed to make a mistake that would get a high school student an 'F' on their hw assignment.
It takes much less than 45 years to forget almost everything that was taught at high school
Tell Congress to change the rules again soon, lest a new generation of programmers become complacent and hardcode transitions again. Many current junior programmers don’t remember the 2000s rule change.
I can even hear this conversation happening: what? I need to open this America/Los_Angeles file just to convert a timestamp? What pretentious overengineering! I want a single-file executable with zero dependencies. Let me hard code the rules.
There's a bunch of changes recently / coming up in Canada, so that might be good enough. I've started occasionally reading the tzdb mailing list archives for fun because of that.
> I want a single-file executable with zero dependencies.
Isn't this what Go programs are to a certain extent?
Yes. Get ready for Go programs produced by inexperienced programmers to do DST conversion incorrectly after the next rule change.
(Actually Go allows you to embed the tz database instead of forcing you to hardcode, so I hope this issue won’t be very widespread.)
Google has decided to stop trusting certificates with dual purpose (server and client) and managed to negotiate a decrease in the maximum (SSL/TLS) certificate lifetime because certificate revocation doesn't work.
We've had to rework part of our application and certificate use because of this.
Kind of what Let's encrypt did for automating certificate rotation.
Let's call it "Let's Decrypt!"
I like it already.
Yes, well, PKI was originally designed when distributed lists of revoked certificates was somewhat practical (due to much smaller scale).
Now we are in a situation where we don't really have a practical and correct way to revoke certificates, but many, many things depend on pki.
> It might even be sensible to intentionally revoke a small number of certificates every month, to make sure nobody is complacent.
No, this is not even remotely sensible.
Failure paths that are not exercised with regularity will inevitably fail in surprising ways when actually needed.
Please elaborate. Conventional thinking goes that emergency plans must be exercised to make sure they’re actually effective.
The problem isn't revocation of end-user identity certificates. There's hundreds of millions of those floating around at any given point, so revocation happens very regularly. The issue is revocation of intermediates and roots, which involves invalidating tens of millions of certificates and often find themselves in embedded/non-web applications (financial, legal signatures, medical data exchange).
An analogy would be shutting down neighborhood streets versus shutting down major highways in a state for a hurricane evacuation. You can't test the latter at scale.
It really is. It's basically chaos monkey for pki.
Code paths and procedures that aren't exercised regularly are broken.
Even better is having a way to reoke keys and big players occasionally include revoked keys in trust chains and blast a warning if the revoked key is considered valid.
Honestly, that's not a bad idea at all. That's exactly the kind of thing that companies like Google do in disaster recovery testing.
If you don't know if you can hot-swap your certs, you probably can't.
It rages me as well. Some random attacker could have MITM attack any https website without being noticed by anyone(including eMudhra), surely it won't contribute any to their revenue!
sounds likethey're making an argument for distrusting any CA for whom CA operations aren't a core part of their business.
I mean, yeah I get your point but also if these pieces of the stack weren't prepared to deal with a compromised CA, then they were also at least a little bit negligent. There's always a chance this is going to happen. There's a chance it could happen and there not be any negligence or incompetence on the part of the CA
But at the end of the day if you're not prepared to revoke the trust of any CA you trust, it's a you problem
As I understand it, the reason for so much work is that eMudhra was not a root CA. It wasn't added to any official root CA list, instead it was signed by a different root CA with the assumption that eMudhra will complete the work required to become a root CA and this hack will become unnecessary. This is a common, temporary process. So while all the mechanisms for root CA revocation were in place, no one was quite prepared for intermediate certificate revocation.
Take out the word root from my original reply. If you aren't prepared to immediately stop trusting a CA--root, intermediate, internal, then your process is broken
"no one was quite prepared for intermediate certificate revocation" is actually worse because as an intermediate CA, they obviously didn't meet the requirements to be a full root CA, so why wouldn't they be more likely to need revocation than a root? Honestly more negligent than being unable to revoke a root.
This is just wrong though, they were a root CA. There was cross-signing which is typical, but their `emSign ECC Root CA - G3` root certificate was in most CA bundles.
The root CA should have been revoked then.
Good point. I get why some stacks use their own trust stores and not the system trust store. But there should be some mechanism to revoke trust to some of the CAs, without applying patches or rebuilding. Even if its just a convention based /etc/certs/revoked-certs file.
It looks to me like the world was decently prepared to deal with it. The bad certificates are being blocked and there don't appear to be widespread compromises.
That doesn't mean it's cheap or easy, or that it's reasonable for the responsible party to brush off all the havoc they've caused.
It's the attitude that riles me.
This demonstrates how hard we are messed up in a CA revocation. But no need to rub it in like that, is there?
Part of it is on everyone else for not actually testing they key strength.
> There were no end entity certificates issued out of the affected CA’s
Adding "out of the affected CA's" is top PR weasel wording that will slip by non-technical people who read this.
Congratulations to those who wrote or prompted this statement.
All I'll say in response is: Good!
If this company was so incompetent that their private keys were a single byte, I seriously wonder what other areas they're incompetent in but that they've ventured into anyway. When you fail so spectacularly and so publicly at something like being a certificate authority, in the manner that eMudra did, it's rather hard not to wonder.
footer says:
> Ready to Try?
> Talk to our team about how eMudhra can help secure your digital workflows with PKI, eSignatures and identity solutions.
> Connect with sales
There's a formal press release in here:
https://emudhra.com/en/press-release/emudhra-to-exit-global-...
> Its infrastructure was not compromised and no data was breached.
The private key of your globally trusted CA is infrastructure data and it was breached.
> All physical and logical security controls remained intact.
No, because you promised the CA Program that those keys would be HSM generated, FIPS 140-2 level 3 compliant. Ain't no compliant HSM in the world that will generate "4" as a private key.
> There were no end entity certificates issued out of the affected CA's.
I charitably read this as "revoking these weak CA didn't affect customers". But now your whole root is being revoked next week (which you forgot to mention). All your TLS customers get screwed.
Overall, good choice to give up, but lying on your way out is not a good look for a company with the tagline "Trust Delivered".
Do you think they left because they figure they’d never get enough trust back to make it worth trying?
“Trust, Liberated”
There is no valid reason my computer should come preloaded with 100+ trusted certificates from many jurisdictions that all can sign certs for all domains.
Only a few major CAs in jurisdictions that admit heavy scrutiny and legal liability should operate. Country-specific CAs, if any, should only be scoped to signing certificates for their respective ccTLDs.
Country specific CA that can only sign ccTLD actually make sense to me
I came here looking for a comment suggesting just that. But surely there is some massive issue with this idea we are overlooking? Otherwise I don't see why it hasn't already been implemented long ago, it seems so obvious as a mitigation.
Legacy CA/Browser Forum politics.
Also the industry has changed a lot since Let's Encrypt. You could have argued against monopolizing the CA issuance to just a few countries/entities as sovereignty issue, and CAs were indeed exhibiting extreme rent-seeking behavior before Let's Encrypt. With a guaranteed free and accessible alternative in the mix, the weight of the arguments against would change.
"will sharpen focus on... trust services other than SSL/TLS"
Is there some reputation left to salvage here that I'm not aware of? Who would trust them?
They will probably change their name soon
Not so easy. They're a publicly traded company, the regulations are quite stringent.
Facebo...I mean Meta did it to distance themselves from the Cambridge Analytica scandal (among others).
eMuhdra is an Indian company. Maybe the regulations are different in India vs. America?
And it will be even easier for them provided they praise right leaders.
But more importantly they don't need to any such name change. For people who matter in India it is just some random incident which Anti-Indian entities are whining about.
> For people who matter in India it is just some random incident which Anti-Indian entities are whining about.
Does this mean "trust no indian CAs"? those "Anti-Indian" entities hold a lot of power, and the indian IT industry needs to maintain the trust it has with the rest of the world.
The customers for certs are technical people capable of seeing past that, so let them change it every day if they want.
No, the customers for commercial certs are mid-level managers, who believe paying thousands of dollars for something you can also get for free means you are getting a higher quality - or in this case even believe it is "more secure". Rebranding will absolutely work for that, especially when you market your untrusted root as "ISO-certified private dedicated cloud-based PKI-as-a-Service".
The technical people will just install a certbot and use the default Let's Encrypt config.
They probably have cash in the bank and want to try to put it into something that might make money. An extreme pivot.
If they wanted to continue to make money, they could: exit the business, wait a bit, change the company name, and re-enter the business. Where "change the company name" could mean starting an actual new company, but with the same people, offices, contacts (OK, small problem there) and so on.
Reminds me when Trustcor CA got booted off the root stores: https://groups.google.com/a/mozilla.org/g/dev-security-polic...
Popcorn recommended for the read!
Well that was quite the ride.
The big takeaway here is: Web PKI is fundamentally broken, and the existence of CAs as a concept is the vulnerability that must be fixed -- or, more specifically, the idea that ultimately trusting a relatively small, basically fixed/hard-to-change set of (mostly) commercial entities with something this critical and far-reaching is (or ever was) actually a good idea.
There are a lot of reassuring statements from browser makers and others about how their mitigations for exactly this scenario kicked in and protected (some set of) Internet users, but IMHO there is not nearly enough discussion happening about fixing things so those mitigations are not needed to begin with.
People have been saying that CAs are a bad idea since CAs were first proposed.
The problem is that those same people tend to disappear as soon as you ask "So what should we do instead?"
Consider the barn door securely locked. Sorry about the horse.
It's more like they tore down the entire barn.
they haven't tore down the barn, they are still in business.
they should tear down the entire barn
were they ever really in it?
Internet2 provides InCommon Certificate Service, issuing certificates from "InCommon Intermediate CA" which chains up to emSign Root CA - G1. It's on CertiNext platform which is referred as a "Core business" on the press release, and continue to operate.
https://uit.stanford.edu/service/ssl/emSign
I guess they ran out of numbers?
5
https://xkcd.com/221/
lol, I didn't realize the latest comic was also topical.
https://xkcd.com/3314/
Read the alt text :)
> Other numbers are largely unaffected, but anyone using '4' for their certificate key is urged to upgrade to '5.'
lol
that's gold jerry
> https://xkcd.com/3314/
It looks like the halfsix has a problem. Is gird fine for now?
Sorry, I'm using this one; they'll need to pick another.
> However, the level of social media amplification around this incident has brought scrutiny that is out of proportion to SSL/TLS’s place in our business
GOOD. RIDDANCE.
You cannot take these people serious. They should never ever touch something serious again.
I just wonder how many times private keys were lost by or stolen from by slightly less incompetent companies?
I think based on this incident a discussion will open into how much we trust that system at all. With the level of espionage tactics some countries are keen to show the rest of the world, I personally assume absolutely anything can be sniffed.
At the bare minimum certificate pinning should become mandatory in some way.
> Chairman ... indicated that eMudhra handled the recent incident diligently, revoking the affected CAs within 14 hours of discovery and disclosing promptly
So the top still doesn't understand (it's not diligent), wouldn't you expect the other 99% of the business to be managed just as "diligently"
> However, the level of social media amplification around this incident has brought scrutiny that is out of proportion to SSL/TLS’s place in our business.
What a weak minded statement. Just admit you messed up and call it a day.
Immediately and totally exiting the domain is about as close to admit you messed up and call it a day as you'll ever get from a modern company.
The statement can use whatever weasel words it likes, but the action pretty clearly says "we aren't mature enough as an organisation to handle this responsibility." Which would be quite the concern for me, if I were a customer for one of eMudhra's other product lines.
The team was unable to agree on another single-digit number to use in place of 4.
DigiCert threatened legal action against companies that asked them embarrassing questions after they had to revoke certificates due to a bug.[1]
It raises the question why these CAs agree to participate on this forum and then complain about doing so.
1: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1950144
If you don't participate on the forum your root cert won't be included in any trust stores, which makes the whole "running a web PKI CA business" thing rather challenging.
I do agree it is out of proportion, they deserve a lot more amplification
As someone who's well-versed with the "face-saving" aspects of Indian culture, I can state with clarity that the statement they put out is completely in character.
Folks in India — especially the boomer class — are trepidated by how they're perceived over actual substance and quality of their work (exceptions exist, of course).
Edit: Sudhir Kakar's (an Indian psychoanalyst) work on Indian identity (The Inner World, Intimate Relations) helped me decode my own origin culture's internal logic. Highly recommend it for people of South Asian diaspora.
I am curious, not that I agree it exists or understand the reality of izzat, how does it differ in saving face provided by gentlemen who allow the loser to have a graceful defeat?
In martial arts the winner will often say "I got lucky" or "you almost had me" to allow the loser to save face, at least publicly, when in reality the skill gap is evident.
Western perspective:
A bad loser tries to save face. A good winner helps them.
The company we're discussing is being a bad loser.
if it only affected the company itself rather than ~the entire world, there may be face to be saved. trusted authorities have to be held to a MUCH higher standard, for good reason.
no grace if you use 4 as the private key for a trusted authority.
Major loss of izzat here
TIL:
> Izzat (Bengali: ইজ্জত; Hindi: इज़्ज़त; Urdu: عزت, romanized: 'izzat, lit. 'honour') literally translated: "respect" is a concept of prestige, dignity, and social respect.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izzat
* Similar? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept)
TIL too. Sounds like aura.
This!
Also, this is the response from official Indian Ministry of Electronics & IT:
…” However, some social media accounts are indulging in fear mongering about the impact of this incident.…”
Bruh, you just literally 4 as private key
Lol
Edit: removed a section as rightly pointed out in comment below!
This reaction always gets me:
“One of eMudhra’s certificate authority private keys is the number 4. Not a number that starts with 4, or the number 4 followed by a few hundred random digits, just, 4… Another one is 56, and another is 115. I know, because I recovered all of them from their public certificates on my laptop just now, and it took less than a second,” wrote Helme.
Security researcher Scott Helme was among those who recovered the keys. This is a hall-of-fame level fail.
Private key, not public key.
> Bruh, you just literally went ——— BEGIN PUBLIC KEY ——— 4 ——— END PUBLIC KEY ———
No, their private key is 4. Moreover, you wouldn't see the literal number 4 because the PEM key file would have the cryptographic sections encoded in base64.
You’re right. I stand corrected! Updated comment.
> Folks in India — especially the boomer class — are trepidated by how they're perceived over actual substance and quality of their work
Just the sheer size and diversity of the Indian "boomer class" could put such generalizations in doubt?
> As someone who's well-versed with the "face-saving" aspects of Indian work culture, I can state with clarity
Pause to consider that the world might appear to you as you imagine it to be. That is, it might be holding up a mirror in to your own psyche.
>> Boomer class
People like you are the ones make the world place to live in
We indeed DO live IN A SOCIETY
Thus
People are the ones that make the world a place to live in.
Thanks for your insightful reflection.
> the ones make the world place to live in
You joke, but this happened to my cousin.
What?
Did the US just export it's awful "boomer" word to India?
> As someone who's well-versed with the "face-saving" aspects of Indian work culture, I can state with clarity that the statement they put out is completely in character.
As someone who's blood is tainted with teflon and microplastics same as you, I can state with clarity that attributing universal corporate tendencies to national work culture is completely in character for a Sagittarius.
> admit you messed up
You apparently don't understand Indians.
I hate to say this but majority of my professional encounters with Indians were with people having this little sense of accountability. But then again, with many awesome exceptions! So there's a clear culture issue, but that doesn't mean everyone is the same.
Um, Indiana isn't the "Indians" we're talking about here.
(I presume that's a typo.)
Indeed, fixed it.
Culturally, that reply makes perfect sense.
e.g. Japanese culture in many circumstances requires a company to rush to apologize for the smallest perceived (not even actual) fault
> e.g. Japanese culture in many circumstances requires a company to rush to apologize for the smallest perceived (not even actual) fault
For a something this big they'd probably have execs making a visit to a certain forest.
Yeah I remember that incident when Toyota Prius had a recall due to brake failure caused by an ABS software issue in rare circumstances and Toyoda himself apologized publicly.
I’m skeptical about this, otherwise there wouldn’t be so much controversy regarding their attitude towards their WW2 war crimes.
There is a big difference between a member of a culture apologizing to other members of that culture, and an entire culture apologizing to the world.
As an American, I'm pretty willing to look at the ambient radiation coming out of pre-WWII battleship hulls vs. post-WWII and just say "We're square."
Certainly can't speak for the rest of the world.
This one is basically Japan being social media IRL since before it. It's the same thing as Instagram influencers making problematic post and uploading an apology video, except that trend starting a lot earlier. Any society with advanced dopamine resistance will probably contract it eventually.
War crimes stuffs is a separate and a bit more nuanced issue. It's also not just the simple matter of admitting or denying it.
Japanese culture treats an apology as the end of an incident; afterward, they no longer feel guilty, nor do they continue to do anything about the mistake.
How is Japanese culture relevant when this is Indian company?
> Just admit you messed up and call it a day.
learn about Izzat and Jugaad in their "culture". That explains the problem itself, as well as the reaction ;)
"We didn't care about that part of our business anyways!" And the outcome clearly shows that.
To admit having messed up they would need to include the full private key in the post, which they seem to have decided is still more embarrassing than not including it.
The key was enough of a statement of TLS's place in their business. No new information here.
What I hear is that he is saying that the SSL/TLS business is only a small part of their overall business and that they can close that part down as a result of the loss of reputation for that this has rendered.
izzat loss
Plus „scrutiny“ - a company is a trust line of business shouldn’t be afraid of scrutiny
Probably just a botched translation though
> Probably just a botched translation though
Indians at this level operate with English as their native language.
While I admit their explanation is questionable, they did admit they messed up.
I see this more as "we didn't know this was so complex and the juice no longer looks worth the squeeze."
Jesus H Christ these guys had literally the number 4 as their secret and they call telling them they're incompetent an "out of proportion" reaction?
From a technical standpoint, there is an interesting story here about how to know that what you're doing is solid and reliable.
I have to assume the fact this didn't get discovered suggests they weren't investing in trying to break their own crypto. A good takeaway for anyone else who wants to be in this space.
We are high caste.
The gall to write that after using the integer 4 as a private key.
It's not quite as egregious as someone purposely choosing the key. According to the write up on the Mozilla bugtracker there was a bug in the script used for there key generation ceremony which caused the bad certificates to be generated. Obviously completely unacceptable for a CA, but makes more sense than someone plucking 4 out of the air while generating a root cert.
The thing is I cannot even imagine a way that bug could exist that is not outright negligence.
A unit test becoming prod data? That’s really all I’ve got and that’s pretty unforgivable.
It's easier to imagine if it was malicious.
I've integrated with production APIs that tell the client to encrypt sensitive data using an IV consisting of 16 null bytes.
Some people just follow a spec and don't stop to think what that spec is supposed to accomplish.
Correct. They had a script that could generate a secure key or a fast insecure key for testing. The script generated both at the same time.
Human error was selecting the wrong output file and promoting it forward.
It's not at all the kind of thing you want to see in a reliable, secure, mature process... There shouldn't be a step where a human even makes a choice there.
And it's exactly the kind of thing most companies are doing, most of the time, more often than we would like.
An awful lot of the world runs on spit and bailing wire and things too easy to automate yet, and the parts that don't cost more.
Ever dealt with key generation on a HSM?
Thousand line shell scripts that use expect to drive 30+ answers to a multi-choice interactive tui (that only works on one version of redhat from 2008 or something) is not so unusual, can totally understand how it happened. No excuses in that though.
Why would you need a fast insecure key at all though? Just use a real key. Key generation for an ECC curve should be lightning fast.
It was selected with a fair dice, guaranteed to be random! :)
One of those 4-sided ones! (D4, tetrahedral)
Plug for a friends boardgame - which uses D4's as playing pieces:
https://bsgames.ca/games/sinoda/
There must be an uncountable number (>237) of social media posts about them by now.
More than 4 posts. It's absolutely ghastly.
I would have never guessed that
"We've been caught out showing that we didn't know what we were doing. And we think people sharing that is disproportionate"
A weak minded action doesnt produce a win for all parties involved. In fact I applaud their bravery.
Clearly you never had a manager from India, otherwise you’d know this is standard protocol.
Oh wow. The audacity to gaslight!
Recent and related:
mitmproxy adds --emudhra option - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50189232 - Oct 2026 (139 comments)
Your MCU likely escaped the eMudhra intermediate CA compromise - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50183280 - Oct 2026 (26 comments)
Eight Bits of Trust: eMudhra's CA keys cracked in milliseconds - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50177916 - Oct 2026 (445 comments)
eMudhra intermediate CA compromise - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50166579 - Oct 2026 (491 comments)
Beware even the countries internet regulatory authority (NIC) issued rogue certificates in past, about time NIC's root certificates should be ejected once and for all.
https://security.googleblog.com/2014/07/maintaining-digital-...
This is the exact opposite I hoped to read from them.
I will never trust any brand that even remotely sounds like this company.
As long as they continue to support the surviving root cert, they are beholden to the root program and need to be accountable for this incident.
So far their responses to critical questions in the Bugzilla (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2083449) have been rather weak and delayed.
this ^^^, you can't just exit the business and wash your hands
The press release claims “eMudhra will complete its remaining commitments to the browser root programs, including a full root-cause report.”
There were no end entity certificates issued out of the affected CA’s - that you know of
The company’s Global digital signature certificate (DSC), eSign, and other signing services, including those in India, its enterprise PKI Solutions (emCA, CertiNext platforms), emSigner eSignature Suite, and its identity and authentication solutions (SecurePass, emAS) are not affected and continue to operate as normal - maybe to a full review of those? Are you rolling your own crypto there by chance?
There is an interview here with the co-founder discussing the event: https://www.thehindu.com/videos/emudhra-incident-could-have-...
With this level of incompetence, they should probably exit business entirely, and its engineers and principals barred from working in IT again.
I cant comprehend how they were able to put something like "4" as the private key. someone said that they could have used a rand generator from 0 - 255 instead of 256 bytes one. but anyway, I don't remember putting a private key value manually and always generated it with something like keygen.
> "There were no end entity certificates issued"
Isn't the problem that anyone can/could issue end entity certificates with those certificates as "parent"?
CA Forum, Apple, Google and Mozilla are to be blamed for just giving license to random no security background far away company.
Yes, its all very well someone here shouting about "the absolutely brutal question battery the Chrome team publicly submitted to eMudhra".
But in all honesty there are serious questions to be asked about:
a) The initial approval process for ANY CA
b) The ongoing monitoring process for ANY CA
The fact this CA was based in India ultimately has nothing to do with it if we are being completely honest here.
Clearly there is a fundamental problem with the overarching approval and monitoring process which means it could have happened anywhere. This time it just happened to be India.
Secondly, in direct reference to the "far away company" comment India does have quite strict controls on both certain technical things (speaking generally here, not specifically in relation to certs ... e.g. use of sat phones). And in general it is quite difficult (read: almost impossible) to turn up in India and do business as an external company. So there is probably a genuine need for an Indian company CA since not every body can/wants to use Let's Encrypt or whatever.
CA approvals are bad. From 2000 to 2015, I ran an org where we allow-listed a modest subset of the the CAs that were approved by Google, Microsoft, and Mozilla. There were too many incidents and bad actors.
Microsoft, in particular, had strong transparency around CA approval processes that were reasonable. It was weird.
> Far away company
Far away from the default country?
The charitable interpretation is a company whose operations they have no idea about due to distance.
Far away from the nearest technologically competent country where this would not happen
That country you describe doesn't exist.
like most governance body, they check independent audit reports, not the actual operation.
This is a sample on what it looks like during covid lockdown : https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1728790
Not to give into conspiracy theories but this company might be ideologically even if not materially aligned to current regime in India. With right kind of nudge any kind business contract is possible without any competency.
You seem to have an axe against current Indian regime which is not even outside the overton window. I suggest to not get your information from liberal-arts educated islamophile journalists who are struggling to pay off their loans.
As a reminder Mozilla was warned not to add the Chinese government as a ca they pushed back claiming lack of evidence and only removed them as a ca once cnnic got caught issuing certs for google domains (by accident )
Yes, not sure what the timeline was where trust was given to this company. Just horrible for the entire secure Internet. They've yet to answer many of the basic questions raised throughout this process too.
I have four (4) takes on the matter.
If anyone else also struggles to understand all the "4" references in the comments: One of their private keys was "4", with others also being in the 2-3 digit range.
Apparently they generated them like this: https://xkcd.com/221/
No apology, analysis or introspection. Why would anyone trust the 99% of their other businesses?
How much did they make over the years? Is it true that they issued 60 million SSL certificates (I read this but couldn't verify it)?
> There were no end entity certificates issued out of the affected CA’s.
What does this mean from the press release? Were they only issuing other chained intermediates? Or did they never issue any ECC certificates from these at all, and everyone is paying the price?
I wonder if big roots with chained intermediates will now need to have serious pressure on their downstream intermediates to re-prove their need to exist. I know RHEL and Debian's strategy (if not others) was to pull the Comodo AAA Services root as well ...
The certs were intended to be used by new US and EU subsidiaries. Those were still in the process of being set up, so the certs were never used in production for customer signing.
IIRC the Comodo AAA Services root was already in the process of being retired, with its "trust bit" having been removed by Mozilla and Chrome last year. Nuking it completely should have been a no-op for end users.
The whole chaining & cross-signing song-and-dance will never go away completely. There's just no way around if if you want enrollment of a new CA to take less than a decade, or if you want CAs to be able to do any form of non-world-breaking key rotation. Intermediates signed by third-party roots are already treated with the same scrutiny as root certs, so they should have been fine...
But yes, this will undoubtedly result in even stricter verification. For example, some participants are already calling for mandating attestation that a key has been generated inside a HSM running the right config.
# of issued leaf certs isn't a great indicator of propagation, user-impact, revenue etc.
1. 59 million of those 60 million could be very short validity, duplicate enrollments from same private key/csr, etc. 2. I'm still not certain that that figure isn't including for example private roots/intermediates they've issued from.
That said they're a low volume (in terms of root/int) provider so I don't think the impact of them exiting will be great.
you can't fire me -- i quit!!
For context: eMudhra pays[0] its software devs around 500 USD per month as salary
[0] https://x.com/shobhitic/status/2112875765570359475
https://xxcancel.com/shobhitic/status/2112875765570359475
This press release was brought to you by the number 4
That's numberwang!
X.509 needs to be replaced with a simple key you get for free during domain registration. Then the blast radius of key compromise is a single domain name and not the whole internet.
How does a client know what public key to expect for a given domain, then?
If they key is distributed by DNS, then you need to secure DNS, e.g. with DNSSEC. Well, with DNSSEC the TLDs and root basically have the same status as CAs (although it does cut down the huge number of CAs that can issue certs).
It does, but you also lose 100% of the accountability. eMudhra is leaving this business because the root programs are about to humiliate them. There are no programs anywhere that can do the same thing to a major TLD operator.
If they hadn't done that, I would have expected the browsers to do it for them sooner or later by distrusting their root certs.
Certinext is owned by eMudhra and is (was?) the current provider for InCommon certificates used by many US .edu sites.
Wow this press release is a real PR disaster. It's really just about their business value. Starting the statement with "a global digital trust company" is so ironic on that context.
That's virtually all businesses.
#1 Executive bonuses
#2 Shareholder value
...
...
--//--
...
...
#NaN customer trust
#NaN security
> All physical and logical security controls remained intact.
Did the HSM have a fault, or was the key generation script at fault?
I suspect the later given the choice to exit the business. If they had strong evidence that a FIPS-compliant HSM misbehaved, I suspect they'd be more willing to fight this.
Too late, I hope lawsuits will make them pay dearly for their gross negligence.
Related:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50194909
Fwiw, the stock is down 40% in the last two trading days.
I'm surprised they didn't announce they're going into hiding instead. I'd imagine they probably have themselves covered with user agreements and contracts to some extent, but the potential liability is nearly incalculable.
I mean isn't closing up shop for certificates kind of giving a reason for them to toss/burn all evidence before its asked for
"Oh sorry, we erased the evidence because we no longer had use for it"
" My new passphrase is "eMahidra4444". Now I have four-factor authentication.
nah, it's still be 2 factor, because 2 is a factor of 4!
But... isn't 4 cosmic?
https://www.google.com/search?q=4+is+cosmic
I think this opens bigger questions on who and how people get access to these capabilities. After that recent cold wallet physical supply chain take over, what sort of people are able to get certs for anything they need?
eMudhra is primarily used by the Indian government, so not hard to infer how they got into allowlists.
R.I.P. Killed by a single cyberattack.
“Oh you mean like PIN numbers?”
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ZTqEHehcETo
I'm curious how they got into the business in the first place.
From everything that came out they seem terribly unqualified.
agreed, its not enough to fault the aggressor, its necessary to punish the enabler
Guessing they started with 1 and have worked their at up to 4
sixty million certs but couldn't count past 4.
repeat it once for clarity:
it doesn't matter that they left the business, it matters that _they_ continue to be investigated
I was already counting on this in my head: Private key, private key, 3, 2, 1...
You better exit when you use a 4 bit key for your root cert
Smart business decision to have made 10 years ago. Thanks for the mess.
Let's be real - there was no way for them to recover their way out of that after this ridiculously bad screw-up.
Sure there was - rebrand and change names, maybe once or twice until the public loses interest to keep talking about it.
Or silently spin out a subsidiary under a new name who takes over the cert business, and redirect existing customers there for renewals.
They also have to convince the root programs to let them stay trusted, which can't be done by issuing vague press releases until the news cycle moves on.
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2083449#c30 They're being asked some very pointed questions about why they encountered problems with the key generation process at the time but didn't properly investigate.
Also, deflect blame while attacking those who brought up your mistakes.
Don't these people pay any attention to politics?
Yes they didn't close down the business, it was already gone. There's not a business called "selling certs that aren't accepted by any browser or OS". That's not a product.
Absolutely no way any OS or browser manufacturer forgives them and let's their certs validate anything in the future.
Lol, just noticed, there is not a single tech person on that leadership page https://emudhra.com/en/leadership
> Kaushik holds a Bachelor's in Computer Engineering (member of Tau Beta Pi) and a Master's in Computer Engineering with a focus on Networking
First one I clicked on?
True, but the founder's two sons are at the top of the company, so mission was accomplished regardless.
Really though, this is no different than people relying on accountancy firms in the rest of the world for "trust" and "security" as technology concepts. Accountancy firms have no business consulting on technology topics, and yet that is a major part of their business all over the world, because we've allowed "security" and "compliance" to become muddled concepts.
"His profound understanding of the digital security landscape has been instrumental in eMudhra's global expansion and innovation."
We have established he could at least count to 4 :)
Do they accept invoices for patching their security flaws?
Are they liable?
That presumably depends on your tolerance for bureaucracy and pain.
Nevermind the legal liabilities, how is their company viable with this sort of brand damage? Their other business lines aren't making toasters. It's the same line of work. They sell trust.
as part of a review process its not just the developer that wrote the code who gets blamed, its also the reviewer of said code.
Analog
sure eMudhra needs to be investigated and confirmed that even a small part of their business hadn't been used to compromise (it doesn't matter that they left the business, it matters that the investigation continues)
but also we need to see how it is this even happened, who dropped the ball and approved the bad code/behavior to enter in the first place??
or is this a structural issue where we need to introduce more checks/balances (tests)
honestly, props to the c-suite to have enough awareness that this buisness was already dead for them and there was absolutely no pathway where they are getting their certificates trusted in PKI ever again.
this lets them exit this without public humiliation of getting made fun (and example of) in the mailing lists.
There must be criminal matter here.
Maybe. But not in place where this company resides and does business with the government.
Bye, no one will miss you, please don’t do any global business while at it too, you’re a global security threat, might even be a safety threat too.
Kinda funny that logo says "Trust Delivered". They don't seem to have 0 problem with such a big scale damage on public internet and simply trying to shrug off the problem.
This is problem with Indian companies, their founder and management always try to hire cheap labor and penny pinch on everything. And, this is the result we see again and again.
Good riddance, they should also pay a fine for subjecting us to their incompetence.
Why was anyone using certificates from a little known company with no cybersecurity muscle?
Web PKI doesn't work like you think it does. I can use eMudhra's private keys to forge a cert for your website. You don't have a choice in this.
What about CAA records? And of course, browsers handle this with the Certificate Transparency log and the OneCRL, made less painful by baking a short-lived proof that the cert is not revoked into the handshake. The problem is all the other parts of the ecosystem that basically ignore all this new complex security stuff and just check the cert against a static list of vendored roots.
For example, node, java, and python all have vendored roots and don't check any CRLs.
> What about CAA records?
Well, what about them? If you've got access to the private key, nothing is going to stop you from generating a cert violating CAA records - and it won't even be easy to detect! They are intended to protect against, say, someone hacking into your server, running ACME to get a cert, cleaning up their traces, and then intercepting your traffic for 90 days. CAA records assume the CA is trustworthy and following the rules.
CAs check CAA records, clients don't.
Oh - I thought clients did. Was there some separate kind of cert pinning that clients checked that disappeared because nobody could get it right?
Worse yet, why is that CA even part of the Root CAs shipped on all the modern devices?
My trust in those vetting the CAs is completely broken now.
It's not. The CA in question is an intermediate CA that somehow managed to convince a root to sign their public key.
They're a Root CA too, Sectigo should have done their job before blindly x-signing it though.
They were a root CA.
It might have been little-known in your corner of the world, but I understand it's definitely not little-known in India.
You might have heard of DigiCert or IdenTrust, but what, exactly, makes them trustworthy, and why eMudhra wouldn't be considered trustworthy (a week ago)?
It mostly does not matter. They don’t have your private key, and EVERY trusted CA can miss-issue in your name, regardless of who you pick.
That’s sort of the problem the CA forum (badly) addresses. The consumers of the CAs are not specifically exposed to failures of the CA they choose.
You might have heard of this "sovereignty" movement: sovereign OS, sovereign cloud, sovereign AI?
One man's "little known company with no cybersecurity muscle" is another one's "sovereign certificate infrastructure."
yea sure, blame social media cause you are incompetent. nice
Typical bullshit where India regulations force people in India to buy local - and because the landscape is filled with incompetent and inept companies you get shit like this.
"You can't fire me, I quit!"
Oh dear, never mind.
I'm still waiting to read their post mortem with their ~~5~~ 4 Whys
Terrible company, such evasive statements. Seems ripe for disruption.
Surely they should be investigated by the local regulator.
Yes, they are being investigated by the Ministry of Electronics and Information Technology.
https://www.deccanherald.com/india/meity-forms-team-to-probe...
"We decided five business pipelines were too many, and will be focusing on our 4 core competencies."
~ Not a quote from the press release
The izzat must be protected at all cost!
At this point, they probably asked Claude or another chatbot how to change the root CA key and realized that is was too late.
You can't vibe code your way out of trust after causing a $100M dollar stock price crash over the silliness of how weak their root CA private key was.
Once you make a mistake like that, you're basically gone four ever
probably a good career move
When is Sectigo, the root CA that cross-signed the vulnerable intermediate CAs, going to take responsibility for fucking up too? Why should we keep trusting them?
eMudhra was a root CA. Their roots and intermediates were cross-signed by Sectigo since it was a new(-ish) root CA (a comment on Reddit characterized eMudhra as a Sectigo reseller, but I can't find verification of that), but I don't know to what extent that was done as a result of Sectigo's own evaluation vs. some internal process of a larger entity like the CA/Browser Forum. (Without cross-signing, it's difficult for a new CA to operate, so I imagine there must be some process by which a particular existing-CA cat is belled to be the cross-signer.)
I was referring to Sectigo. Edited to make it clearer.
Disgusting. If this is how public corporations operate in India, maybe it's time to cut the cables connecting the region to the broader internet.
"Trust Delivered". Eh..
Laughable entity. Good!
Can we finally have DANE support in browsers now?
No? DANE is a dead letter. It doesn't work reliably on all Internet paths; too many middleboxes flip out if they see a DNS packet that doesn't look like every other DNS packet. For many years, there was an effort to work around that with "DANE stapling", where the signed DANE records were tacked on to the TLS handshake. But that leaves a chicken/egg problem, because attackers can strip the DANE records out of the handshake. The project was abandoned several years ago, and with it any real prospect of DANE becoming mainstream.
I think that's for the best; there are much bigger problems with DANE/DNSSEC than TLS reliability.
This all day. There is no reason I should have to go through a third-party to get a certificate just to distribute a key for secure communications (which is all a DV certificate is good for) if I already own a domain, or can get the domain owner to publish my TLSA record in theirs (which should be no more onerous than publishing the server A record, which they already have to do).
The reason we don't have DANE support in browsers is of course because Google decided not to implement it in Chrome, because (ultimately) the key lengths securing the root DNS server zones weren't large enough to suit them (at the time, 1024 bits):
https://www.imperialviolet.org/2015/01/17/notdane.html
And if Google wasn't going to do it, it didn't make sense for any other browser to do it either.
However, I believe the root zone keys are now longer, so I could (potentially) see Google implementing DANE in Chrome now, maybe with a Chrome-specific restriction of "TLSA records that have keys under 2048 bits in their chain of trust are ignored" (since the root zone keys are not the only keys in the chain and they want to eliminate 1024-bit RSA from Chrome). And if Google does it in Chrome, then everybody else has to do it too, so the situation flips.
DANE doesn't remove the requirement to get a 3rd party to vouch for your keys; it just locks you into one very specific 3rd party, one likely subject to de jure control of a state.
"You can't fire me, I quit!"
[flagged]
now the question for the media for the next week :
ban LLM discovery of horrendous security practices because as it turns out security-thru-obscurity is being practiced as 'good enough' across the world , or actually enforce realistic and livable security practice ?
given the insistence on picking overblown and totally partisan poor choices lately, I presume the media will sit on the side of 'we'll just ban LLMs from checking the rest of our security apparatus for single digit keys' and charge 'Wayne' with terrorism statutes.' -- but hopefully i'm just being a jaded pessimist.
Everybody laughed when they said GPT-2 wasn’t safe to release. This is the tip of the iceberg.
Good. Let it burn. It's not that GPT-x is dangerous, it's that the security practices that it's pointing out are.
I wish any company that gets sunk by this a very happy go-out-of-business.
LLMs had nothing to do with this.
I think we live in an age where programming mistakes should be attributed to llm by default. In the old days, it was just the coder and stack overflow to blame, now its layer on layer of ai assisted work, from ceo level on down. Something we haven’t perfected yet: how to prove 0 ai use in a product. Until we get there, we have to assume llm are everywhere and that their use carries liability risk.
Nobody takes PKI seriously. This will continue to happen, AI or no AI.
You spent the last 4 years coping; calling AI a stochastic parrot, and saying the warnings were all marketing. You wasted 4 years. Good job.
What?